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and the chances of this thread becoming the biggest one ever are?
Straw man.
Oh, sorry - I thought that the new thing is to say "straw man" after every other post, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
Apart from anything else why would the USA want to steal neighbour's territory? They're trying to keep Mexicans out not take it over. Canada? Would Canada welcome invasion the way Austria did?
America were preparing to invade Canada just before WWII
Apart from anything else why would the USA want to steal neighbour's territory?
Especially as they have already taken the best bits of Mexico, like California and Texas.
Especially as they have already taken the best bits of Mexico, like California and Texas.
Considering the occupants of Texas, I'm sure the Mexicans wouldn't want it back.
The Mexicans will pay for the wall for example via higher tariffs (NAFTA renegotiation) or a tax on money transfers from US to Mexico (eg Western Union). Trump will find a way.
But who is going to pay for it now? Exec orders are easy but where is the funding?
Loving the naivety of building a wall to stop (illegal) immigration and drug runners.
My prediction is that both will find another way and nothing will change.
and instead of fighting drug wars , Mexico will let it happen .
America were preparing to invade Canada just before WWII
War Plan [s]Orange[/s] Red.
The Canada plans were just part of the plans for the USA to go to war with Britain.
[ [b]EDIT:[/b] wiki says that Orange was the code for the USA/Japan war plans - my mistake ]
It's hard to know, isn't it! Could a person really be that dumb?
Jamba - have your wife translate for you!
Why would I even bother to ask ?
Trump has stopped the transfer of the $220m to Palestinians which Obama/Kerry had released despite it being voted down by Congress.
@mike very cheap to borrow the $14bn if required and the taxes I mentioned will pay it off. I think he'll raise the taxes faster than the construction costs, 5% tax on sending money back to Mexico via Western Union type companies. Known to be about $24bn a year (most of it earnt by illegal immigrants and untaxed). That's $1.2bn a year. Then there is the NAFTA re-write and new tariffs etc
Loving the naivety of building a wall to stop (illegal) immigration and drug runners.
My prediction is that both will find another way and nothing will change.
They have been using quite sophisticated tunnels for a number of years now to smuggle both people and drugs. I wonder how deep underground the wall/fence/hedge will extend.
Wouldn't be surprised if they ended up with some sort of barrier tape.
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do you really believe he is going to build that wall ?
not going to be that simple , land owners not happy , Rio Grande moving all the time .
if Mexicans need to pay tax on western union , they will use something else , gangs will love the new business sending money and bringing back drugs .
even his new security adviser said it was a bad idea .
km79 - Member
They have been using quite sophisticated tunnels for a number of years now to smuggle both people and drugs. I wonder how deep underground the wall/fence/hedge will extend.Wouldn't be surprised if they ended up with some sort of barrier tape.
What's new?
Take your pick.
Fly over using ultralight etc.
Dig deep underground like a mole.
Swim like a fish.
Use false documents to cross the check points.
Buy your way in i.e. bribe your way in.
🙄
Amazon Drones?
slowoldman - Member
Amazon Drones?
Yes, that's flying over so that's been done.
Parachuting I think might work but I think not many will trust their chute ...
km79 - Member
They have been using quite sophisticated tunnels for a number of years now to smuggle both people and drugs. I wonder how deep underground the wall/fence/hedge will extend.
Wouldn't be surprised if they ended up with some sort of barrier tape.What's new?
Take your pick.
Fly over using ultralight etc.
Dig deep underground like a mole.
Swim like a fish.
Use false documents to cross the check points.
Buy your way in i.e. bribe your way in.
Well, they drove high powered sports cars through tunnels in Fast and Furious something or other; proof of concept established, I'm sure with application it'll be up and running in eighteen months.
What's new?Take your pick.
Fly over using ultralight etc.
Dig deep underground like a mole.
Swim like a fish.
Use false documents to cross the check points.
Buy your way in i.e. bribe your way in.
🙄
Completely agree with you, chewkw, the wall is nothing but bull and bluster on the part of the Doughnut. I'm surprised that you've seen the failure that wall building is though. You're normally quite blind in your support of the Doughnut.
Parachuting I think might work
Which means flying over, that's been done.
...bollocks. Nazi anti-Semitism was excessive from day 1. It's all in Mein Kampf.
Actually, in reality, many Germans didn't really understand what Hitler would do to the Jews when they voted him in and were massively ignorant in terms of how much the man actually hated them. The evolution of the holocaust, is generally regarded to have been incremental - with the final solution only being devised after other plans such as relocation failed. Had the idea of the Final Solution been discussed widely, outside of a few passages in Mein Kampf then I think many more in Germany would have found Hitler unpalatable.
I wonder how deep underground the wall/fence/hedge will extend.
Hard to know because, as usual, Trump said lots of different things at different times.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37243269 ]The BBC quoted the estimate given by a New York-based structural engineer based on a 1900 mile concrete wall, 20 feet above ground and five feet under it.[/url]
So completely impassable to anyone that doesn't own a ladder or a spade. 🙂
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captainsasquatch - MemberCompletely agree with you, chewkw, the wall is nothing but bull and bluster on the part of the Doughnut. I'm surprised that you've seen the failure that wall building is though. You're normally quite blind in your support of the Doughnut.
Actually it is not a failure. It will stop the activities for a while until someone think of a new way of crossing. The way I see it the main purpose of the wall is to frustrate and to disrupt the illegal border crossing process. Also the security of patrolling the border means there will be more jobs create for the security employment. Probably Mexico paying for that as well via indirect tax ... 😛
Nothing is totally proof but slowing down the process and to buy time is the only way. Therefore, make it as hard as possible then put another layer of security on top ... you have the will, you have the way.
slowoldman - Member
Which means flying over, that's been done.
Yes, been done so not sure how to fly over. Catapult? Someone might break their legs so that's not good.
I doubt they can fly over considering some of the A10 might be around ...
Trump also said he was going to deport all illegal immigrants - which is impossible given the numbers of them.
tjagain - Member
Trump also said he was going to deport all illegal immigrants - which is impossible given the numbers of them.
Of course it is possible. President Trump might not be able to deport all of them in one go but certainly many will have to go. It's better than not doing anything about it.
Trump also said he was going to deport all illegal immigrants - which is impossible given the numbers of them.
Probably more impossible due to their economic influence, deporting all will slowly and significantly damage a part of the economy.
captainsasquatch - Member
Probably more impossible to their economic influence, deporting all will slowly and significantly damage a part of the economy.
No damage at all. If they want cheap labour they can always have a govt to govt talk about legally having seasonal workers. Just like North Korean supplying labour to some part of the world.
Trump also said he was going to deport all illegal immigrants - which is impossible given the numbers of them.
To be fair Trump gave a figure of between 2 million to 3 million, which is what Obama managed - 2.5million to be a bit more precise.
OK Obama deported more foreigners from the United States than other US President in history but I doubt that it's impossible for Trump to match Obama's unprecedented and impressive figure. And all the more so as Obama has left behind a very effective deportation machine - the Priority Enforcement Program.
Trump has much to thank Obama for when it comes to deporting foreigners.
thats about 1% of the illegals tho isn't it?
I doubt it, unless practically all the people living in the US are illegal immigrants.
Ernie I think Obama was a bit economical with the truth as he included Mexicans denied entry at the border as "deported". Obama kept doing the rolling series of pardons as he felt the issue was just too difficult to deal with and frankly wanted to ignore it. Complicated problem as I think if a woman enters the us illegally but has child there they are an American citizen ? I think there are about 2 million people in the US illegally who have been convicted of a crime yet not deported. Certainly a didficult and longstanding problem.
A wall / fence will make a very big difference to the numbers able to come in and more agressive deportation will send many the other way.
Actually it is not a failure. It will stop the activities for a while until someone think of a new way of crossing.
Seems a pretty expensive way of achieving that brief slowdown. Trump put the cost of the wall at between $10 and $12 billion (Washington Post reckoned estimated more like $25 billion).
For reference the existing 650 miles of fences cost more than $7 billion.
I suppose it's inward investment though and will support some construction jobs for quite a while.
I doubt it, unless practically all the people living in the US are illegal immigrants.
Now that's a different argument altogether.
😆ernie_lynch - Member
I doubt it, unless practically all the people living in the US are illegal immigrants.
Stolen from reddit but it made me lol...
Donald Trump steps out onto the White House lawn in the dead of winter. Right in front of him, on the White House lawn, he sees “Donald Trump Sucks” written in urine across the snow.
Well, he's pretty ticked off. He storms into his security staff’s HQ, and yells “Somebody wrote an insult in the snow on the front damn lawn! And they wrote it in urine! Whoever did it had to be standing right on the porch when he did it! Where were you guys?!” The security guys stay silent and stare ashamedly at the floor.
Trump hollers “Well dammit, don’t just sit there! Get out and find out who did it! I want an answer, and I want it tonight!”
The entire staff immediately jump up and race for the exits.
Later that evening, his chief security officer approaches him and says: “Well Mr. President, we have some bad news and we have some really bad news. Which do you want first?”
Trump says “Give me the bad news first.”
The officer says “Well, we took a sample of the urine and tested it. The results just came back, and it was Mike Pence’s urine.”
Trump says “Oh my god, I feel so... so... betrayed! My own vice president! Damn. ...Well, what’s the really bad news?”
The officer replies “Well, it’s Melania’s handwriting.”
A wall / fence will make a very big difference to the numbers able to come in and more agressive deportation will send many the other way.
Do you know the main methods of entry?
The better options though included jed bush's plan which was providing a path to citizenship for the long term ones including kids who were born there. Given the US was born from immigration they have got all precious about it.
Would this wall stop the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico, which fuels the violent inter-gang warfare there, this could actually be a good thing?
Would this wall stop the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico, which fuels the violent inter-gang warfare there, this could actually be a good thing?
I read/watched somewhere the suggestion that Mexico may as well legalize class A drugs.It could/would reduce much of their domestic drug related issues and push the responsibility squarely onto the shoulders of the US.
That'd be an interesting **** you from Pena Nieto to Trump
"Jamba - have your wife translate for you!"Why would I even bother to ask ?
Oh, I dunno - to share the joke, instead of just being the joke?
The issue is that a "physical" wall isn't actually very useful. As proven in Berlin many years ago now, you need a wall PLUS armed guards with machine guns with an uninterrupted line of sight, which means thousands of guards and guards posts.
The issue is that a "physical" wall isn't actually very useful. As proven in Berlin many years ago now, you need a wall PLUS armed guards with machine guns with an uninterrupted line of sight, which means thousands of guards and guards posts.
This. It's almost cartoonish in its naievity. I am looking forward to seeing how "beautiful" it looks though, that is of course key to its success. Hope Tommy Walsh is available, would be quite a comeback episode for Ground Force. I bet they thought they couldn't top Mandela. Ratings winner, in the chasm left by GBBO? Good luck Ant & Dec in 2020, you're f*cked. I'm on it fellas, don't worry.
*emails BBC imediately
I read/watched somewhere the suggestion that Mexico may as well legalize class A drugs.It could/would reduce much of their domestic drug related issues and push the responsibility squarely onto the shoulders of the US.
That'd be an interesting **** you from Pena Nieto to Trump
US demand for cocaine and crystal meth is a far bigger driver than any demand in Mexico.
The US drug market is worth hundreds of billions. A wall does nothing to curb that
Great!! This will have the lefties jumping up and down!!
I'm sure somebody will be along in a moment to remind us that Trump isn't a war monger and isn't wanting to be involved around the world....
Hopefully there are some steady hands as he has his first kick off with people actually running the country.
Senator John McCain, a torture survivor and co-author of a 2015 law barring the US security agencies from using interrogation techniques beyond those set out in the US army field manual, signalled his defiance.“The president can sign whatever executive orders he likes. But the law is the law. We are not bringing back torture in the United States of America,” said McCain, the Arizona Republican who chairs the Senate armed services committee.
McCain referenced explicit guarantees from Pompeo and Mattis during their Senate confirmation proceedings to follow the interrogations law and the army field manual. “I am confident these leaders will be true to their word,” McCain said.
(From the link above)
I am looking forward to seeing how "beautiful" it looks though, that is of course key to its success. Hope Tommy Walsh is available, would be quite a comeback episode for Ground Force.
I'm holding out for the DIY SOS special on the refurb of the Guantanamo Bay facility. Including a full 'sensory room' for the inhabitants.
Oregon governor signed a law banning masturbation in protest at anti abortion executive order. 😆
Oregon governor signed a law banning masturbation in protest at anti abortion executive order.
😆
Great!! This will have the lefties jumping up and down!!
I was jumping up and down about this long ago because he said as much during his campaign. Some comments here in a WP article back in Feb 2016:
"Don’t tell me it doesn’t work — torture works .. Half these guys: ‘Torture doesn’t work.’ Believe me, it works."
...
In late November, Trump said at a rally in Columbus, Ohio, that he would approve the use of waterboarding “in a heartbeat” because "only a stupid person would say it doesn’t work.""If it doesn’t work," Trump said, "they deserve it anyway, for what they’re doing."
..."Some people say it's not actually torture — let’s assume it is," Trump said. "But they asked me the question: ‘What are you going to do on waterboarding?’ Absolutely fine, but we should go much stronger than waterboarding. That’s the way I feel."
But obviously that was all just #fakenews in the liberal MSM 🙄
Torture has been banned not simply for ethical reasons but because it is unreliable. Under torture people potentially will (and do) say anything to stop what is happening to them. Therefore their 'confessions' could provide true or false information and this is why it has been banned.
Trump is displaying his ignorance with his comments.
Absolutely fine, but we should go much stronger than waterboarding.
I read the autobiography of a guy tortured by the Japanese in WW2.
He was tortured in every way imaginable, including having limbs broken.
The torture he found most harrowing was the waterboarding. Interestingly the torture that distressed his torturers the most distressing to inflict was also waterboarding.
I conclude that waterboarding is not a soft torture.
Of course trump thinks waterboarding isnt bad
Just substitute water for urine and CIA black site interrogator for world's finest Russian prostitutes and you have Saturday night at Trump towers !
It's OK May will set him straight, she's a strong supporter of human rights....
Most worrying thing in the interview re terrorist organisations is...
We’re not playing on an even field.
As far as I’m concerned we have to fight fire with fire.
😯
Though given the resources at the US's disposal the playing field is already far from even.
As far as I’m concerned we have to fight fire with fire.
Yep he said as much in that article too:
"I would absolutely authorize something beyond waterboarding."
..
He called waterboarding a "minor form" of interrogation.
..
On Cruz, Trump said that “he didn't want to get involved because he thought waterboarding was bad, so — of course it's bad, but it's not chopping off heads, folks. Okay? That I can tell you.”
..
Trump mocked Cruz for not taking a stronger stance on waterboarding. As he spoke at a rally, a woman in the audience called Cruz "a pussy" — an insult that Trump repeated to the crowd.
[url= https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-says-torture-works-backs-waterboarding-and-much-worse/2016/02/17/4c9277be-d59c-11e5-b195-2e29a4e13425_story.html ]Original WP article is here[/url]. Worth a read.
Also "interesting" the way he was asked the open question by his fellow Republican in that article:
"On that whole thing of politically correct, would you allow U.S. interrogators to waterboard terrorist prisoners in order to extract information?" Herbkersman asked.
Politically Correct?
Because apparently sticking to the Geneva Convention and not committing war crimes is just political correctness gawn mad. 😯
I'm pretty sure you could get Trump to confess to being the leader of ISIS with the right "minor form of interrogation". It definitely works if you want to find someone guilty and you're not too bothered if it's the right person
At this rate there's going to be a chapter in all modern American history books titled "Senator McCain" that starts "Remember when American politics wasn't completely mental? John McCain remembers"
Surely no reasonable person can support trump now, a man who supports torture has no place as a leader in the western world. He genuinely has no clue what he's doing, a fact that becomes more and more obvious as each day passes. Various agencies are now setting up alternative Twitter accounts to keep information flowing out, and he's been president less than a week.
I saw this on BBC news last night and had to record it. These are the chumps that voted for him. Conveniently she seems have forgotten Mark 12:31...
"a man who supports torture has no place as a leader in the western world."
True, but did a man who ordered an Extra Judicial Assassination in ****stan have a place as Western leader?
Great!! This will have the lefties jumping up and down!!
Blood lefties with their respect for human life and dignity, their rejection of unreliable interrogation methods and support for the rule of law.
Bastards the lot of them.
String em up, string em up i say!
The point when even the Daily Mash satire could so easily be true...
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/trump-has-already-pressed-fake-nuclear-button-cia-gave-him-over-a-dozen-times-20170126120990
Blood lefties with their respect for human life and dignity, their rejection of unreliable interrogation methods and support for the rule of law.
Let's see - human life and dignity, check. Unreliable interrogation methods, check. Rule of law, check.
Stone me! I never realised I was a "leftie".
Wonders will never cease.
TBH it may just be as simple as he wants to bluster but he's confident that he'll be prevented from ever actually doing anything. Not sure why he'd feel a need to do that at this point though.
True, but did a man who ordered an Extra Judicial Assassination in ****stan have a place as Western leader?
Yup. And for anyone who thinks the playing field is level...
Not sure why he'd feel a need to do that at this point though.
Because that's all he's got...
He also wants a weekly list of all crimes committed by immigrant, even if they are in the country legally.
As above anyone suporting Trump has lost touch with reality.
Surely no reasonable person can support trump now, a man who supports torture has no place as a leader in the western world
That's my point though - he quite openly campaigned on that point and people voted for him. More than that, they positively lapped it up!
TBH it may just be as simple as he wants to bluster but he's confident that he'll be prevented from ever actually doing anything.
I think that's often the case with Trump.
True, but did a man who ordered an Extra Judicial Assassination in ****stan have a place as Western leader?
Apparently. Whereas a man who stated that it would have been preferable to have a trial does not.
[quote=cchris2lou ]He also wants a weekly list of all crimes committed by immigrant, even if they are in the country legally.
As above anyone suporting Trump has lost touch with reality.
Simply stirring up hatred of all foreigners. The man is absolute 100% scum.
The man is unbelievable. He thinks that in spite of having the world's most capable military he can't fight on a level playing field and instead he's fine to resort to war crimes and defiance of the Geneva Convention?? It beggars belief.
Well that's done it. I will absolutely not be setting foot in USA for fear of being mistaken for a wrong 'un and then tortured.
The guy's barking and as for anyone who attempts to defend this moron, why don't you pop over and live there for a bit in this new Utopia?
He's right enough, it's not a level playing field. Asymetric warfare isn't it, no amount of aircraft carriers are useful against a guy driving a truck into a crowd- and no amount of dudes with bomb vests stop a tank from rolling into your capital city. Unsportingly, the baddies now refuse to get into aircraft carrier duels with the US, and they fight tanks with hostages and armies by attacking where they're not.
And moral codes make things unequal too, fundamentally we're at a disadvantage here- and the real kicker is, we have to make sure we always are, even when it'd be tempting to level that playing field.
But of course it's a slippery slope, just one little torture to stop an imminent terrorist attack... Except here we're not talking slippery slope at all, we're talking outright moral black and white "be evil to fight evil, as a first resort". Usually you're worried that this stuff sneaks in at the greys.
The scary thing about this, apart from the obvious fact that the bloke is clearly absolutely unhinged, is that he seems like a man just getting started, and really warming to his theme. You can just see that he;s getting more drunk on power by the day, and feels like theres nobody who can, or should, have the right to prevent him doing whatever the hell he likes
i worry that in a terrifyingly short time-frame we're going to be viewing things like endorsing the use of torture as a quaint golden age of reason.
His attitude to international diplomacy reminds me of...
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Take a look at his demeanour and posturing as he publicly signs these executive orders, and be afraid. Be very very afraid. He clearly thinks he's some kind of Roman emperor
He's right enough, it's not a level playing field. Asymetric warfare isn't it, no amount of aircraft carriers are useful against a guy driving a truck into a crowd- and no amount of dudes with bomb vests stop a tank from rolling into your capital city. Unsportingly, the baddies now refuse to get into aircraft carrier duels with the US, and they fight tanks with hostages and armies by attacking where they're not.And moral codes make things unequal too, fundamentally we're at a disadvantage here- and the real kicker is, we have to make sure we always are, even when it'd be tempting to level that playing field.
+1
Apparently. Whereas a man who stated that it would have been preferable to have a trial does not.
True, although that man picked just about the only form of words possible to make his statement of that near-universally accepted fact look like advocating rabid insanity.
Unsportingly, the baddies now refuse to get into aircraft carrier duels with the US, and they fight tanks with hostages and armies by attacking where they're not.And moral codes make things unequal too, fundamentally we're at a disadvantage here- and the real kicker is, we have to make sure we always are, even when it'd be tempting to level that playing field.
Unsportingly the good guys now use drones to drop bombs on anyone anywhere who they think might be a threat with moral codes that don't seem that unequal... ([url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/11/obama-drone-wars-normalisation-extrajudicial-killing ]source[/url])
Without the scrutiny of the legislature and the courts, and outside the public eye, Obama is authorizing murder on a weekly basis, with a discussion of the guilt or innocence of candidates for the "kill list" being resolved in secret on "Terror Tuesday" teleconferences with administration officials and intelligence officials.
The thought of what Trump might do with this very uneven playing field is more terrifying than any terrorist threat.
He clearly thinks he's some kind of Roman emperor
He clearly thinks he's powerless and can say what he likes and then blame Congress/Senate when it doesn't end up as law.
Thus winning votes with Rednecks without doing any significant harm.
I hope you're right fella.
What a great move by TM to be the first one to visit.
🙄
He clearly thinks he's powerless and can say what he likes and then blame Congress/Senate when it doesn't end up as law.
Isn't he making a lot of these changes as Executive Orders?
I don't understand the American legal/political framework enough to know how they work but it seems like they carry some legal weight.
Anyone legally minded care to explain them?
Thus winning votes with Rednecks without doing any significant harm.
Apart from the day one harm, the recruitment propaganda for is etc
Isn't he making a lot of these changes as Executive Orders?I don't understand the American legal/political framework enough to know how they work but it seems like they carry some legal weight.
Anyone legally minded care to explain them?
Nor me but I was referring to torture and that has been illegal for a few years now in the states and that's not going to change because of anything Trump has said.
Apart from the day one harm, the recruitment propaganda for is etc
Hence 'significant'.