[Closed] Did it really happen

Errr what?

Only right wing lunatics say it was made up. No idea how many of them live in modern Germany, but there are plenty elsewhere

I mean I really know it did happen
But do some people still really believe it was made up by the allies
I can't believe they do,
I can't get my head around the systematic killing of a race of people

David Irving famously believes it is made up. There are quite a few who do.

A 14 year old exchange student told my daughter last year that the holocaust never happened and it was all made up by the allies.

Where was he from - Germany? It's illegal there to deny the holocaust - not sure I agree with that policy. But yes, it did happen.

I recently read 'all hell let loose' by Max Hastings. It's the first war book I have read. It includes accounts from both sides and is an upsetting read. The suffering was unbelievable. Hopefully we never have a war of this magnitude ever again.

Lot of left wingists are holocaust deniers, too. Anti-zionists mainly.

I was working at a video/film post production facility in the UK when footage taken from a newly liberated German WWII concentration camp that had just been released from its 50 year Official Secrets Act clause was being worked on.

It was horrific.

Perhaps the scene that typified that horror more than any other was an Allied serviceman using a huge military bulldozer to clear the piles of rotting and diseased bodies away. I always wonder how that driver coped later in life.

But...

The only real truths in life are things we can prove ourselves. For things we can't prove ourselves we are reliant on other people. We know governments lie, particularly in times of war.

I don't know what happened in the concentration camps. I'm fairly sure you don't either. Therefore I support no versions of events, I'm open minded.

I'll go ahead and deny the existance of such utter idiots.

It's illegal there to deny the holocaust - not sure I agree with that policy.

It's a very worrying policy, not too far removed from Nazi party mindset.

I don't know what happened in the concentration camps. I'm fairly sure you don't either. Therefore I support no versions of events, I'm open minded.

I know what you mean, but all one really needs to know is that some seriously evil people tried to wipe the Jews out in the most horrific ways possible and it must never be allowed to happen again. The rest is neither here nor there.

I watched the program on a few weeks ago. An account of life in several camps by a young girl. If it weren't for the Wife sitting with me I'd have cried openly. There's an image burned into my head now, of some children queueing up with suitcases.

I was born and educated in Germany until I started 'gymnasium' (secondary school). In Germany they drill into you how evil the Nazis were. In every year I was taught history and there was always a segment on WWII and Hitler. I can't describe how much they teach it and also to the degree they take it. Even when watching TV- you can flick through a few channels and there is guaranteed to be a history movie on WWII.

In contrast, when I came to England I was amazed at how little it is mentioned over here and also how it is taught. Try doing a Nazi salute in Germany. The village will outcast you. I think it's impossible for a German to deny it.

Hopefully we never have a war of this magnitude ever again.

also think there was an ulterior motive for ww2 involving the acquisition of german long range rocket knowledge, apart from the annexing of poland

But do some people still really believe it was made up by the allies

I've heard it described as the 'comfort of being a rebel'.

I think 1968 was the only year since (forever?) ww2 that no one in the British forces died in action.

Ska - interesting info - I had a German pal, born in 1966, and he was desperately ashamed of what happened.

Sort of like this, but serious.

[url=

Enfield[/url]

Edit - double negative

A 14 year old exchange student told my daughter last year that the holocaust never happened and it was all made up by the allies.

spchantler - Member
also think there was an ulterior motive for ww2 involving the acquisition of german long range rocket knowledge, apart from the annexing of poland

been to Dachau. It's an odd experience. There's a museum, and so on. At first when the Nazis were shooting the prisoners, (the industrialization of the whole thing came much later) there were worried reports sent back and forth from the camp to HQ and so on with regards to the obvious detrimental effects it was having on the soldiers. It's a strange squewd otherwordly view they had to have...

weirdly the camp before was a regular police station, during the war occupied by the gestapo, then after the war, the regular cops moved back in again!!...In all I came away just none the wiser about how a group of well educated modern western otherwise normal people (not the Nazis, normal germans) did this....

I don't know what happened in the concentration camps. I'm fairly sure you don't either. Therefore I support no versions of events, I'm open minded.

I suppose if you want to drift through life shrugging your shoulders and not making any commitment then that is a fine stance. I think it a bit odd, but there you go.

also think there was an ulterior motive for ww2 involving the acquisition of german long range rocket knowledge, apart from the annexing of poland

If you've not got those words all mixed up and I misunderstand you, then you are rather mixed up and I really don't understand you.

I'm not sure what's more frightening.

The views purported above or these people have the right to vote or perform jury service........

It's a very worrying policy, not too far removed from Nazi party mindset.

I think it's fairly understandable really, as a Country it's a way of standing up and taking responsibility for past events, and in doing so, learning from it.

We have a very different view of it here, we make jokes about the Wars, French surrender jokes etc. My German friend wouldn't dream of making any sort of joke about the wars, it would literally turn his stomach to think about it.

(I appreciate not all people from Germany have the same view, but that's the way he looks at things)

Did you ever go to school ?

Stayed in Krakow 16 years ago and yep even then none of the
apartments had been changed nor painted because incase the Jewish
descendants may come back and claim there family homes back

The Jewish synagog is still closed off for what reason i have no idea why

Went to Aushwitz in which was a Polish army Barracks and then 30 mins down the road
is Birkenau and yes unfortunately it did happen.
Average life expectation was one month unless you was under 1metre height

Stayed there with wife's friend and wife whom is German and apologised to us for
forgiveness for not wanting to go. She says its a subject everyone must learn when at school.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There will have been a holocaust, but it wont have been to the numbers that the allied forces reported.

been to Dachau. It's an odd experience. There's a museum, and so on. At first when the Nazis were shooting the prisoners, (the industrialization of the whole thing came much later) there were worried reports sent back and forth from the camp to HQ and so on with regards to the obvious detrimental effects it was having on the soldiers. It's a strange squewd otherwordly view they had to have... weirdly the camp before was a regular police station, during the war occupied by the gestapo, then after the war, the regular cops moved back in again!!...In all I came away just none the wiser about how a group of well educated modern western otherwise normal people (not the Nazis, normal germans) did this....

Banality of evil init, even the most extreme & horrific actions can become routine..

Good reading, well its a horrible but good reading all the same is - those were the days by Ernst Klee. Banned in Germany for years. Based on primary sources such as diary entries and soldiers letters on how it all started, also you develop a lot of sympathy for the young lads (some) who carried out the early mass killings.

Link (i think) http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1070138.The_Good_Old_Days

My uncle's Mother in Law was Polish and at the age of 13 was captured and taken to Auschwitz.
She was not Jewish, however they branded her arm with numbers that she showed to me when I was a child. Horrifying to witness the marks and some of the tales that she told were hard to believe, believe them I did.

She was a much loved, clever lady who never got over what happened during the war.

There will have been a holocaust, but it wont have been to the numbers that the allied forces reported.

Reference for that, or just another tinfoil-hat wearer?

Tootall - Are you stalking me?

What? You post something really quite odd on a thread I have already posted on, which I question, and come back with that?

Perhaps now that TJ etc have gone the odd things you say stand out more so I comment more on them. You're certainly not worth the effort of stalking. You're not my type.

I visited Sachsenhausen concentration camp when doing my A-levels and it was an eerie place.

When I was at uni I did a work placement at a company in a small town called Helmbrechts, North Bavaria. A couple of the people working there asked me & the other student I was there with why we wanted to come to Germany & didn't we hate the Germans because of the war?
It wasn't until several yrs later that I learnt that Helmbrechts was the site of a 'halfway house' concentration camp I think for people being moved to aushwitz.

Lovely place though, Helmbrechts & lovely people. It saddened me somewhat to know that there were young people there who were burdened with what had gone before & really worried about how others viewed them because of that.

I highly recommended this for anyone interested in the holocaust.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/If-This-Man-The-Truce/dp/0349100136

Only right wing lunatics say it was made up. No idea how many of them live in modern Germany, but there are plenty elsewhere

Lot of left wingists are holocaust deniers, too. Anti-zionists mainly.

The only real truths in life are things we can prove ourselves. For things we can't prove ourselves we are reliant on other people.

We know governments lie, particularly in times of war.

I don't know what happened in the concentration camps. I'm fairly sure you don't either. Therefore I support no versions of events, I'm open minded.

It's illegal there to deny the holocaust - not sure I agree with that policy.

It's a very worrying policy, not too far removed from Nazi party mindset.

Look into what happened in Rawanda too. Its amazing.

There's some very, very odd comments on this thread.

I can certainly see why it's law in Germany to not be able to deny the holocaust.
And if it's not real, why worry about denying it?
I thought the estimates were for around 5million people, Glupton, do you have any links to show it wasn't? Really interested in this.
To say you can't possibly decide on something because you havn't personally witnessed it it utterly batshit mental.

glupton1976 - Member

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There will have been a holocaust, but it wont have been to the numbers that the allied forces reported.

Well, Eichmann himself came up with the figure of 6 million, just for the Jews killed.

Where do you get your information from?

The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime is still subject to further research. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed. However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable.

5.6-6.1 million Jews
3.5-6 million Slavic civilians
2.5-4 million POWs
1-1.5 million political dissidents
200 000-800 000 Roma & Sinti
200 000-300 000 handicapped
10 000-250 000 homosexuals
2 000 Jehovah's Witnesses

Info from http://www.world-war-2.info/holocaust/

From what I have read, the Germans were meticulous in their record keeping and the surviving records give some of the extent.

Some of the denial comments above are, indeed, worrying: Either they are genuinely delusional or they are arguing for the sake of arguing.

"I thought the estimates were for around 5million people, Glupton, do you have any links to show it wasn't? Really interested in this."

Do you have any links to say that it was 5 million people? Links that are not written by biased sources?

My comment was merely that the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

Some folk say no holocaust happened some folk say 5 million were killed - truth could be anywhere in the middle. 2.5 million folk killed is still genocide though.

Thought i was on irantrackworld for a moment
ajiminijadalibad would be proud

"I thought the estimates were for around 5million people, Glupton, do you have any links to show it wasn't? Really interested in this."

Do you have any links to say that it was 5 million people? Links that are not written by biased sources?

My comment was merely that the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

Some folk say no holocaust happened some folk say 5 million were killed - truth could be anywhere in the middle. 2.5 million folk killed is still genocide though.

Unbiased sources you say? http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/homepage/index.html

You can go see the evidence for yourself, if you'd like.

What nealglover said above about his German friend...

I have a bessie mate who lives in Germany, married to a German girl, with whom I get to spend a bit of time, including a couple of weeks last year. I love visiting Germany. It's a lovely country with some amazing scenery and a great bar/cafe culture, especially in some of the towns and smaller cities that weren't bombed to oblivion. In some ways I'm glad that they've almost given up on trying to get Brits to visit on holidays. I'm looking forward to a week on a farm in the Black Forest in June.

Younger Germans can talk quite openly about the war and they don't suffer with the massive guilty conscience that afflicts some of their parents. There is a sensitivity about extreme nationalism there that we can't understand. AFAIK, there is some rule whereby members of certain far right parties have to register themselves with the authorities (I need to look this up to be sure of it though, I'm only going on what my mate told me). As weird as this would be for us here, you can understand why Germans over compensate in their desire to ensure no single movement could gain the kind of momentum that the NAZI party gained in the thirties. Any German I met of our generation would have facepalmed at the thought of someone denying that there had been a holocaust.

Mrs Rickmeister is German and the Holocaust Denial Law does exist, but, its not just Germany it wourld seem. But its understandable that Germany gets tagged with it more readily. A UK Bishop was tried a few years ago for denying it...

A survey of the sixteen countries that have enacted laws
that either directly criminalize Holocaust denial or can be used
to prosecute individuals who deny the Holocaust: Austria,
Belgium, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel,
Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania
Slovakia, and Switzerland

Presently, sixteen countries have enacted laws that either
directly criminalize Holocaust denial or can be used to
prosecute individuals who deny the Holocaust. Austria,
Belgium, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary,
Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland,
Portugal, Romania, Slovakia1, and Switzerland have
instituted such laws.2

In addition, the courts in The Netherlands often consider
Holocaust denial a form of spreading hatred, which is a
punishable offense.3

Taken from [url= http://http://beta.genocidepreventionnow.org/Portals/0/docs/Laws_Banning_Holocaust%20Denial_blog.pdf ]This[/url]

the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

Whatever. 🙄

Come on, I'm quoting the figure that 'everyone' knows, the one we were all taught at school. There's literally thousands of sources, but not a single one will be unbiased. As they were written by humans.
I assume as you're saying it's somewhere in the middle of 0 - 5,000,000 (which is a LOW estimate as it's purely the Jewish dead, not balance of the non Jewish) in which case you're spouting something called "bollocks" and just want an argument.
Please feel free to report me again.

awesomely well argued retort
I think you just convinced the cynics there about Gluptons law

See above. 🙄

the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

He's right.
We got halfway to the Moon and turned back.

Look into what happened in Rawanda too. Its amazing.

Absolute batshit mental genocide. Something like 4.4 the killing rate of Auschwitz at its most 'productive' with over 80% of the killing done by hand, by people/kids under 21. All in 4weeks too and it was only a few years ago.

Good point Rusty
No go on glupton explain how this law works in relation to the moon claim then if you prefer

Its utter bobbins hence you are reduced to just eye rolling, somewhat pathetically.

There's literally thousands of sources, but not a single one will be unbiased. As they were written by humans.

What?? What???

Is everyone out to get you too? I don't think it is a full moon.

Junkyard - Member

What happens if I claim 2 billion died do we up the estimate ?

No, because we're using the modal average. 🙂

Is this something we really need to argue about?
Millions of people were killed, and in a way it's sweet and positive that the OP has trouble getting his head around it.

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Neither is the scale of the Holocaust.

Tootall, no, not delusional paranoia. Just saying that any source could be argued to be biased if you we're an utter numpty and just wanted an argument. Nothing sinister.
Personally I believe it happen, that it was well over 6million people and I can't get begin to get my head around why on any level from nazi party politics to the man pulling the trigger.

That's debatable.

Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

It's great to read the accounts of people who have been brought up in Germany, I'm heartened to see that they are teaching children the real version of their country's history.
I heard a comment last week that German is not a nationality, its an accusation
Made me smile, but sounds like it is very unfair to the current population

Come on now, at least chumpton's contribution to this thread is different to his usual comment of

'There are some idiots on this thread'

or a slight variation thereof, followed up with nothing else.

Ive been to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem.fantastic building built as a triangular concrete toblerone through a large hill, balanced on the top.

You walk in past armed guards with machine guns,go through metal detectors,and youre in a bright well presented place,you slowly wander round, looking at the exhibits, all of a sudden your eyes water as you read something, or see a picture, you feel ashamed to cry and look round, and see others crying some quite loudly, people being led out, then you muster your manliness and continue walking.
Then youre outside, and it all becomes so real,so horrible, and so well documented, you just hope it can never happen again.

BUT IT DOES, AND FEW DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE NEEDLESS KILLINGS FOR THE SAKE OF RELIGION, OR COLOUR, OR JUST BECAUSE THEY DONT LIKE THEIR NEIGHBOURS IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

"Why are there no definitive figures?"

I assume, even if you don't believe it happened, that you understand that if there was a holocaust, that the perpetrators wouldn't actually be that keen to say exactly what happened when it became clear that they were loosing the war and the allied forces would see the camps and could actually have destroyed some records?

That's debatable.
Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

Oh dear.

The lack of reading ability of some of the people on this forum is staggering at times.

is it more or less staggering than your inability to explain your law?

You want a reaction ,you get one then you get upset.

I really dont understand what you "get" from the internet tbh but everyone should have a hobby.

The lack of reading ability of some of the people on this forum is staggering at times.

I ceased to be staggered by it a long time ago. I'm surprised you are tbh

Ok, the blokes a dick. There's no other explanation. In the interests of not ranting at a screen all evening, I'm going to do my best to never respond to him again.

*wanders off to start a driving thread....*

*wanders off to start a driving thread....*

Top Gear - Did it really happen? [b][i]DID IT? WHERE'S YOUR EVIDENCE? EH? WHERE IS IT? [/i][/b]

The guy wasn't saying that it didn't happen just that there isn't any definite figures. But is there ever for these atrocities.

IMO millions were needlessly slaughtered, a horrendous tragedy that should never be forgotten. People are entitled to their opinion. Exact figures aren't going to change this.

I'm going to do my best to never respond to him again.

AFAIR, the modz did something to help with this.
Quite a few times.

Odd, that my younger son is a Sachsenhausen today with his school. I hope that he comes back properly informed. He will hopefully understand the scale of atrocities carried out against many there including Jews, Soviets, communists, And Homosexuals etc

CFH, we probably haven't learnt from the past but I do believe I can predict the future:
8pm BBC2. Tonight.

They started off just being arseholes, they built up to systematic genocide over several years. That's how it happened.

It's not just the Nazis and their policies regarding the extermination of those considered undesirable, Stalin and Mao top them by some considerable margin. Although glupton may like to argue the toss over these figures as well, seeing as how he's set himself up as the forum expert on these matters; http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/RummelDemocide.php

Death by Government: Stalin Beat Hitler but Mao Surpassed Both

R.J. Rummel

Powered by Translate
Alternative historian R.J. Rummel is recognized for his calculation of deaths caused by governments -- for which he coined the term "democide." Rummel argues that in the last century totalitarian governments killed more people than warfare.

Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I'm now trying to get word out that I've had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. One is Wild Swans: Two Daughters of China by Jung Chang, and the other is Mao: the Unknown Story that she wrote with her husband, Jon Halliday. I'm now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin.

From the time I wrote my book on China's Bloody Century, I have held to these democide totals for Mao:

Civil War-Sino-Japanese War 1923-1949 = 3,466,000 murdered
Rule over China (PRC) 1949-1987 = 35,236,000 murdered
However, some other scholars and researchers had put the PRC total as from 60,000,000 to a high 70,000,000. Asked why my total is so low by comparison, I've responded that I did not include the China's Great Famine 1958-1961. From my study of what was written on this in English, I believed that:

the famine was due to the Great Leap Forward when Mao tried to catch up with the West in producing iron and steel;
the factorization of agriculture, forcing virtually all peasants to give up their land, livestock, tools, and homes to live in regimented communes;
the exuberant over reporting of agricultural production by commune and district managers for fear of the consequences of not meeting their quotas;
the consequent belief of high communist officials that excess food was being produced and could be exported without starving the peasants;
but, reports from traveling high officials indicated that peasants might be starving in certain localities;
an investigative team was sent out from Beijing, and reported back that there was mass starvation;
and then the CCP stopped exporting food and began to imports what was needed to stop the famine.
Thus, I believed that Mao's policies were responsible for the famine, but he was mislead about it, and finally when he found out, he stopped it and changed his policies. Therefore, I argued, this was not a democide. Others, however, have so counted it, but I thought this was a sloppy application of the concepts of mass murder, genocide, or politicide (virtually no one used the concept of democide). They were right and I was wrong.

From the biography of Mao, which I trust (for those who might question it, look at the hundreds of interviews Chang and Halliday conducted with communist cadre and former high officials, and the extensive bibliography) I can now say that yes, Mao's policies caused the famine. He knew about it from the beginning. He didn't care! Literally. And he tried to take more food from the people to pay for his lust for international power, but was overruled by a meeting of 7,000 top Communist Party members.

So, the famine was intentional. What was its human cost? I had estimated that 27,000,000 Chinese starved to death or died from associated diseases. Others estimated the toll to be as high as 40,000,000. Chang and Halliday put it at 38,000,000, and given their sources, I will accept that.

Now, I have to change all the world democide totals that populate my websites, blogs, and publications. The total for the communist democide before and after Mao took over the mainland is thus 3,446,000 + 35,226,000 + 38,000,000 = 76,692,000, or to round off, 77,000,000 murdered. This is now in line with the 65 million toll estimated for China in the Black Book of Communism, and Chang and Halliday's estimate of "well over 70 million."

This exceeds the 61,911,000 murdered by the Soviet Union 1917-1987, with Hitler far behind at 20,946,000 wiped out 1933-1945.

For perspective on Mao's most bloody rule, all wars 1900-1987 cost in combat dead 34,021,000 -- including WWI and II, Vietnam, Korea, and the Mexican and Russian Revolutions. Mao alone murdered over twice as many as were killed in combat in all these wars.

Now, my overall totals for world democide 1900-1999 must also be changed. I have estimated it to be 174,000,000 murdered, of which communist regimes murdered about 148,000,000. Also, compare this to combat dead. Communists overall have murdered four times those killed in combat, while globally the democide toll was over six times that number.

Read more on the Dr. Rummel website (new window will open).

Posted: 04-Dec-05

Copyright © 2001-2013 OrthodoxyToday.org. All rights reserved. Any reproduction of this article is subject to the policy of the individual copyright holder. Follow copyright link for details.

glupton1976 - Member
That's debatable.

Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

There are always going to be debates about numbers. Over the years the figure has come to be accepted as between 5 and 6 million. This has such a wide range as the areas that had the largest Jewish populations eg Poland (Jewish community flourished after Henry 8th had expelled from UK btw,ended up building the linen trade)saw some of the worse fighting,human rights violations etc. The above number is based on pre war census records,pensions, synagogue membership record and of all things,Russian accounts released in the 90's (based on the camps they liberated)Initial claims were 7,then 9 and for the last 20 odd years have beenn between 5 and 6.
I run a school trip there every 2 years. Not many Holocaust deniers among the young people at my school once they have seen the camp.As an aside, it wasn't killing that was a prob, it was disposal of the bodies.Also, before the war the Nazis favoured relocation to Madagascar.

rickmeister - Member
CFH, we probably haven't learnt from the past but I do believe I can predict the future:
8pm BBC2. Tonight.

When will we ever learn the lessons of history, eh? When?

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”

"History is written by the winners." 😀

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”

Indeed.
[img] [/img]

"Other channels are available"

I suppose if you want to drift through life shrugging your shoulders and not making any commitment then that is a fine stance.

Because I believe in provable facts and solid evidence, and therefore don't have a definitive view of ALL aspects of THIS particular topic, you automatically presume I don't have a definitive view on any topic?

Pray tell how on earth did you came to that conclusion?

I think it a bit odd, but there you go.

Based on your current logic I imagine you think a great many things in life are odd, but there you go.

In fairness tucker, that's exactly how it came across.

I am interest though, is there not enough evidence of the holacaust to make you think it probably happened? Kind of survivors testaments, camps, german records and the absence of 5million Jews in 1945?

France too has an "apologie de crime de guerre" law that Le Pen fell foul of with his holocaust denial. Bloggers have also been prosecuted.

I spend a few weeks a year in Germany and don't consider the war a taboo subject. On an exchange I was explaining to a group of French kids why there were no buildings over 70 years old in Heilbronn. My German counterpart made some quips about the work of the RAF and I countered telling him my grandfather was in Coventry in 40, adding that he survived after a short pause. Good humoured banter.

Something that's true for me and all of us on this thread: als ich geboren wurde, war der Krieg längst vorbei.