No idea why should they?why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike?
you nailed their central concern. Well done, you have a fine grasp of this issue.Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.
Why should any of my families or friends health be put at risk by a health secretary changing working conditions in the NHS to the detriment of patient safety . Thank Christ the Junior Drs have the courage to stand up and fight for what they know is right.
Hunt should take the Hippocratic Oath patients come before political ideology . If he wants a " 7 day a week service " that is different to the current 7 day a week service then he needs to increase staff by about 20 % not demotivate and alienate the current staff.
I've been staying out of this for the sake of my blood pressure but enough is enough.
Short term strikes reduce in-hospital mortality rates because:
A. Patients avoid coming to hospital so those that die do so either die somewhere else or die in hospital [i]after[/i] the strike.
B. Routine operations are cancelled. You can't get a fatal complication from an operation you didn't have
Moron.
They are fighting for their working conditions to remain the same as far as I can tell, the same as the majority of working people would do, it being work and not free time you know.
[url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18849101 ]Soc Sci Med. 2008 Dec;67(11):1784-8. doi: 10.1016/j.socscimed.2008.09.044. Epub 2008 Oct 10.
[b]Doctors' strikes and mortality: a review.[/b]
Cunningham SA1, Mitchell K, Narayan KM, Yusuf S.[/url]
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/when-doctors-go-on-strike_b_1513689.html
GrahamS - MemberWhere would they be on the Hippocratic Oath if they stood by and allowed changes to be introduced which they believe compromise patient safety?
That my duck riding friend is total and utter bollox.
Anyway it sounds like it's academic according to the news tonight, the government can force the contracts through and so they should. Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.
I happen to agree
They all want to get to consultant level status and wages but don't want to do the work. If you aren't prepared to do the work don't become a doctor simple, expect consultant status handed to you on a plate, then piss off to private sector to milk the NHS a bit more .
Thanks Graham S.
Surgical death rates are far higher from emergency surgery than elective. And emergency surgery carries on.
It's been said before and I'll say it again - all juniors who are full time work 48 hours a week. The only way to have more staff on sat/sun is to reduce numbers Monday to Friday. And we already rely on locums as not enough staff.
Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.
They all want to get to consultant level but don't want to do the work.
Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these 🙄
Ah yes, you were the guy [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/snowboarding-problems-feet ]trollingly suggesting some insane snowboard stance[/url]. I remember.
Well if you think you can troll me again...
Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.
...then you'd be right.
Further up the thread you'd see me commenting on my junior doctor wife doing a 56 hour week (including three 13 hour shifts), plus a full day at a training course, plus evening work on presentations and eportfolio - and that's a PART TIME post.
If you really think that's "lazy" then I'd like to hear about your week and how many people you kept alive.
They all want to get to consultant level but don't want to do the work.
Mrs qualified as a doctor in 2000. She has been working towards being a consultant since then.
You have [i]no idea[/i] how much work she has put in: running clinics, learning procedures, audits, research, writing papers, conferences - as well as the actual looking after patients bits.
Even filling in her consultant application form took her a week - I've never seen anything like it!
In just one section of it they wanted a list of every hospital she'd worked at, all 17 of them, each one with 500 words describing her duties and experiences, plus her salary at the time and the names, emails, adresses and phone numbers of the people she had worked with. And that's before we got to the 2000 word essays for the other sections. And that's just to get her shortlisted for an interview!
Why should any of my families or friends health be put at risk by a health secretary changing working conditions in the NHS to the detriment of patient safety
@crankboy total opposite is true, the new contract is about making sure there is proper cover at weekends (plus other stuff)
Becoming a doctor remains massively oversubscribed with far more supremely well qualified candidates chasing places. Thats a signal it must be a pretty good career overall despite what we all accept is a tough introduction.
One additional issue is we only have one health service provider, the NHS. If we had a variety of providers a strike by one set of doctors wouldn't jepordise fhe whole country and doctors could choose which provider they worked for.
Becoming a Dr is massively oversubscribed but staying one in the UK isn't. Why do you think there are so many vacancies? If you are keen on options to the NHS then have a look at proportion of GDP spent on health.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS
Jamba the Hunt said:
If we had a variety of providers a strike by one set of doctors wouldn't jepordise fhe whole country and doctors could choose which provider they worked for.
Spoken like a true Tory jamba:
Break up the NHS and privatise it to different providers so the unions have less power and patients get to choose who they pay for treatment.
If that's the ultimate goal (and I agree it is) then they should have the balls to make that a manifesto promise and see what the people think.
Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea [s]what junior doctors actually do[/s], then you get posts like these
FTFY
Mr Hunt is an idiot. When the last strike was supposed to happen, Mr Hunt had all the previous day to day he would go to ACAS, yet he left it until 5pm to make that decision, which was too late for any lists to be reinstated etc, so although there was no strike, he basically caused the same amount of disruption.
They all want to get to consultant level status and wages but don't want to do the work. If you aren't prepared to do the work don't become a doctor simple, expect consultant status handed to you on a plate, then piss off to private sector to milk the NHS a bit more .
You really have absolutely no idea on so many levels. If you want me to begin explaining I will, but I think it would be lost on you.
GrahamS - I look forward to the day when MrsFD is filling out Consultant applications, at least then I might actually get to see her at home, rather than her constantly being st the Golf Course as she is now 🙂
Why are stupid people allowed on the Internet?
I am saddened by the complete failure of some to grasp the actual nub of the argument and to simply spout the line that cHunt has been feeding the media. Yes, there are two sides to every story but his is a manipulative, devious, bare faced lie of a story when it comes to trying to make the other side, the medical profession, look bad.
Those of you who think the strike is about money, that doctors have it lucky and are being unreasonable, maybe do a little research into their training requirements, the financial and time commitment. Their working conditions once qualified, the progression rates and requirements to higher level posts. How about considering the simple fact that these are the people we trust to look after us and our relatives & friends when they are ill, injured, dying. Do you want to risk them being pushed so hard that they make a mistake? They don't, that's one of the reasons they are striking.
In absolute terms doctors do,indeed earn good money but by Christ they earn it. Do they really deserve to be given an effective pay cut?
The whole '7 day NHS' thing really angers me too. Who can refute the fact that there is always 7 day essential care cover available? Who has ever tried to go to the ED on a Sunday and found it closed? I agree that we ought to be able to provide non acute services over the whole week and that would ease waiting times and improve care provision, but trying to force the existing workforce to work longer hours won't fill the space.
Please, do,a bit of reading beyond the red tops, or the BBC news channel. Actually consider what is happening. If you can't do that, step away from the keyboard and keep your ill informed, moronic comments to,yourself.
Mattbe - to some extent I actually disagree with you. In any job sector any where in the world, if you pay 20% less than you can get working for other companies, then you will only attract poor candidates and therefore your business will suffer, I would hope even the people who disagree with the docs here would agree with this!
So if Mr Hunt does get away with reducing doctors pay, then expect the future quality of doctors to be lower, does anyone really want that ??
FD, I'm confused as to what you mean there, you say you disagree but your following statement doesn't appear to relate to what I said, in fact you appear to be in agreement?
Infographic for the hard-of-reading:
[img] 
?format=750w[/img]
[img] 
?format=750w[/img]
([url= http://www.patientsource.co.uk/news/2015-11-29/why-patientsource-is-supporting-the-junior-doctors ]Much bigger originals available here[/url])
With the massive commodities drop I'm not sure doctors will be so required in the Middle East, Canada or Australia for a while.
Weird that people so wedded to the idea of the NHS are happy to leg it to the Middle East or the USA.
mattbee - Member
How about considering the simple fact that these are the people we trust to look after us and our relatives & friends when they are ill, injured, dying. Do you want to risk them being pushed so hard that they make a mistake? They don't, that's one of the reasons they are striking.
In absolute terms doctors do,indeed earn good money but by Christ they earn it. Do they really deserve to be given an effective pay cut?
Trust? Yes, to certain extend but what choice do you have if you are poor or financially not viable?
Ok this is in the far east and Not in the UK ...
Two weeks ago my uncle in the far east was told he has stage 4 liver cancer ...
I mean he went for medical check up 2 years ago (over there) but was not told the result until the recent check up again when he felt slightly uncomfortable. The result given to him by the doctor was stage 4 liver cancer (might be similar to Bowie) ... WTF! Whaatttt? Now my uncle is waiting to die coz it might be too late to deal with the cancer.
Well, we feel angry and a sad because my uncle will die unless something is done but since it will cost a lot for medication in the far east my uncle has decided that if it's time to go ... he will go. In the meantime we shall have to revert to traditional herbal medication to see if we can prolong his life a little bit longer.
In the far east there are so many junior doctors my father was told there were several junior doctors competing for patients according to the slightly senior doctor. Then the senior doctor told my father that they (senior doctors) were going elsewhere for greener pasture ... my bet is that they will come here.
If junior doctors here want to work abroad then go ahead coz there will be competition. There seem to be over supplied of under qualified/experienced doctors in the far east but then on paper they are as good as the junior doctors here ...
Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these
Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors' concerns across - I guess because it's hard to express in 140 characters - I don't find it surprising that people are so astonishingly ignorant about what doctors are actually arguing for. The BBC's output has been particularly galling.
in fact you appear to be in agreement?
Sorry was trying to do 20 things at once this morning and misread the context of your post!
...both our posts are still very valid.
As an aside
I do feel the leaders of the BMA are doing shockingly badly at countering Hunt. Mr Hunt was brought in to the Government as a spin doctor, and I have to say it is the one thing that he is very good at.
BMA really do need to up their game.
Yeah I think the BMA and the junior doctors are relying on honesty and reasoned arguments.
Sadly that isn't the way politics or public opinion works these days.
Hunt knows all the tricks and is happy to use them.
Then the senior doctor told my father that they (senior doctors) were going elsewhere for greener pasture ... my bet is that they will come here.
They already do. Despite jamba's protestations about oversubscribed medical posts the NHS is heavily propped up by foreign doctors and nurses.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/28/-sp-nhs-hires-3000-foreign-doctors-staff-shortage
[quote=GrahamS spake unto the masses, saying]Yeah I think the BMA and the junior doctors are relying on honesty and reasoned arguments.
Sadly that isn't the way politics or public opinion works these days.
Hunt knows all the tricks and is happy to use them.
I think they are starting to cotton on - for example in countering the "15 out of 16" bullsh1t. Also saw a v good interviewee on C4 News last night (forget his name), who also made the point that *unt's "statistics" make no sense.
I have to say that everything the government says seems to make sense. The problem is it either has not been reported or is not being put across properly what the BMA is actually saying. Yes lots of headlines but not detail. At the end of the day the government should publish what it is trying to achieve and then let the BMA publish all of the various options that could be put in place to achieve this. The BMA says the NHS already works 7 days a week. Yes if you are very very ill but if anyone has had a loved one in hospital over the weekend we all know the whole place seems to shut down. Simply walk up and down the corridors and they are deserted unlike the normal weekday hustle and bustle.
Doctors need to realise that they are just public sector workers like everyone. They are not special or the chosen ones just an employee like everyone else. They are no different from nurses, paramedics or anyone else in the NHS. Yes they might be more qualified but so it the IT support technical sitting beside the admin staff in 1000's of offices. Doctors have chosen their profession, they weren't forced into it and they need to play by the rules that the managers and government out in place. Just like any other business.
Now I agree that doctors should be paid well and anti social hours should be evenly distributed across them. But at the end of the day the NHS needs to work 7 days a week. And for all the Facebook posts of doctors saying "Look I have just finished a 100hr shift" how is this good. Bloody irresponsible and dangerous if you ask me. Would it be good to see a lorry driver brag that he had just worked a 100hr shift. I think not. Lorry drivers and many many other professions are not allowed to work stupidly long hours so why do doctors not only do it but actively campaign that they want to be able to do it!!
Doctors need to be told once and for all to get in line and that they do not own the NHS. (This is now it works in the private sector) Government at the same time needs to insist on efficiencies in the NHS, modern practices and pay decent salaries. Companies have worked out how to do this for years and years and years so it is not impossible to sort this out. If the NHS falls apart then it is our job as the electorate to boot the politicians out and vote in people that will fix the NHS.
Rant over...
. If the NHS falls apart then it is our job as the electorate to boot the politicians out and vote in people that will fix the NHS.
I suppose out of all that crock there had to be at least a tiny bit that makes sense.
And for all the Facebook posts of doctors saying "Look I have just finished a 100hr shift" how is this good.
well quite
Lorry drivers and many many other professions are not allowed to work stupidly long hours so why do doctors not only do it but actively campaign that they want to be able to do it!!
Good god. Is that what you think they're trying to do?! I don't even know where the BMA start if people are that ignorant.
woody74 - Member
...Lorry drivers and many many other professions are not allowed to work stupidly long hours so why do doctors not only do it but actively campaign that they want to be able to do it!!
eh?
longer hours is not what they're campaigning for.
(mostly, they want to be protected from overly long hours, Hunt wants to remove this protection)
Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors' concerns across
Rubbish, there has been plenty outlining both sides positions on the likes of BBC, Guardian and Telegraph websites.
Ok so do we all agree that doctors should not work or be allowed to work unless their is an emergency, more than a 40hr week?
If you don't agree then why not?
Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors' concerns across
The BMA Mark Porter bloke was on Radio 4 this morning. If he can't get the doctor's concerns across given that platform then he should stand down and let someone else do the job.
Ok so do we all agree that doctors should not work or be allowed to work unless their is an emergency, more than a 40hr week?
Huh? You're arguing for far, far more protection than even the BMA are. You're on their side, not the government's.
I think Hunt's proposal may impose a slightly lower overall weekly max, but there'd be essentially no limit to what proportion of that weekly total [i]could[/i] be during what used to be unsocial hours due to the removal of what, effectively, is a financial disincentive fror trusts to make individual doctors work very long daily hours without appropriate breaks/rest(mostly, they want to be protected from overly long hours, Hunt wants to remove this protection)
Weird that people so wedded to the idea of the NHS are happy to leg it to the Middle East or the USA.
Dont you argue its human nature to be greedy?
Why are you not comending them for this inevitable action?
I do so love the way Tories forget their principles when the argument suits
FWIW clearly its possible to both love the NHS and refuse to work under certain conditions.
I have to say that everything the government says seems to make sense
I have no idea what you wrote after that as I struggle to believe anyone thinks this about any govt let alone this one on this issue. I therefore had no interest in what you subsequently thought
I was tempted to just put [ shout] NURSE[/Shout]
scaredypants: yep, as I understand it, it is effectively a move away from a system of [i]"if your Trust make you work long hours then you'll be paid extra for them - ramping up to the point where it'd be cheaper for them to create a second post"[/i]
And towards a system of [i]"if you work long hours and they get logged then an external auditor might spot it or you can decide to ruin your career by suing your hospital trust"[/i]
[quote=woody74 spake unto the masses, saying]Ok so do we all agree that doctors should not work or be allowed to work unless their is an emergency, more than a 40hr week?
If you don't agree then why not?
Err ... think it's the government who you need to be putting that question to - you know, the ones who you think have got everything right.
scaredypants - MemberI think Hunt's proposal may impose a slightly lower overall weekly max, but there'd be essentially no limit to what proportion of that weekly total could be during what used to be unsocial hours due to the removal of what, effectively, is a financial disincentive fror trusts to make individual doctors work very long daily hours without appropriate breaks/rest
right now, if a hospital assigns a Doctor too many hours, in excess of their contract, the hospital can be fined.
Hunt wants to remove that penalty, there will be NO effective barriers to the number of hours imposed on doctors. The limits offered by Hunt are in effect 'Guidelines'.
Guidelines that will probably have to be ignored.
so, how would we all feel about a new contract being forced on US, that removed all effective limits on our working week, and came with a pay-cut?
i'm not *completely* convinced that the tories want to break the NHS, forcing us all to pay up-front for health care, but if it quacks like a duck...
I have no idea what you wrote after that as I struggle to believe anyone thinks this about any govt let alone this one on this issue. I therefore had no interest in what you subsequently thought
Ok what has the government said (not what you think they said) that does not make sense? I mean their aims make sense. I am not naive enough to think there aren't some other motives the Torys have hidden away.
I am not on the side of the government or the doctors, have no ideological leaning when it comes to the NHS.
but there'd be essentially no limit to what proportion of that weekly total could be during what used to be unsocial hours
And the problem with that is what exactly? So if I read that correctly then the doctors are campaigning to keep longer working weeks, but at the positive of minimum weekend or night shift work?
that's all kinds of wrong.
Doctors definitely aren't complaining about working weekends.
(although one of their minor* complaints is that weekend-work will face a pay-cut)
(*as in, they have issues they're more cross about, i'm not trying to suggest a weekend pay-cut is not a kick in the balls)
[b] I therefore had no interest in what you subsequently thought[/b]
You do seem to struggle with the data and interpretting it 😉
Ok, lets say the doctors agree the new contract - if we want 24/7 health care what do people want to drop from the week time to run at weekends ?
As there are no more staff to go round what or any more money to recruit ones we are going to have to cut services from the week to put them on at weekend ....
Something doesnt make sense to me !
And why didnt I see headlines of cancelled operation for the royal wedding ? there were more people in the nhs yesterday than there for for Will and Kate's little day !
Ok what has the government said (not what you think they said) that does not make sense?
"7 day NHS"
What do you think that means?
How can you achieve it with the same numbers of staff?
No, as mentioned, although Hunt's proposal implies (I think) marginally shorter weekly hours, there will be fewer mandatory breaks and no comeback on trusts that breach the new "limit" anyway. CHanges to unsocial hours means that trusts can cheaply schedule rotas that are more disruptive and likely lead to more fatiugue amongst these doctors.And the problem with that is what exactly? So if I read that correctly then the doctors are campaigning to keep longer working weeks, but at the positive of minimum weekend or night shift work?
(Yes, I know that plenty of folk work disorienting shift patterns but most of them aren't going to be looking after me when I've been under a bus)
My other concern over this: If the exisiting trainees are spread over whole fully operational 7 day weeks, then there are fewer of them around at a given point. Same for consultants. How would you ever get the 2 groups together for training ?
One question I have, if Hunt forces the contract change through do the Doctors have to sign it? And if they don't what happens.
I ask, as when my contract changes and I need to sign a new one, if I don't sign it I'm effectively being made redundant. Surely even Hunt would risk laying off all of the Junior doctors; I understand he wants rid of the NHS, so we can all move to privatized healthcare as its worked so well with other essential services that the Tories have moved into the public sector, but that doesn't seem like a very canny move by him to do it so blatantly and out in the open.
more disruptive and likely lead to more fatigue amongst these doctors.
I'm not sure that's true, if you add working Saturday but in doing so remove Monday, provided the hours stay the same then overall there is no difference.
How would you ever get the 2 groups together for training ?
Like any business you manage the company needs in terms of staffing, and then make everyone booked on the course come in the same day. It requires a bit of planning and good management but isn't rocket science.
when my contract changes and I need to sign a new one, if I don't sign it I'm effectively being made redundant.
Presumably this is still the case with the doctors. Maybe 5% wouldn't sign it, but I'm sure most have lifestyles etc. that require earning money, and it isn't like there is another employer they could rush too. But that really would be a nuclear option by both parties and I don't think the BMA and government are that stupid.
Ok what has the government said (not what you think they said) that does not make sense?
So many to choose from, let's take [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/466589/Health_Secretary_to_JDC_Chair.pdf ]Jeremy Hunt's letter to the Chair of the Junior Doctor's Committee[/url] for a concise example or two:
He starts with [i]"this is not a cost cutting exercise. I can give you a categorical assurance that I am not seeking to save any money from the junior doctors' pay bill...
... these changes would be cost neutral, rather than cost saving."[/i]
And insists that the BMA calculations are wrong, hardly anyone will get a paycut, despite plenty of worked examples to the contrary.
And then he repeatedly tells the media that this is an 11% pay rise! And then repeats it so much that people think this dispute is about greedy doctors wanting more money!
Of course this is all driven by the need for a seven day NHS isn't it? He's made that clear.
Odd then that in the same letter he says: [i]"Junior doctors already work seven days and are the backbone of medical care in hospitals at weekends and at night."[/i]
And of course he says [i]"we must eradicate the 'weekend effect' of excess deaths in NHS hospitals"[/i], despite the fact that [url= http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4596 ]the paper[/url] he is basing the "weekend effect" figures on says quite clearly that it would be [i]"rash and misleading"[/i] to think these deaths were preventable as it doesn't account for the fact that [url= http://www.bmj.com/company/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/NHS-weekend-deaths.pdf ]fewer patients are admitted at weekends and they are likely to be sicker and thus at a higher risk of death[/url].
http://www.bmj.com/company/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/NHS-weekend-deaths.pdf
And insists that the BMA calculations are wrong, hardly anyone will get a paycut, despite plenty of worked examples to the contrary.
When Hunt said that the BMA's calculations were wrong he was completely correct.
The calculator on the website that many JDs were using to calculate their "loss" wasn't underpinned by the data from the actual discussions or offer, just the BMA's original guesstimate of what would be offered and the rule tables hadn't been checked properly with the result it overestimated the losses and underestimated the increase in basic pay and didn't take into account the increase in pensionable pay on overall remuneration.
When this was pointed out the calculations were very discretely removed in the third week of October and replaced 2 weeks later with one that produced very different (higher) pay forecasts which is precisely why quite a few medics have gone from being adamant they would lose out to now saying the calculator tells them their income won't change.
With this level of opacity and when some of the BMA's negotiators have compared the Secretary of State to Nazis and also said they are intent on using the disagreement to fight a proxy dispute with the government about its Austerity agenda it's not difficult to see why the discussions so far have been less than constructive.
Both sides need their heads banging together but any negotiation in which one side compares a pay dispute to actions in the Holocaust is completely unacceptable - particularly when this is done in the name of professional that commands almost universal public respect.
The basic flaw in Hunt/the government's logic is that they want the NHS to be truly 7 days a week, but have repeatedly said there is no extra money to pay for this.
Whatever way you cut it they want 2 extra days a week out of the NHS whilst paying the same salaries, that is obviously a pay cut
Whatever way you cut it they want 2 extra days a week out of the NHS whilst paying the same salaries, that is obviously a pay cut
Not necessarily, as it is all about using resources as effectively and efficiently as possible.
Not necessarily, as it is all about using resources as effectively and efficiently as possible.
Is that a hand-waving way of saying that you'd reduce capacity during the rest of the week?
The biggest resource the NHS has got is its staff. "Using them as efficiently as possible" generally means doing more work for the same pay in my experience.
If we are talking about resources like Mri scanners then fair point. But we're not.
Is that a hand-waving way of saying that you'd reduce capacity during the rest of the week?
Probably yes.
It's not a course - they learn while they work, under senior supervision. Cons teach SpR's, they teach SHO's etcLike any business you manage the company needs in terms of staffing, and then make everyone booked on the course come in the same day. It requires a bit of planning and good management but isn't rocket science.
Oh wait, I see - [b]Ah[/b], you should have said. He's increasing numbers isn't he ? What silly people we were to distrust him
How can you achieve it with the same numbers of staff?
Instead of having hospitals understaffed a weekends you spread that out over the weekdays. As per @dragon above
The Troies have committed an extra £8bn pa to the NHS which is what the NHS was asking for. Labour committed £2bn pa.
I want a much much better NHS than we have but people won't vote for the tax rises for [b]everyone[/b] that will be required. As my many NHS friends agree its very good at critical care, otherwise there are many things its really quite poor at given how rich a country we are. As an aside a provitised BT is about a million times better than the state owned one, when did you last have to wait 3 months for a new phone line ?
understand he wants rid of the NHS, so we can all move to privatized healthcare
@rich this is just scaremongering nonsense, see the budget increases I noted above. It is however true the NHS is quite unlike healthcare in say Germany, France or Switzerland. Open your eyes to the fact that might not be a good thing
@GrahamS if doctors are so badly treated and paid how come the queue of applicants to study and work in the NHS is so massive ?
this is just scaremongering nonsense
And yet here you are, the Tory faithful, telling us how much better off we would be if it was broken up and privatised?
@GrahamS if doctors are so badly treated and paid how come the queue of applicants to study and work in the NHS is so massive ?
If the queue of applicants is so massive why are so many wards understaffed and why do we rely so heavily on recruiting foreign doctors?
There are holes in rotas at virtually every hospital in the land@GrahamS if doctors are so badly treated and paid how come the queue of applicants to study and work in the NHS is so massive ?
The biggest resource the NHS has got is its staff. "Using them as efficiently as possible" generally means doing more work for the same pay in my experience.
Using NHS staff efficiently also means a whole bunch of other things as well:
[b]- Using experience correctly.[/b] There's still plenty of day to day work that can be done to the same standard by less expensive resources thus releasing the more experienced / expensive staff to focus on more complex treatment and getting it right first time. A good example of this in Primary care is the use of prescribing Pharmacists and Nurses to relieve workload from GPs - in many cases prescribing nurses make better decisions with Patients who are living with a long term condition.
[b]Getting the diagnosis and care right first time,[/b] not the second or third time. This avoids unnecessary use of expensive diagnostics or having to treat the patient several times before the condition is properly managed. This typically reduces emergency admissions and associated in patient admissions.
[b]Smoothing the flow [/b]- so instead of the peaks and troughs that occur for scheduled care, diagnostics suites, wards etc. making more continuous use of resources and thus avoiding the need for bank staff etc. This is well established on the continent but something UK Doctors say can't be done her because it's not possible.
[b]Tackling the waste of resources caused by the separation of care / social care[/b] - this generally results in a "we're not responsible" attitude on both sides, a massive waste of resources and the patient invariably stuck in the middle.
[b]Breaking antiquated and inefficient working practices[/b] by using Technology to streamline and automate. Anyone who's been on the receiving end of numerous letters all from the same hospital and same day confirming diagniostics all on different days will probably get this. The NHS hasn't even tried to make it's processes patient friendly and the result of this is missed appointments, endless telephone calls and for some patients - getting sick and requiring an otherwise avoidable emergency admission.
It is however true the NHS is quite unlike healthcare in say Germany
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/16/german-health-warning-doctors-paperchase ]German doctors spend a third of their week contesting bills with insurance companies amid a climate of permanent reform [/url]
Yeah sounds great.
see the budget increases I noted above. It is however true the NHS is quite unlike healthcare in say Germany, France or Switzerland. Open your eyes to the fact that might not be a good thing
Healthcare spending as % of GDP, 2013:
UK 9.1 (downward trend)
Germany 11.3 (upward trend)
France 11.7 (upward trend)
Switzerland 11.5 (upward trend)
[url= http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS ]By a BANK - must be good ![/url]
NHS costs approx £2,200 pa for every man woman and child. As only about 55% of the uk population is working age that's £4,400 in taxes required from every working person to meet the current budget
@scardey - exactly. We don't spend nearly enough. To meet those amounts we would need an increase in taxes by wjat 20% (2.5/9) ? People won't vote for it
@Graham, their secretaries should be doing that. The insurance / top up system is the one they have in France
Then perhaps Jeremy should impose it upon them ?People won't vote for it
The sad fact is, the NHS used to be 24/7 and it used to cost a lot less than it does now.
Doctors and Nurses used to command the respect their [i]profession[/i] demanded, that along with other professions that used to be revered is no longer the case and the more they act like striking miners, tube drivers or any other group that gives maximum public inconvenience then the less public opinion they command and the stronger the Governments position.
You all might know good hard working Doctors, sadly I only know the opposite and as for Consultants what was it Nye Bevan said he had to do to get the greedy bastards to even accept the health service, 'fill their mouths with gold' I believe the quote went. Which is what jnr Doctors are working toward and it's always been acknowledged that they work their butts off until they reach their nirvana of Consultancy where they become rich people doing as much or as little as they desire.
That is the common mans opinion and this striking none sense is not helping their case.
The sad fact is, the NHS used to be 24/7 and it used to cost a lot less than it does now.
The NHS is more 24/7 than it has ever been and it used to do a lot less than it does now.
That is the [s]common mans[/s] twazzock's opinion and this striking none sense is not helping their case.
FTFY. Seriously, put the red tops down and step away from Jeremy Hunt.
(Alternatively, maybe I shouldn't feed the troll).
It's not a course - they learn while they work, under senior supervision. Cons teach SpR's, they teach SHO's etc
Fine you adjust your shifts appropriately. Seriously all jobs have some form of on the job training and a lot are shift based and they manage this side of things fine.
NHS still is 24/7 or I think it is because if it's I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be an hour's time.
Stolen from another forum and I think it sums it up what will happen and the typical media response.
The government will impose these conditions on the junior doctors if they don't negotiate.
Now let me figure this one out.
If they negotiate the government will end up imposing these conditions on them.
If they don't negotiate the government will end up imposing these conditions on them.
Last night it's reported that 3,500 operations were cancelled due to junior doctors taking industrial action
[b]
Let's try a new headline.[/b]
[b]3500 OPERATIONS WERE CANCELLED DUE TO THIS TORY GOVERNMENT THREATENING YET AGAIN TO USE BULLY BOY TACTICS, ON A SECTION OF THE PUBLIC SECTOR.[/b]
@Graham, their secretaries should be doing that
Are their secretaries really qualified to argue with insurance company medics about appropriate treatments and drugs?
Healthcare spending as % of GDP, 2013
As I understand it that table covers overall private and public expenditure on health. You can combine it with [url= http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PUBL/countries ]this table[/url] that gives you the % of that total healthcare expenditure paid for public funds and you get:
UK: [b]9.1%[/b] of GDP of which [b]83.5%[/b] public
Germany: [b]11.3%[/b] of GDP of which [b]76.8%[/b] public
France: [b]11.7%[/b] of GDP of which [b]77.5%[/b] public
Switzerland: [b]11.5%[/b] of GDP of which [b]66%[/b] public
So ([i]I think.. scratching head[/i]..) that means you can say that healthcare expenditure as % of GDP from the public purse is:
UK: 7.5985
Germany: 8.6784
France: 9.0675
Switzerland: 7.5900
So it looks to me like even if we adopted Germany or France's system we'd still need to increase taxes to reach their levels of healthcare spending.
It's daft to suggest that the NHS works exactly the same on weekends as it does weekdays - emergency services, sure, but not everythingNHS still is 24/7 or I think it is because if it's I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be an hour's time.
I think it's disingenuous and counterproductive to bullshit the public on that sort of thing - as it is to talk about basic salaries when "all" docs get additional payments. NHS is 5plus2halves and they can barely afford / won't pay for any more than that. The man in the street (possibly excepting bluehelmet here 😉 ) can understand that AND would be able to compare those salaries with a) Jeremy's and b) comparably high-flying graduates elsewhere
The BMA should be open & honest, talk plainly and that way show Hunt up for exactly what he is
It's daft to suggest that the NHS works exactly the same on weekends as it does weekdays - emergency services, sure, but not everything
Yes but the Juniour Dr's are working the same as they use to which is kind of the point.
NHS is a blackhole, which is fundamentally unsustainable with an ageing population, an increasing number of whom are living to a ripe old age many years after they retire.
It's a pickle...but I'd rather drop dead at 65 and be done with it than go to endless hospital appointments whilst sucking yet more money which should be going to future generations.
An unpopular view, I understand.