[Closed] Did it really happen

awesomely well argued retort
I think you just convinced the cynics there about Gluptons law

See above. 🙄

the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

He's right.
We got halfway to the Moon and turned back.

Look into what happened in Rawanda too. Its amazing.

Absolute batshit mental genocide. Something like 4.4 the killing rate of Auschwitz at its most 'productive' with over 80% of the killing done by hand, by people/kids under 21. All in 4weeks too and it was only a few years ago.

Good point Rusty
No go on glupton explain how this law works in relation to the moon claim then if you prefer

Its utter bobbins hence you are reduced to just eye rolling, somewhat pathetically.

There's literally thousands of sources, but not a single one will be unbiased. As they were written by humans.

What?? What???

Is everyone out to get you too? I don't think it is a full moon.

Junkyard - Member

What happens if I claim 2 billion died do we up the estimate ?

No, because we're using the modal average. 🙂

Is this something we really need to argue about?
Millions of people were killed, and in a way it's sweet and positive that the OP has trouble getting his head around it.

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Neither is the scale of the Holocaust.

Tootall, no, not delusional paranoia. Just saying that any source could be argued to be biased if you we're an utter numpty and just wanted an argument. Nothing sinister.
Personally I believe it happen, that it was well over 6million people and I can't get begin to get my head around why on any level from nazi party politics to the man pulling the trigger.

That's debatable.

Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

It's great to read the accounts of people who have been brought up in Germany, I'm heartened to see that they are teaching children the real version of their country's history.
I heard a comment last week that German is not a nationality, its an accusation
Made me smile, but sounds like it is very unfair to the current population

Come on now, at least chumpton's contribution to this thread is different to his usual comment of

'There are some idiots on this thread'

or a slight variation thereof, followed up with nothing else.

Ive been to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem.fantastic building built as a triangular concrete toblerone through a large hill, balanced on the top.

You walk in past armed guards with machine guns,go through metal detectors,and youre in a bright well presented place,you slowly wander round, looking at the exhibits, all of a sudden your eyes water as you read something, or see a picture, you feel ashamed to cry and look round, and see others crying some quite loudly, people being led out, then you muster your manliness and continue walking.
Then youre outside, and it all becomes so real,so horrible, and so well documented, you just hope it can never happen again.

BUT IT DOES, AND FEW DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE NEEDLESS KILLINGS FOR THE SAKE OF RELIGION, OR COLOUR, OR JUST BECAUSE THEY DONT LIKE THEIR NEIGHBOURS IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

"Why are there no definitive figures?"

I assume, even if you don't believe it happened, that you understand that if there was a holocaust, that the perpetrators wouldn't actually be that keen to say exactly what happened when it became clear that they were loosing the war and the allied forces would see the camps and could actually have destroyed some records?

That's debatable.
Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

Oh dear.

The lack of reading ability of some of the people on this forum is staggering at times.

is it more or less staggering than your inability to explain your law?

You want a reaction ,you get one then you get upset.

I really dont understand what you "get" from the internet tbh but everyone should have a hobby.

The lack of reading ability of some of the people on this forum is staggering at times.

I ceased to be staggered by it a long time ago. I'm surprised you are tbh

Ok, the blokes a dick. There's no other explanation. In the interests of not ranting at a screen all evening, I'm going to do my best to never respond to him again.

*wanders off to start a driving thread....*

*wanders off to start a driving thread....*

Top Gear - Did it really happen? [b][i]DID IT? WHERE'S YOUR EVIDENCE? EH? WHERE IS IT? [/i][/b]

The guy wasn't saying that it didn't happen just that there isn't any definite figures. But is there ever for these atrocities.

IMO millions were needlessly slaughtered, a horrendous tragedy that should never be forgotten. People are entitled to their opinion. Exact figures aren't going to change this.

I'm going to do my best to never respond to him again.

AFAIR, the modz did something to help with this.
Quite a few times.

Odd, that my younger son is a Sachsenhausen today with his school. I hope that he comes back properly informed. He will hopefully understand the scale of atrocities carried out against many there including Jews, Soviets, communists, And Homosexuals etc

CFH, we probably haven't learnt from the past but I do believe I can predict the future:
8pm BBC2. Tonight.

They started off just being arseholes, they built up to systematic genocide over several years. That's how it happened.

It's not just the Nazis and their policies regarding the extermination of those considered undesirable, Stalin and Mao top them by some considerable margin. Although glupton may like to argue the toss over these figures as well, seeing as how he's set himself up as the forum expert on these matters; http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/RummelDemocide.php

Death by Government: Stalin Beat Hitler but Mao Surpassed Both

R.J. Rummel

Powered by Translate
Alternative historian R.J. Rummel is recognized for his calculation of deaths caused by governments -- for which he coined the term "democide." Rummel argues that in the last century totalitarian governments killed more people than warfare.

Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I'm now trying to get word out that I've had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. One is Wild Swans: Two Daughters of China by Jung Chang, and the other is Mao: the Unknown Story that she wrote with her husband, Jon Halliday. I'm now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin.

From the time I wrote my book on China's Bloody Century, I have held to these democide totals for Mao:

Civil War-Sino-Japanese War 1923-1949 = 3,466,000 murdered
Rule over China (PRC) 1949-1987 = 35,236,000 murdered
However, some other scholars and researchers had put the PRC total as from 60,000,000 to a high 70,000,000. Asked why my total is so low by comparison, I've responded that I did not include the China's Great Famine 1958-1961. From my study of what was written on this in English, I believed that:

the famine was due to the Great Leap Forward when Mao tried to catch up with the West in producing iron and steel;
the factorization of agriculture, forcing virtually all peasants to give up their land, livestock, tools, and homes to live in regimented communes;
the exuberant over reporting of agricultural production by commune and district managers for fear of the consequences of not meeting their quotas;
the consequent belief of high communist officials that excess food was being produced and could be exported without starving the peasants;
but, reports from traveling high officials indicated that peasants might be starving in certain localities;
an investigative team was sent out from Beijing, and reported back that there was mass starvation;
and then the CCP stopped exporting food and began to imports what was needed to stop the famine.
Thus, I believed that Mao's policies were responsible for the famine, but he was mislead about it, and finally when he found out, he stopped it and changed his policies. Therefore, I argued, this was not a democide. Others, however, have so counted it, but I thought this was a sloppy application of the concepts of mass murder, genocide, or politicide (virtually no one used the concept of democide). They were right and I was wrong.

From the biography of Mao, which I trust (for those who might question it, look at the hundreds of interviews Chang and Halliday conducted with communist cadre and former high officials, and the extensive bibliography) I can now say that yes, Mao's policies caused the famine. He knew about it from the beginning. He didn't care! Literally. And he tried to take more food from the people to pay for his lust for international power, but was overruled by a meeting of 7,000 top Communist Party members.

So, the famine was intentional. What was its human cost? I had estimated that 27,000,000 Chinese starved to death or died from associated diseases. Others estimated the toll to be as high as 40,000,000. Chang and Halliday put it at 38,000,000, and given their sources, I will accept that.

Now, I have to change all the world democide totals that populate my websites, blogs, and publications. The total for the communist democide before and after Mao took over the mainland is thus 3,446,000 + 35,226,000 + 38,000,000 = 76,692,000, or to round off, 77,000,000 murdered. This is now in line with the 65 million toll estimated for China in the Black Book of Communism, and Chang and Halliday's estimate of "well over 70 million."

This exceeds the 61,911,000 murdered by the Soviet Union 1917-1987, with Hitler far behind at 20,946,000 wiped out 1933-1945.

For perspective on Mao's most bloody rule, all wars 1900-1987 cost in combat dead 34,021,000 -- including WWI and II, Vietnam, Korea, and the Mexican and Russian Revolutions. Mao alone murdered over twice as many as were killed in combat in all these wars.

Now, my overall totals for world democide 1900-1999 must also be changed. I have estimated it to be 174,000,000 murdered, of which communist regimes murdered about 148,000,000. Also, compare this to combat dead. Communists overall have murdered four times those killed in combat, while globally the democide toll was over six times that number.

Read more on the Dr. Rummel website (new window will open).

Posted: 04-Dec-05

Copyright © 2001-2013 OrthodoxyToday.org. All rights reserved. Any reproduction of this article is subject to the policy of the individual copyright holder. Follow copyright link for details.

glupton1976 - Member
That's debatable.

Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

There are always going to be debates about numbers. Over the years the figure has come to be accepted as between 5 and 6 million. This has such a wide range as the areas that had the largest Jewish populations eg Poland (Jewish community flourished after Henry 8th had expelled from UK btw,ended up building the linen trade)saw some of the worse fighting,human rights violations etc. The above number is based on pre war census records,pensions, synagogue membership record and of all things,Russian accounts released in the 90's (based on the camps they liberated)Initial claims were 7,then 9 and for the last 20 odd years have beenn between 5 and 6.
I run a school trip there every 2 years. Not many Holocaust deniers among the young people at my school once they have seen the camp.As an aside, it wasn't killing that was a prob, it was disposal of the bodies.Also, before the war the Nazis favoured relocation to Madagascar.

rickmeister - Member
CFH, we probably haven't learnt from the past but I do believe I can predict the future:
8pm BBC2. Tonight.

When will we ever learn the lessons of history, eh? When?

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”

"History is written by the winners." 😀

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”

Indeed.
[img] [/img]

"Other channels are available"

I suppose if you want to drift through life shrugging your shoulders and not making any commitment then that is a fine stance.

Because I believe in provable facts and solid evidence, and therefore don't have a definitive view of ALL aspects of THIS particular topic, you automatically presume I don't have a definitive view on any topic?

Pray tell how on earth did you came to that conclusion?

I think it a bit odd, but there you go.

Based on your current logic I imagine you think a great many things in life are odd, but there you go.

In fairness tucker, that's exactly how it came across.

I am interest though, is there not enough evidence of the holacaust to make you think it probably happened? Kind of survivors testaments, camps, german records and the absence of 5million Jews in 1945?

France too has an "apologie de crime de guerre" law that Le Pen fell foul of with his holocaust denial. Bloggers have also been prosecuted.

I spend a few weeks a year in Germany and don't consider the war a taboo subject. On an exchange I was explaining to a group of French kids why there were no buildings over 70 years old in Heilbronn. My German counterpart made some quips about the work of the RAF and I countered telling him my grandfather was in Coventry in 40, adding that he survived after a short pause. Good humoured banter.

Something that's true for me and all of us on this thread: als ich geboren wurde, war der Krieg längst vorbei.

Tucker just defend what you said dont dance off on a tangent

The only real truths in life are things we can prove ourselves. For things we can't prove ourselves we are reliant on other people. We know governments lie, particularly in times of war.

I don't know what happened in the concentration camps. I'm fairly sure you don't either. Therefore I support no versions of events, I'm open minded.

Based on your current logic

I am interest though, is there not enough evidence of the holacaust to make you think it probably happened?

Nobody is saying that the holocaust didnt happen... And I was merely pointing out that you should never trust numbers that come from people who have an biased interest in the size of those numbers. Nobody is claiming anything different.

Only a complete and utter cretin would deny that the holocaust happened. Likewise, only someone of limited intellect would disagree with the idea that figures for deaths in conflict, written by the winners of that conflict, are at risk of being biased.

Tucker

The only real truths in life are things we can prove ourselves.

Which is a pretty big statement that seems to go wider than your view on a single topic and would make it rather tough to have a definitive view on most things.

I don't know what happened in the concentration camps. I'm fairly sure you don't either. Therefore I support no versions of events, I'm open minded.

You saw film footage. You have some idea what happened in there. To say you support no versions and you are open minded is vague and stubborn for no reason.

BTW - others were also baffled by your 'logic'.

Likewise, only someone of limited intellect would disagree with the idea that figures for deaths in conflict, written by the winners of that conflict, are at risk of being biased.

You will distrust NICE next for bias as it is govt funded etc

Nothing will be ever neutral as everyone has an agenda - except you of course you objective seeker of truth and righter of wrongs

The losers seem to be coming up with ever [url= http://www.zeit.de/2007/25/27-Millionen-Tote ]bigger numbers[/url] for WWII.

I've done a bit of Googling in German and the Germans themselves consider 6 million a reasonable figure. If you want a minimum then [url= http://www.yadvashem.org/ ]over 3 million recorded names[/url] is a start point (don't forget the loss of records due to bombing) and some (probably biased) jewish researchers quote up to 14 million.

[url= http://db.yadvashem.org/names/search.html?language=en ]Names for 2/3 of jewish victims.[/url] Sorry, I got the wrong page in my last post.

But that can't be right, that'd make some people look like unread buffoons. Oh wait...

what's is quite surprising is that some seem to be presenting the opinion that the holocaust wasn't all that bad because it wasn't 5 million people, but more like 3million or so.

It's still pretty bad even it was that number isn't it?

Likewise, only someone of limited intellect would disagree with the idea that figures for deaths in conflict, written by the winners of that conflict, are at risk of being biased.

Actually it was in the Western Allies interests - specially the American's, to play down the true extent of Nazi War Crimes, as German industrialists, scientists, etc, many of them heavily involved in the Third Reich, were desperately needed to contribute in the postwar Cold War. A strong and confident West Germany which wasn't disadvantaged by an anti-Nazi witch hunt was therefore vital. The Germans were even allowed to have one war hero in the form of Field Marshal Rommel, despite the fact that in reality he was probably a committed Nazi just like the rest of the German High Command. And of course the American government needed former Nazi scientists to work on their space programme. All of which might explain Edukator's reference to the losers coming up with even bigger numbers.

BTW the US also did an excellent job, imo, of playing down Japan's Emperor Hirohito complicity - because it served their best interests to do so.

My mother, who's german, was 18 when the war finished. She'd seen her home (and the rest of the city) in Cologne destroyed by bombs. Like most others her age she will have been in the Hitler Youth.
After the conflict had finished she was debriefed by british intelligence and when asked what she had heard about the systemic murder of Jews, she replied that that was all rubbish. She was then shown a shoebox full of photos taken in KZ camps. She changed her mind after that...

As mentioned above, most of the missile techs the US were interested in had walked by slave labour in death factories on their way to their drawing boards each morning.