It didn't have to come to this but Jeremy has royally p1ssed everyone off.
Apparently the government is refusing to go to ACAS - how can they honestly claim that they're negotiating in good faith?
Apparently the government is refusing to go to ACAS - how can they honestly claim that they're negotiating in good faith?
the governments position is based on ideology and an unplanned/costed election "promise". They'd come out badly at ACAS so they are going to bluff it out through the pages of the right wing press
they are the baby boomers who've eaten the cake already!
I dunno - first it's "Generation Y's" fault - then it's the "Baby Boomers".
Is there a generation that is not culpable?
I'm not sure what cake you think the consultants have eaten, but I know a few and in my experience they work incredibly hard for their money.
The mythical days of one operation then a round of golf are long long gone, if they ever really existed at all.
I'm not convinced any of your assertions are demonstrably true.
Well it looks like 99% of the doctors who are on the sharp end of this disagree with you.
I've seen people go through the figures on their own pay slips and calculate how much of a pay cut they face.
If the BMA website hadn't crashed today under load then I'd point you at the contract so you could read it yourself.
I might be old fashioned but when your vocation (not 'job') involves saving lives, strike action is inappropriate at any time.
What if they strike to save lives?
If the new contract puts patients at risk, which they believe it will, and this is the only way they can challenge it effectively then strike action is entirely appropriate.
Do you think any doctor took this decision lightly?
My wife has agonised over it for a fortnight.
Striking is the very last thing they want to do.
To quote my wife on FB this morning: "It's a sad day that it's come to this. No one wants this."
Maybe we will see doctors coming into work anyway if they learn that effective cover cannot be provided in their absence - do you think they will?
Some might. But the consultants, SAS doctors etc are right behind them and will provide appropriate emergency cover.
Seems pretty clear cut in the context of the Hippocratic oath...
Not if you consider that greater harm may be caused to your patients by not striking.
I might be being a bit simplistic, but I still think an awful lot of the knee jerk reaction is based on not appreciating what a 'junior' doctor actually is.
Yep. My 40 year old Junior Doctor wife will be pleased to be considered a Generation Y kid. 😆
Well, she is only a trainee.. 😀
If everything goes to plan she'll become a consultant in June next year.
Then we apparently get some sort of cake.
Then we apparently get some sort of cake.
Will she be allowed to eat it though?
Then we apparently get some sort of cake.
I don't mean to alarm you but I was walking past the Freeman the other day...
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Many a true word Sam.
30 yrs a Doc. never taken the hippocratic oath. It has absolutely no relevance to modern medical ethics. It is antiquated and full of rubbish - a bit Old Testament actually
These [url= http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/good_medical_practice.asp ]are our rules[/url]
And we are all on the side of the Juniors. Hunt has lied and lied and lied.
He's lied so much he's no longer making any sense.
He said in [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/08/jeremy-hunt-letter-bma-junior-doctors-contract-concessions ]his letter to Junior Doctors[/url] that [i]"this is not a cost cutting exercise... these changes would be cost neutral, rather than cost saving"[/i]
But he also says that only 1% of doctors will suffer a pay cut and the offer [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34859860 ][i]"will see pay go up for three-quarters of junior doctors"[/i][/url].
I'd like to see his working there!
Mind you, he also publicly said he wants a 24/7 NHS and then in his letter admitted [i]"Junior doctors already work seven days and are the backbone of medical care in hospitals at weekends and at night."[/i]
and while we are at it, i dont know what you think you know about dentists (or tube drivers) but the DOH has shafted ethical dentists in a big way on the NHS over the last 5-10 years. Its a different thread but id keep your ill informed, incorrect opinions to yourself
GrahamS - Member
To quote my wife on FB this morning: "It's a sad day that it's come to this. No one wants this."
Silly Mrs/Dr S, of course [i]somebody[/i] wants this. I bet he hasn't stopped playing with himself since the result was announced
From [url=
Medical Registrar on FB[/url]:
There's an interesting list of people who can say they convinced 98% of a population to vote for something...Kim Jong Un
Nursultan Nazarbayev
Robert Mugabe
Jeremy Hunt
😆
I might be old fashioned but when your vocation (not 'job') involves saving lives, strike action is inappropriate at any time.
This is what the government had been banking on, and hence why they have already railroaded through changes to doctors pay and conditions without consultation.
There have been ballots over the last few years and doctors have NEVER opted for an all out strike by big majority. This time patient safety concerns and taking the pee have gone too far, however JH I bet never thought doctors would have the balls to do it.
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😯 😆
I hope the teachers strike next lol
😆
lemonysam - MemberI don't mean to alarm you but I was walking past the Freeman the other day...
Did he whack you with a crowbar?
Did he whack you with a crowbar?
*polite applause*
I think they should get paid more. Lifesavers. Literally. What job is more important than that.
If someone is going to save my life I will gladly give them all the money I have in the world.
I just hope they spend my 14 quid wisely.
That's the thing though. They are not asking to be paid more, they just don't want to be paid [i]less[/i].
I think they should get paid more. Lifesavers. Literally. What job is more important than that.
I've always found this fetishism of doctors weird, sure they do important work but without nutritious food, clean water, power, drugs etc they are little more than butchers.
they are little more than butchers.
You get a lot of really silly stuff posted on the internet, yet some people can still surprise you with their awesome levels of ignorance
Dragon you should give this type of fetishism a go. You might like it. It could save your life one day.
I've always found this fetishism of doctors weird, sure they do important work but without nutritious food, clean water, power, drugs etc they are little more than butchers.
Wow. Just Wow. 🙄
they are little more than butchers
To be fair Mrs FD did come home very late one night explaining she had spent the last 5 hrs removing most of the skin and flesh off a mans legs, side and arm. She was very clearly upset and did liken it to a form of butchery.
However, if she hadn't spent years being educated to do her job and spot what was wrong with the man, and used her honed surgical skills to remove the bug without cutting through nerves, tendons, crucial blood vessels etc, then the man would have been dead in a matter of a few hours.
Dragon - Google necrotizing fasciitis to see why Mrs FD performed butchery
Wow. Just Wow. 🙄
Hey don't be so mean, it's not easy defending this present Tory government's attack on the NHS, dragon is doing the best s/he can. At least s/he's having a go.
FD - That would be a horrendous thing to have to do.
Oh... I just got it! The Conservatives are the party for the rich people right?
Of course! They can afford private healthcare!
Why should they care!?
Dragon you should give this type of fetishism a go. You might like it. It could save your life one day.
Well s/he has mastered butchering sense so an ill human should pose no problems
That really is a bizarre thing to have said.
And in sure she did it all solo without any help from equipment makers, drug manufacturers, nurses, cleaners, dieticians, pharmacists etc.
I bet you could do just as good a job, hey - in fact, if I had to pick between a qualified clinician who's spent years busting out stupid hours learning how to treat the myriad of slings and arrows that flesh is heir to, and some donut who states that a bit of hot water, a clean towel and a scalpel are sufficient, I'd struggle to pick between them.
dragon's point doesn't seem to be quite what you think it is. . He's saying that doctors rely on drugs, other staff, and yes clean water, electricity and something to eat to do their job. He's completely right about that, but it's such a completely inane and pointless observation that it's hard to respond to it with anything but mong faces.
The correct response is "Of course they do. So what?"
And in sure she did it all solo without any help from equipment makers, drug manufacturers, nurses, cleaners, dieticians, pharmacists etc.
OK - tell us who would be in theatre with the person doing the surgery. Pretty sure that there wouldn't be any equipment makers, drug manfacturers,cleaners, dieticians or pharmacists in there unless they were observing.
And in sure she did it all solo without any help from equipment makers, drug manufacturers, nurses, cleaners, dieticians, pharmacists etc.
Is that an argument you often use dragon ..... I mean do you for example point out to tradesmen how little their skilled work is worth because they are so dependent on tool manufacturers?
And thank goodness to hard and software manufacturers who through their tireless work and dedication have allowed you to express your opinions on here eh?
The correct response is "Of course they do. So what?"
Actually, the correct answer is "Yes, that's why this whole 7 day NHS thing is so ill judged".
That aside, even the trolls don't really seem like they have their heart in this fight any more.
Dragon - I really don't get what you are trying to prove.
Of course it's team work, but Mrs FD was the highest skilled person in the room, the only one with the skills and ability to diagnose the problem, and then use skill and knowledge to do something about it with the assistance of a team.
What's your point?
I think Dragon, you are a actually unwittingly supporting our arguments! It's very true we need all these people - that's the whole stupid thing about this 7 day hunt rubbish. We don't work alone just having more doctors on the weekend will make no difference it's all the other staff that are needed too, but that costs money. Hunt knows this, what this is really about is bringing down Doctors pay, and then it will be nurses, physios etc.
this + 1
My point was to the post that they should be getting more money, as doctors have the most important job in the world. When people say this it is unhelpful as clearly they are nothing without the multidiscipline teams around them.
TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can't a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?
clearly they are nothing without the multidiscipline teams around them.
Indeed all those years of training and expertise gained is basically nothing.
What you said was stupid and to continue to justify it is just to continue being stupid
Why can't a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?
Cleaner is to busy to do the scan.
TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can't a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?
Here are some genuine reasons people have been to their GP -
“Can you settle a marital dispute? My wife thinks paracetamol is better, I think ibuprofen is. Who’s right?”
“I have sneezed twice in the last hour”
“I have a scratch on my arm” (tiny 2 millimetre scratch. No infection).
“My child has turned blue” -the child had blue dye on him from a duvet cover which had not yet been washed.
Two emergency appointments for a cold sore. The first to tell the patient the diagnosis, the second (later that morning) because the grandmother (a nurse) disagreed with the original diagnosis.
Out of hours prescription request for skin emollient (like a moisturiser).
Patient called 999 and attended A&E because they had broken a FALSE fingernail.
Man requesting a contraceptive pill
“My child smells like yeast….”
“My poo smells this morning and it doesn’t normally” with said excrement wrapped in tinfoil in a carrier bag.
Etc etc
My point was to the post that they should be getting more money, as doctors have the most important job in the world
Now is a good point to repeat that they are NOT striking for more money.
They are striking to stay on the same money they signed up for and, more importantly, to prevent the removal of the safeguards that currently protect them from working stupid hours.
Why can't a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?
For the same reason that you can't get your electrician to also do the bricklaying, or get your lawyer to fix your car?
TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can't a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?
Because he/she is a GP, not a pediatrician/gynocologist/midwife or whoever it is that does the scans (I don't have kids). Otherwise, what's the point in specialists.
And have you any idea how much imaging equipment costs? And then you'd need radiologist to operate it, and examine the images.
Last time I went to one of those provincial health care centers in spain they X-rayed me, gave me a big shot of morphine, put my broken arm in a slab, then had to call an ambulance to take me to the actual hospital as they couldn't do any more. Which actually made it far worse (by the time I got there the bones had dislocated as well). It was a waste of time (and money) and I'd have been better off dragging myself down to A&E, avoiding the complications and subsequent operation, probably avoiding breaking it twice again (the plate contributed to them).
There probably are some things GP's could do, but then we'd need more GP's, and a) that cost money, b) there's already a shortage of junior Dr's training to be GP's.
