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CBA actually don't worry.
You can't call us immigration a success when the president candidate talks about building a wall to stop immigrants.
And same in Australia.
The points system works only for the people who follow it.
Illegal immigrants will come in in different ways.
You had a perfectly valid point before you edited your post nick... wasn't going to argue with that.
I'm aware.
just; political threads... nothing personal.
You know what Dave wasn't so bad...
I read this yesterday and it got me thinking..
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/theresa-may-grammar-schools-brexit-chaos ]Linky[/url]
despite hating most of what she writes ...got a point?
Fair enough, [url= https://www.reference.com/government-politics/british-prime-minister-elected-3b94ddd990d75edd# ]but for future reference[/url]:
How is the British Prime Minister elected?
The British Prime Minister is not directly elected; instead, he or she is appointed by the Queen
The British Prime Minister election first takes place at the local level. Before being elected Prime Minister, the individual must secure a seat in the Parliament. To become a Member of Parliament, the candidate must secure more votes than his rival in their locality. If any party secures a majority, the Queen invites its respective leader to become Prime Minister and form government.
US controlled immigration has been a huge success. Their issue is the 11 million illegal immigrants who have either sneaked in or overstayed their visas. As Trump said in Mexico 1 million Mexicans the US legally every day, no issue with that.
Australia has an open transparent immigration policy, it didn't used to be that way but it is now. It's always been economically successful though.
@clod you've not been around here on the policitcal threads that long so perhaps not. As for Goldsmith's campaign questions on some of the people Kahn has interacted with it wasn't great but imo hardly "off the charts" as you seem to imply.
Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea and one no one else has copied.
Other than the fact that the UK economy has benefitted from this freedom with EU migrants making a greater positive contribution that non-EU migrants
How stupid is that??
Jamba- the recent London Mayoral campaign by Goldsmith was a poisonous, vicious Islamiphobic campaign not really seen as overtly in Britain before. So, yes it was 'off the charts', that's exactly why the Tory leadership were so critical afterwards.
clodhopper - Member
...And aren't you now somewhat embarrassed about mentioning the USA, Canada And Australia in the context of 'uncontrolled immigration'?
Whilst I generally support free movement and immigration as a benefit, the original inhabitants of those countries may have an alter-native view. 🙂
Australian immigration policy - a shining example:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/10/explainer-how-to-read-and-interpret-the-nauru-files
Cameron's greatest achievement?
Making me, an able bodied and formerly apolitical person become an activist for DPAC and Black Triangle.
I'll live to see CaMoron, IDS, McVile Patel and Crabb tried for corporate manslaughter
DrJ that's not immigration policy is it ? That's trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades.
ulysee, strong words representing strong feelings I am sure. However, what is the issue and how can politicans be sued for something companies have done ?
DrJ that's not immigration policy is it ? That's trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades.
Oh, I see.
Thanks for explaining. Or maybe I mean thanks or jamsplaining.
Legal and illegal immigration are both parts of the whole immigration issue, you can't say it is successful when one of them is clearly failing big time.
Two totally seperate things imo. If you followed your own logic chris the EU's mmigration policy would be a total failure in your eyes.
On Libya a piece in the Independent Today on why the UN approved intervention was essential and how it saved many lives.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/libyans-like-me-are-grateful-to-cameron-for-his-air-strikes-and-westerners-crying-imperialism-need-a7307326.html ]Independent[/url]
jambalaya - Member
DrJ that's not immigration policy is it ? That's trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades...
Strangely it wasn't a major problem until Australia was involved in an Asian war, and in the aftermath locals who had been on "our" side sought sanctuary with us.
Maybe one way to reduce illegal immigration is to stop fighting wars in other people's countries.
Perhaps if the bombs were loaded with dollar notes instead of explosives, it would keep the people there, and may even be cheaper. 🙂
Illegal immigration by definition can never be a success. So the US and Australia are failing like everyone else on their immigration policies.
Today on why the UN approved intervention was essential and how it saved many lives.
Missing the point entirely!
Cameron (Hague & Fox also) were criticised by the Defence, Select Committee, The Head of The Army and Obama, not for their intervention but for the lack of any follow up plan and for 'becoming distracted' (self harming referendum anyone?) .
That's what cost lives, helped turn Libya into a failed state, gifted IS a huge haul of weapons and willing fighters, even the group that planned the Bataclan attack were founded in Libya
So we're in agreement there have been actual deaths of unemployed, Disabled and homeless people due to the actions and policies of a department of UK Gov PLC using a failed form of benefit denial tick box questionnaire designed by American insurance company Unum who were taken to court in the US and lost their case, for health insurance denial using the same system?
The Clapson family are crowd funding for the legal challenge against IDS for the death of diabetic ex squad die David, who's benefits were cut off meaning the electricity ran out and his insulin wasn't refrigerated, he was found dead with a stack of Cv's written out ready to be sent, £3 quid in his bank and a tin of tuna in the cupboards
Let's not forget his other achievements
400 libraries closed in 6 years is good going
20% of museums closed or partially closed
50% of all youth clubs closed
Who cares that those who benefited the most are from the poor end of society
If their parents had kept an offshore trust fund for them, then maybe they could've gone to Eton too
He did all that on his own - wow, he was superhuman (in an unpleasant kind of way). Amazing.
No he didn't, we're collectively responsible too, for not directly holding our own locally elected representatives to account,and disengaging from politics - not a mistake I'll ever make again
Yes of course we elected our governance so we are responsible too. I mean it has nothing to do with campaign lying, the nature of power in society or hegemony that allows these things to happen.
As someone once said ....only an understanding of hegemony can make you realise how we (UK) can increade it's wealth whilst poverty does not decline relatively, food bank usage rises, health and well-being declines etc.
For example...isn't it strange people calmy walk past food banks in the supermarket. Shouldn't we as society be standing up and saying WTF is going on to allow this...not only the fact such a rich society needs them but also how have we reached a situation whereby we calmy accept them being used instead of getting out and challenging our government over the need to use them. Shocking state of affairs.
Perhaps we could start with an effective opposition - as radical as that sounds. The last one was the Lib Dems and they were partners in a coalition.
I dont know about calmly accepting them. Mrs THM helps at our local food bank. Its up to individuals to do something to help others in ways that they sit fit.
After all a few years ago, some old bird did warn us that "there is no such thing as society" to fall back on. Unfortunately, that warning was misunderstood as a desire/policy and the core message lost. But those who fail to heed the message are likely to be the ones most at risk.
@thm...without wishing to to reject Mrs THM help...I would argue that by 'helping 'out' on food banks one is complicit in their need. Helping out is to accept their usage and is doing nothing towards trying to get rid of their need. Further, all these helpers are creating a situation whereby the government don't feel there is an issue. It's normalising the situation. I would prefer Mrs THM et al spent their time challenging the government to ensure decisons are made that enable society to not have to use them.
As with loddrick's school thread, I prefer practical solutions to hot air. Probably why I am not a fan of the current HM Opposition. I also think that you credit governments with far too much influence/power/ability. Hence my reference back to Fatcha's past warnings.
This idea that governments are the solution is quaint but misguided.
The government is not the solution? Er, so who makes the laws, decisions etc? Is it you? 🙄
For someone who spends all his time on political threads what a daft thing to say...
No they make the laws. Why do you ask?
They react to events, they rarely solve issues. Take responsibility and get on with it is a far better solution.
Oh dear...you really have no idea how society works...no wonder we're in this mess... 🙄
"Whilst I generally support free movement and immigration as a benefit, the original inhabitants of those countries may have an alter-native view."
I was hoping that Jambalaya would work out why his comments might be embarrassing, butI doubt he possesses sufficient awareness to be able to do so.
I note that once again, Jamba has failed to answer a simple question put to him. I suspect because he doesn't actually have an answer. Unsurprisingly. 🙄
"I dont know about calmly accepting them. Mrs THM helps at our local food bank. Its up to individuals to do something to help others in ways that they sit fit."
Charities such as food banks exist to try to solve the failures of society and governments. Whilst it's commendable that your wife volunteers in such a scheme, the fact is there is more than enough money in this country for food banks and numerous other charities to not be necessary. The massive rise in food bank use highlights yet another of the many failures of Cameron's government:
[img] 
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Look how steeply the curve rises following the 2010 election. Proof that the tories have completely failed to address poverty and inequality.
I dare say someone like THM or Jamba may now attempt to show why inequality is falling, but the reality proves that our society is now in a much worse position than it was 6 years ago.
"Oh dear...you really have no idea how society works"
That's probably because he spends all his time on internet forums like this one, and hardly any time actually going out and seeing what's really happening. The same is true for several people on here, sadly. 🙁
Wrong - I met a real person yesterday.
Interesting use of stats there though. Bravo. But you are right about the failure. Still you (Mrs THM) can do something about it, or whinge on an internet forum. Your/her choice 😉
Is that a bit like when Cameron met a black man in Plymouth?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/17/cameron-black-man-debate-gaffe
😆
"Interesting use of stats there though."
Your posting history cannot lie. 😉
Not posting stats - foodbank stats!
From Trussell
\We have a strong focus on [b]practical solutions [/b]to poverty.
Agreed.
Delays or changes to a person’s benefit are two of the biggest causes of referral to a foodbank. In many cases, these are down to problems with the way the Department for Work and Pensions administers benefits.
Unsurprising that inefficiency lies somewhere near the heart of all this
clod the steep rise in foodbank usage is due to the state of the economy which without Tory policies would be in much worse shape. Wouod you rather have Hollande's free spending and France's 25% youth unemployment ?
Inequality is the new bandwagon of the left as the reailty is we are all better off than we where 10, 20, 30 years ago. Also freedom of movement increases inequality depressing wages at the lower end and we have a goobal population expanding rapidly providing ultra low cost manufacturing labour. Spending on health nd welfare has risen substantially. Tax free alloance has doubled, minimum/living wage increases etc
As I have posted numerous times we can address inequality by having the top 1% leave the country and take the 30% of income taxes they pay with them. We could stop people like Mark Zuckerberg becoming billionaires etc
Wouod you rather have Hollande's free spending
Who has the more expansive fiscal policy or highest budget deficit to GDP. Free spending France or Austerity Britain?
Indeed. He has had to reign in his spending as they have hit the debt/gdp limit imposed by euro membership. Our economy is performing much better so we can afford to spend more.
Must reawaken the Corbyn thread regarding the naughty list
"clod the steep rise in foodbank usage is due to the state of the economy which without Tory policies would be in much worse shape. Wouod you rather have Hollande's free spending and France's 25% youth unemployment ?"
Classic Jamaba obfuscation; ignore the actual reality of a situation, then carefully select some bit of information and hope it proves a point. Add in some spurious claim based on opinion rather than fact.
"Inequality is the new bandwagon of the left as the reailty is we are all better off than we where 10, 20, 30 years ago."
Inequality is the reality of our society. We're 'better off'? In what deluded world is that true ffs? Steeply rising personal debt (mainly due to massively inflated house prices and huge mortgages), health and education systems left to rot in order to sell them off to line the pockets of the wealthy elites even further, higher education costs massively increasing, with the result increasing numbers of poorer people will either chose not to go to uni, or end up in massive possibly unpayable debt, child poverty increasing, massively increased hardship for millions of disable and vulnerable people, steep rise in xenophobia, increasing fear amongst the population, increasingly inadequate transport system, etc etc etc.
Yeah, we're better off.
Who's this 'we'?
"clod the steep rise in foodbank usage is due to the state of the economy which without Tory policies would be in much worse shape."
Did you actually look at that graph? If what you say is true, then that curve would have levelled out more, not steepened exponentially! It is absolute proof of the failure of tory policy! Even when presented with incontrovertible facts, you still see something different! 🙄
You are good value entertainment, I must say. 😆
As much as I abhor food banks, I'll still donate rather than see someone starve
We're 'better off'? In what deluded world is that true ffs?
Clod, you are quick to have a crack at Jamba and his facts, but do you ever check stuff before posting.
How about 2% pa real growth in incomes since the late 70s?
How about reductions and then recent stability in inequality?
How about
S: Official statsOver the longer-term, there has been a reduction in poverty rates since the late 1990s for children, pensioners and working-age parents, although the likelihood of being in relative low income has increased for working-age adults without dependent children.
You might be right on xenophobia though!!
As much as I abhor food banks, I'll still donate rather than see someone starve
+1 better to do something practical than whinge.
Since the turn of the millennium, changes in income inequality have been relatively small compared with previous decades. In the early 2000s, income inequality fell. This was in part due to faster growth in income from earnings and self-employment income at the bottom end of the income distribution. Policy changes, such as increases in the national minimum wage, increases in tax credit payments, and the increase in National Insurance contributions in 2003/04 are also likely to have had an impact.[b]The most recent peak in income inequality was in 2006/07 or 2007/08 depending on the measure used. Since then the broad trend has been one of gradual decline in levels of inequality on each of the measures.[/b]
the biggest source of personal debt and society's most prominent marker of success? show that things have been getting worse since erm, the ferrous female (dont wanna invoke ninfans law)
[img] 
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the insanity of this compared to wage growth...
[img] 
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"Clod, you are quick to have a crack at Jamba and his facts, but do you ever check stuff before posting."
Facts? Don't you mean Jambafacts? 😉
"How about 2% pa real growth in incomes since the late 70s?
How about reductions and then recent stability in inequality?
How about"
How about not entirely relying on 'official' stats and figures, which are invariably manipulated/distorted to suit whatever government at the time needs them to say? How about actually opening your eyes and seeing the reality of what's going on? How about not reducing everything down to basic economics and numbers? How about actually seeing for yourself, the real impact of tory failure on the very people affected by this, who are largely voiceless and mainly without advocacy?
And if you want some stats and figures, Kimbers above has some for you, plus there's the reality of housing costs being an increasing proportion of income for most people.
"+1 better to do something practical than whinge."
I agree. It's nice for some folk to give a couple of hours a week of their time to charitable causes, so they've got something to pat themselves on the back about, and gain the approval of their peers, but some of us think it takes a little bit more than that...