[Closed] Do you flash other drivers when you see a speed camera van?

Ok - describe the circumstances then

You mean apart from my video? 😉

It's a struggle (and I'm not a very experienced driver so the wrong one to ask) but I still wouldn't want to rule it out.

I've certainly been in situations where a hefty right foot has [i]felt[/i] useful - either through my own bad judgement or somebody elses.

v8 - with a 70 mph limiter no one is passing you. next.

Plenty of other options there anyway

v8 - with a 70 mph limiter no one is passing you. next.

Okay same scenario, but two lane road, so no third lane to escape to.

Braking puts him in greater danger.
GTFO of there is the safest option. No?

Why does braking put him in greater danger?

v8 - with a 70 mph limiter no one is passing you. next.

Haha, Brilliant, just like all those HGVs limited to 56mph that don't pass each other? oh wait, they do.

Also, notwithstanding the above, it wouldn't mean lane three would be empty, just because everyone is travelling at the same speed.

And we haven't all got 70mph limiters anyway, so just admit that mine's a plausible example... 😆

Why does braking put him in greater danger?

Because there is 40 foot of trailer behind him that is moving into his lane?

In what circumstances would accelerating to above the speed limit be safer?

I was going to use v8's truck example too. Basically, in any situation where the 'escape' route is in front of you it may be better to accelerate.

I've been almost run off the road by an oncoming vehicle before now, where accelerating has taken me to a gap and stopping would have almost certainly resulted in a collision.

Going through a junction, someone runs a red light from a side road. You're almost through the junction. Stopping is about the worst thing you can do in that situation.

You can probably now dissect all these and come up with "yes, but" arguments for all of them. But, that'd be missing the point. As a driver, you have a number of options available to you in emergency situations. An artificial speed limiter would reduce these options. Whether or not we can come up with robust examples that can or can't be picked apart is by the by.

No, but it is a reasonable compromise

Aren't you reading the thread? There is no compromise to be had, according to some. You were speeding = you deserve the penalty.

Aren't you [s]reading the thread[/s] on STW? There is no compromise to be had

FTFY 😀

You were speeding = you deserve the penalty.

I think if I did get a penalty in that sort of situation I'd either A) appeal it on the grounds I was escaping danger or B) just be happy that the only thing hurt was my license and/or wallet.

v8 - with a 70 mph limiter no one is passing you. next.

Yes, but you're passing slower-moving traffic. The only way that logic holds is if we make all the lorries do 70mph too.

Better yet, we'll make all the motorways 56mph. No overtaking, everyone's going the same speed, limited. We can do away with the other two lanes of the carriageway too, after all, no-one's overtaking any more so what do we need those for? We'll never have any accidents then, genius.

Whilst we're at it, we'll reduce all the built-up areas to 5mph, go back to the days of having a little man with a flag walking in front of the cars.

FTFY

Good point, well made.

Not buying that scenario at all. You can change your speed far faster with the brake than accelerator so by braking you would be out of the way of the trailer more quickly, You also have multiple other options and in the case of the motorway / third lane one you should know what is in the outside lane anyway.

If you've ever been stuck behind a lorry travelling at 56.6mph, that is overtaking a lorry (or worse, several lorries) travelling at 56.1mph, then you KNOW that speed limiter are not the answer. 🙄

I didn't say it was - I just think the "acceerate out of danger" idea is bunkum.

Mind you - in that sceneario you can of course just sit and chill for a bit.

You do realise that often on congested roads when you drop the speed limit the average speed goes up? Urban 20 mph limits often raise average speeds -especially as you no longer need nearly so many traffic lights.

This was seen on the m 25 for example

You're just being argumentative (as usual) TJ. Seriously.

So you are alongside the drivers cab of this thing:
[img] [/img]

Or maybe one of these:
[img] [/img]

And your plan is to slam on the brakes, hope you don't skid, hope no one smashes into the back of you, and let that whole vehicle pass you as it is swinging dangerously into your lane?

Good luck!

I'd be hitting the gas.

You can change your speed far faster with the brake than accelerator

Safely? What about the guy behind me? Is he going to stop? What about the traffic behind him? Dropping anchor at 70mph in the middle of the motorway might well be the best course of action in isolation, but in the real world it's the sort of thing that makes headlines containing phrases like "multiple fatalities."

What if I'm on a motorbike?

by braking you would be out of the way of the trailer more quickly,

You don't drive much, do you?

You also have multiple other options

You're on a dual carriageway. Name one. You can go faster, you can go slower. What have you got left, mounting the central reservation, leaning on the horn and close your eyes? A leaflet campaign? An announcement on Twitter? "zomg wtf truck nearly killed me lols"

I'm not saying it's the ideal course of action in every situation. But it does happen and, fortunately, whether or not you 'buy' it is immaterial.

TJ, I take it you are not a particularly seasoned driver? It shows. You asked for a plausible situation, I gave you one. Others exist.

Yes you can change speed far more quickly with brakes than acceleration, but thats no good if there's a twit in an Audi, or the other halk of said lorry behind you. If the Audi or the lorry collide with you, then it's their fault, but thats cold comfort IMO.

Yes you should know hats in lane three, but it would be pretty irresponsible to just assume you were right, without checking, wouldn't it? Anyway, what if I know whats in lane three, and its a stack of cars? or if there isn't a lane three?

EDIT; nice try at changing the subject when it's becoming increasingly obvious that you are wrong, TJ... Go on, admit it! it can't be [i]that[/i] hard!

#TJsquashedbyatruck is trending as we speak... 😆

No offence TJ xxx

Better yet, we'll make all the motorways 56mph. No overtaking, everyone's going the same speed, limited. We can do away with the other two lanes of the carriageway too, after all, no-one's overtaking any more so what do we need those for? We'll never have any accidents then, genius.

Not a bad idea, and given that everyone is travelling at the same speed over a long distance, we may as well link the cars together and provide a single motive force. We could then remove the engines from individual cars and make them just cabins in which we sit. In fact if we had a system of rails which guided the direction of these coupled cars, then we would even need to concentrate on the road, we could just sit back and relax as these cars ran on rails at a controlled speed all over the place.

Right! I'm a genius! I'm off to the Dragon's Den!

[s]Freudian Penetration[/s]

[s]Double Slip[/s]

I mean Double Post

Average speed cameras are ace; in that traffic doesn't back up at the approach to roadworks anymore (unless there is such a volume of traffic on the road as to make it unavoidable of course). I remember back in the days of Gatso type speed cameras in roadworks, everybody would merrily drive at 70, 80...etc until the Gatso then slam on the anchors down to 40ish causing everybody behind to do the same, eventually leading to a concertina effect, and a jam of crawling traffic to the roadworks. Now, it seems at most sites surveilled by average speed cameras, the traffic flows through much better.

Should limits be the same for a modern ABS-equipped car as for a Ford Anglia with drum brakes?

The annual death toll when a Ford Anglia was new, was approximately three times the annual death toll now. Why would anyone propose a course of action that takes us backwards?

The problem with average cameras there is that you have a lane of vehicles doing 48mph, another doing 50, another doing 52, and a penis in an 'executive' vehicle who doesn't understand what "average speed cameras" means.

I went down a stretch the other day, on the M62. First lane full of trucks bumper to bumper. Got in the second lane, set cruise to 50mph (actual, not indicated). Picked up a truck behind me who spent the bulk of the roadworks about six inches from my back bumper, flashing his lights to try and bully me into going faster. Dunno quite what he expected.

v8ninety - Member

TJ, I take it you are not a particularly seasoned driver? It shows.

I got my driving lisence in 1977. Mainly ridden bikes, don't drive cars a lot.

Your scenario is simply not plausible to me at all. By accelerating you make a tiny difference to the amount of time you are alongside the truck - you remove yourself from danger far quicker by braking and you decrease the consequences of any crash.

Yes there is a tiny range of speeds and distances where that could make a tiny difference but its so improbable

I think you are showing your lack of anticipation and awareness myself.

Brilliant Charlie that'll stop all the accidents... 😯
[img] [/img]

The problem with average cameras there is that you have a lane of vehicles doing 48mph, another doing 50, another doing 52, and a penis in an 'executive' vehicle who doesn't understand what "average speed cameras" means.

Well, there's always going to be an eejit somewhere...but in general, traffic flows better when average jobbies are used. Take the M25 variable speed limit section; up to a point (again, sheer weight), traffic only started to flow better once the variable speed limits were made mandatory with the possibility that there was a camera on the gantries (much to the chagrin of the massive cock, Clarkson).

The problem with average cameras there is that you have a lane of vehicles doing 48mph, another doing 50, another doing 52, and a penis in an 'executive' vehicle who doesn't understand what "average speed cameras" means.

I went down a stretch the other day, on the M62. First lane full of trucks bumper to bumper. Got in the second lane, set cruise to 50mph (actual, not indicated). Picked up a truck behind me who spent the bulk of the roadworks about six inches from my back bumper, flashing his lights to try and bully me into going faster. Dunno quite what he expected

That's because it's average speed innit!! Not constant speed! in a 50 average zone, I spend the first part of the section pootling along at forty, then i nip out and bang along at 60, flashing at folks to get out of my way. This usually forces someone to exceed the limit over their average and get nicked, and they deserve it, for speeding, obviously. Me however, I've been all law-abiding and that.

Well, there's always going to be an eejit somewhere

hmmm

it's becoming increasingly obvious that you are wrong, TJ... Go on, admit it! it can't be that hard!

Hmmm. obviously it is that hard. 🙄

TJ, it's not just a plausible situation, it's a real one. it happened, and accelerating worked. The daft thing is, I'm not even particularly advocating the 'right to break the speed limit' position, I simply answered your request for a plausible situation. Failure of anticipation? yeah, right. cheers for that, because you're qualified to judge, ha ha! 😉

Yes there is a tiny range of speeds and distances where that could make a tiny difference but its so improbable

And that is as close as you'll ever get to TJ admitting you might have a point.

I'd leave it there if I were you.

Just for giggles though: okay TJ, what happens in that situation when you've got some muppet behind you driving six inches off your bumper, talking on his phone, changing the radio and arguing with his girlfriend?

If you brake hard he'll hit you and likely put you both under the truck.

If you accelerate hard you might both be able to get out of there before the truck smears you against the central barrier.

Graham - you have already made a whole series of mistakes to get into that situation. The answer is not to get in that situation. I never allow another car to tailgate me at speed and certainly not while overtaking a truck

V8 - to be in that situation you did fail to anticipate - you failed to anticipate the truck pulling out.

So as I said originally you had already made a series of mistakes to get in that situation. if yo had anticipated better you wouldn't have been o in that situation.

riding a bike as I have mainly done makes you a lot more vulnerable and one tends to learn to anticipate more - even tho you have far greater acceleration than the vast majority of cars in hundreds of thousands of miles the only times I have accelearte out of a situation is when Ihad already made a mistake and made myself vulnerable by going for a closing gap. thats the situation you are describing here

TandemJeremy - Member
cougar - what you forget is the effect of the car hitting something. [b]at 25 mph a person who is hit by a car survives - at 35 mph they do not [/b]How many thousands of deaths?

Are you actually quoting that bollx as a FACT.

Or would you happily admit that it's just some [b]misquoted[/b] stuff from an advert that you half heard on the TV a while back (but have forgotten most of so got it wrong)

Actually, to be fair Gee2daEss and V8, constantly chucking "whatifs" is pretty pointless in this discussion. We can all do our best to make up hypotheticals where we should be allowed to boot it out of a situation, but these situations will never occur at a statistical frequency as to make them any kind of reason for change of existing laws/limits.

TandemJeremy - Member

Graham - you have already made a whole series of mistakes to get into that situation. The answer is not to get in that situation.

This is a genuine honest to god Fact. Which I'll add some Supposition to- I reckon if people knew their car was limited to 70mph, they'd be less likely to put themselves in daft situations where they wanted to go faster to get out of their own mess. (and no, this isn't holier than thou, I've done it myself and been glad to be able to power out of it)

But since there are other, perfectly legitimate reasons for a vehicle to legally exceed the UK speed limit, I'm against limiters anyway.

So the speed at which you hit people makes no difference?

Really the bollox talked by those who are desperate for excuses to speed is laughable

speed all you want - I have driven at sustained cross country speeds that most of you never acheive - but I wouldn't claim it was safer, I wouldn't bleat if I got caught and I don't try to claim that speed cameras are a scam.

Are you actually quoting that bollx as a FACT.

Or would you happily admit that it's just some misquoted stuff from an advert that you half heard on the TV a while back

Actually, he's not [i]that[/i] far off. Maybe think about what you're typing when you're in a rush to bait TeeJ.

I have driven at sustained cross country speeds that most of you never acheive

TeeJ, you have pressed the red ****ing button. You eejit.

V8 - to be in that situation you did fail to anticipate - you failed to anticipate the truck pulling out.

This is brilliant.

No, I didn't fail to anticipate the truck pulling out, I merely decided that in the unlikely event of the truck pulling out, my escape routes would be either sideways if available (it wasn't)braking if viable (it wasn't) or acceleration if possible (it was). I'm still here, no collision occured, driving plan success, pat on the back to me.

🙂 For DD

Graham - you have already made a whole series of mistakes to get into that situation. The answer is not to get in that situation.

Not everyone is as perfect as you TJ - mistakes are how accidents happen. If your argument is that people just shouldn't make mistakes then why do we need [i]any[/i] speed limits?

I never allow another car to tailgate me at speed and certainly not while overtaking a truck

And how do you stop them exactly?

You're on a two-lane dual-carriageway approaching a truck. You pull out and overtake. While overtaking some muppet behind you either decides you aren't overtaking fast enough (or just isn't paying attention) and fails to maintain a suitable braking distance.

That kind of thing happens all day every day.

So the speed at which you hit people makes no difference?

Where did I say that ??

Nice try deflecting though.

Your quote was half remembered bunkum.

That's all I pointed out. I said nothing at all about speeding. Didn't try justify it in any way, or say anything about speed cameras.

I Just pointed out that you were making things up to justify your stance.

these situations will never occur at a statistical frequency as to make them any kind of reason for change of existing laws/limits.

Agreed, DD!

pat on the back to me.

Yes, well done. You are a driving God (though, to be fair, I think we'd all got that impression a long time ago).

I Just pointed out that you were making things up to justify your stance.

Well done. STW needs more people like you...especially when TeeJ is in full flow.

And how do you stop them exactly?

Well, I'm pretty sure he doesn't accelerate out of danger, anyway! lol

Seems to me that TJ has been hit by this truck

[img] [/img]

And how do you stop them exactly?

Anticipation. its the key to good safe driving.

And how do you stop them exactly?
Anticipation. its the key to good safe forum discussions.

I thought that was condoms Charlie?

Yes, well done. You are a driving God (though, to be fair, I think we'd all got that impression a long time ago).

I get the tone that this was said in, although my self congratulatory pat on the back was somewhat tongue in cheek.

I'm obviously not a driving god, and for anyone to think that they were would be dangerously arrogant, [i]but[/i] surely taking pride in your driving observation and anticipation skills is a good thing? no? encouraging a rise in actual standards of driving, rather than a robotic 'must drive at a set speed', but I can put me lippy on/drink my tea/chat on the phone/pay no attention to the road whilst doing it...'

Anticipation. its the key to good safe driving.

WHAT EXACTLY are you going to anticipate????

How do you anticipate that the lorry driver is going to have a seizure and swerve the lorry?

How do you anticipate him having a front wheel blow out?

Or that the guy who has sat calmly behind you for five miles will start arguing with his girlfriend, get angry and want to take out his aggression on you?

Is this you?
[img] [/img]

surely taking pride in your driving and observation skills is a good thing?

Indeed it is - which means not getting into situations like you describe. why did the truck pull out? was it going for an overtake?

Really? In what circumstances would accelerating to above the speed limit be safer?

A bloke I used to motorbike with had an incident with a drunk pedestrian who stepped out into the road in front of him, this was in the dark; his natural reaction was to brake and try to come to a stop, by doing so he did slow down but clipped the guy. To be honest I can't recall the full details, although I know he wasn't speeding, but anyway the police who attended said he should have accelerated and got past the guy....

I get the tone that this was said in, although my self congratulatory pat on the back was somewhat tongue in cheek.

Sorry, missed a smilie 🙂

However, what about everybody else on the roads who isn't up to your standards?

Graham - in the situation you describe you look for the car approaching from behind. You should be aware of every vehicle around you - those approaching from behind, those in front, you should be aware of anything the the vehicle you want to overtake may want to overtake. Yo should be aware of the positions and relative speeds of any vehicle that could be in a position to affect you during that overtake.

If someone wants to tailgate me I simply slow down and drop into the inside lane and let them by. this has saved me from a serious accident on a busy motorway. I will not pull out to overtake if somone is approaching faster than me from behind and will catch up with me during that overtake

How do you anticipate that the lorry driver is going to have a seizure and swerve the lorry?

How do you anticipate him having a front wheel blow out?

Or that the guy who has sat calmly behind you for five miles will start arguing with his girlfriend, get angry and want to take out his aggression on you?

More anomalies.

why did the truck pull out? was it going for an overtake?

Take your pick:

The driver had a heart attack.
He had a front tyre blow out.
The prostitute in his cab escaped.
A meteorite smashed down ahead, completely destroying his lane.
A child's face ran out onto the road.

Obviously being MysticTJ you will have anticipated all these possibilities. 😆

Graham - v8 was describing what he claimed was a real situation.

The driver had a heart attack.
He had a front tyre blow out.
The prostitute in his cab escaped.
A meteorite smashed down ahead, completely destroying his lane.
A child's face ran out onto the road.

More anomalies. 🙂

Can this be resolved perhaps TJ, by you applying you considerable intellect to create a plausible situation in which accelerating beyond the speed limit might be the safest thing to do? You're a smart fella, give it a go.

Graham - in the situation you describe you look for the car approaching from behind. You should be aware of every vehicle around you - those approaching from behind, those in front, you should be aware of anything the the vehicle you want to overtake may want to overtake. Yo should be aware of the positions and relative speeds of any vehicle that could be in a position to affect you during that overtake.

Yep and I do [u]try[/u] to be.

But you can NEVER anticipate everything. And you can NEVER be infallible.

(Well okay, obviously YOU are infallible. But the rest of us make mistakes and are sometimes wrong).

As I said the guy behind may have been quite happily tootling along behind you when he suddenly decides he wants to get a shift on for some reason (realises he is late / has a fight / hears a fast song on the radio / gets irate at the Today programme / whatever)

Or perhaps he has just joined from the slip road you passed a while back so you didn't get the chance to carefully assess his speed, attitude and demeanour before starting your manoeuvre.

If someone wants to tailgate me I simply slow down and drop into the inside lane and let them by. this has saved me from a serious accident on a busy motorway. I will not pull out to overtake if somone is approaching faster than me from behind and will catch up with me during that overtake

Yup that's my approach too, but it doesn't always avoid the situation. Other vehicles are driven by people who also make mistakes and bad decisions.

If someone catches up with me as I am overtaking a truck, or perhaps a line of several trucks, you would recommend...

You're a smart fella, give it a go.

If he proves himself wrong he disappears in a puff of logic.

v8 was describing what he claimed was a real situation.

Do lorries not lose control? Do lorry drivers not have strokes or make stupid mistakes? Does wildlife never stray onto the road?

You can't anticipate away every accident.

CharlieMungus - Member

Can this be resolved perhaps TJ, by you applying you considerable intellect to create a plausible situation in which accelerating beyond the speed limit might be the safest thing to do? You're a smart fella, give it a go.

The only one I can think of is if you have made a misjudgement and put yourself in the position of going for a closing gap. without making a mistake? I can't think of one

If someone catches up with me as I am overtaking a truck, or perhaps a line of several trucks, you would recommend...

Cutting in to the inside lane - slowing down to do so if necessary. But its clearly best to anticipate correctly and not get into that situation

The only one I can think of is if you have made a misjudgement and put yourself in the position of going for a closing gap. without making a mistake?

So just to be clear, you say having made a mistake of judgement, it maybe safer to accelerate beyond the speed limit.

a plausible situation in which accelerating beyond the speed limit might be the safest thing to do?

escaping from a river of lava?

Graham - v8 was describing what he claimed was a real situation.

Cutting in to the inside lane - slowing down to do so if necessary. But its clearly best to anticipate correctly and not get into that situation

escaping from a river of lava?

Need to be careful of these, they are very destructive, relentless and destroying any [s]thread[/s]thing they come into contact with

If someone catches up with me as I am overtaking a truck, or perhaps a line of several trucks, you would recommend...

Cutting in to the inside lane - slowing down to do so if necessary.

So in, say, rush hour on the M6, if someone got too close to you in the outside lane as you were passing a line of trucks, you'd brake and go behind them all (forcing them to undertake you) rather than just complete the manoeuvre? Really?

whilst not causing other drivers to take evasive action

How do you know?

[quote=deadlydarcy]

Actually, he's not that far off. Maybe think about what you're typing when you're in a rush to bait TeeJ.

Actually he is quite a long way off. 

And also I'm not "Baiting" TJ. 

I'm "Correcting" him. There is a big difference. 

And to try and weaken my point by saying I'm "baiting" is pretty poor. 

[quote=TJ][b]

at 25 mph a person who is hit by a car survives - at 35 mph they do not[/b]

Quoted as absolutes - it's absolute rubbish. 
.

So......[b]Nobody[/b] has ever survived being hit by a car at 35mph ???

And.....[b]Nobody[/b] has ever been killed by being hit by a car at 25mph ???
.

If facts and figures are used to prove a point, they need to be at least [I]nearly[/I] accurate or the point is lost. 

However, what about everybody else on the roads who isn't up to your standards?

I've never said we should be allowed to speed, or that we should have speed limits or cameras, just for the record.

How do you know?

you'd brake and go behind them all (forcing them to undertake you) rather than just complete the manoeuvre? Really?

I [i]think [/i] he meant he'd nip left in a space to allow you to pass. Personally if you were up my rear while I was overtaking at the limit I'd ignore you.

Quoted as absolutes - it's absolute rubbish.

Yadda frickin' yadda. Thanks for all that. Now can you think of a situation where you have to speed up to save the world? If the answer is yes, then join back in. 🙂

higher standards of tests

The have got significantly harder to pass in the last few decades.

introduction of compulsory retests

Obviously, [i]you'd[/i] get an exemption though. 🙂

😛

Obviously, you'd get an exemption though.

Cheers, but you're ok, ta. Why so arsey? All I did was answer TJs appeal for a plausible example where transient acceleration got someone out of trouble. And only did because it actually happened to me a week or so ago, on the M6. I don't even particularly fall on one side or the other of this particular argument, I just think that the problem is far bigger than just speeding. I don't think speeding is big or clever, and I don't have any particular beef with speed cameras, except that they get used instead of proper road policing.

I've never said that I'm an amazing driver, but I take the responsibility of controlling a two tonne lethal weapon seriously, unlike most, it seems.

Yadda frickin' yadda.

TJ makes up statistics off the top of his head to keep an argument going ....

And I get "yadda yadda" in response, for pointing it out 🙄
.

Is this one of those "big hitter" things I keep hearing about ?

Coffeeking is right.

Doing this has saved me from a very nasty accident on my bike.

Busy M6. solid cars lane 1 and 2, I am overtaking in lane 3 safe distance from car in front. car comes up behind me and tailgates, I slow, indicate left and drop into the middle lane, he goes and tailgtes the car in front . As often happens all the outside lane traffic concertinas up, the tailgtor hits the car in front hard shunting it into the car in front of that. If I had not dropped into lane 2 I would have been squished.

One feels very vulnerable riding a bike and this tends to make yo anticipate more and to give greater safety margins

V8 - why did the truck pull out? was it looking to overtake?

I said "Well done."

🙂

@v8, I'm only yanking yer chain mate...and desperately trying to side with Father TeeJ. 😀

There is good evidence* that speed cameras are very effective at slowing traffic. They are usually sited in areas that statistically have a high accident rate or potential for accidents, e.g. near schools or where a fast road enters a residential area.

It is a shame that a financial penalty has to be used to enforce safe driving, but it's more effective than just explaining the consequences of speeding and hoping people will do the right thing.

*Can't be bothered finding evidence and presenting it here, but don't take my word for it, do some research.