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Libya has little to do with ISIL
Which is not what the defence select committee says in their report!
Libya has been a recruiting ground and supplier of arms, (Gaddafi left a load of em) for IS since 2011. The group that masterminded the Bataclan attacks were formed in Libya.
Obama blamed Cameron and Hollande for turning Libya into a "Shitstorm"
Cameron wasn't a democrat, he was a poor leader who gambled and lost on many occasions
In March 2011, the United Kingdom and France, with the support of the United States, led the international community to support an intervention in Libya to protect civilians from attacks by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi. [b]This policy was not informed by accurate intelligence. [/b]In particular, the Government failed to identify that the threat to civilians was overstated and that the rebels included a significant Islamist element. By the summer of 2011, the limited intervention to protect civilians had drifted into an opportunist policy of regime change. That policy was not underpinned by a strategy to support and shape post-Gaddafi Libya. [b]The result was political and economic collapse, inter-militia and inter-tribal warfare, humanitarian and migrant crises, widespread human rights violations, the spread of Gaddafi regime weapons across the region and the growth of ISIL in North Africa.[/b] Through his decision making in the National Security Council, [b]former Prime Minister David Cameron was ultimately responsible for the failure to develop a coherent Libya strategy.[/b]
The Committee's view - including assessment of ISIL in N Africa (It is much more than the Levant) - is pretty clear and damning to me.
Dave's greatest legacy? He exposed the significant xenophobic and racist element that still exists in UK today. Not a great result, but a valuable insight nonetheless.
I would also add on a practical note that he changed my opinion on coalition governments. He demonstrated that they can and do work even in v challenging circumstances. That legacys is far-too-easily overlooked especially with the over-zealous attacks on old Cleggie
" He exposed the significant xenophobic and racist element that still exists in UK today."
Only by accident. And it's largely his own party that have created the situation that has led to an increase in xenophobia and racism in the UK, through their ideology and policies. Indeed, he himself has been guilty of exactly that xenophobic attitude; 'swarms', a 'bunch of migrants' and other such bigoted nastiness. As party leader, he completely failed to address the xenophobia within the tory party and on the right, or to actually show any leadership in at least attempting to improve UK society.
Dave's legacy? How much wealth he's made for himself and his mates.
Only by accident.
Clod, you dont spot tongue in cheek comments that easily do you!! 😉
I would also add on a practical note that he changed my opinion on coalition governments
I kind of agree but looking at what happened to the lib Dems I can't imagine anyone leaping at the chance to be the minority party in a coalition any time soon! (Tho lib dem+ Tory did seem unlikely bedfellows)
"Clod, you dont spot tongue in cheek comments that easily do you!!"
That's because I don't actually believe you intended it to be read that way.
Your choice...
..based on an informed opinion borne of facts. 😉
Time to hone you analytical skills then - how to evaluate a source!
Libya has little to do with ISIL, it's much more Syria and Iraq ie the Levant. The clue is in the name.
Apart from the fact that the weapons that bolstered their creation were imported by western intelligence services from Libya:
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Now where did the ideology that fuels their cause come from?
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[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/03/david-cameron-union-flag-king-abdullah-saudi-arabia-half-mast ]
David Cameron defends flag tributes to late King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia [/url]
Odd then that Prince Bandar Bin Sultan, the same guy who helped provide US support to Osama Bin Laden,
(Transcript here if video now blocked: http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/01/lkl.00.html)
set up the Al-Yamamah Arms deal (with £billions being unaccounted for)
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and [url= http://911raptor.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/the-kingdoms-phone.html ]was in contact with the 9/11 hijackers[/url] (including financial ties via CIA linked Riggs Bank)
was also charged with leading the Saudi contingent in Syria:
[url= http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920825000693 ]Prince Bandar to Lead Saudi Extraterritorial Military Force for War in Syria, Yemen[/url]
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Of course, much of this pre-dates Cameron's tenure as Prime Minister of Her Majesty's Government, but nonetheless, it raises questions as to just what compromises the intelligence services are prepared to make to bolster arms sales.
The Libya story today has certainly helped solidify Dave's legacy! 😯
Calling himself the 'Heir to Blair' back in 2005 really was quite prescient
he was busy tooling up the Middle East literally as the Arab spring was breaking out
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/05/david-cameron-gulf-arms-trip
Arms sales to Saudi for use perpetrating War Crimes in Yemen and helping create the next generation of Jihadists are still ongoing of course
"The Libya story today has certainly helped solidify Dave's legacy! "
Yeah, funny how he announced his rapid retirement just before the Libya story broke. What a coincidence. 🙄
Of curse, a cynical person might suggest he was warned of this by his mates in the media. But that would be cynical.
Time to hone you analytical skills then - how to evaluate a source!
tbh THM, some of your posts are esoteric to the point of being undecipherable.
😀
..warned of this by his mates in the media..
Given that it's come from a parliamentary committee, I think you're probably barking up the wrong tree regarding where any tip-off might have originated..
Cameron could do nothing about the rising tide of public concern about uncontrolled immigration. The same concerns exist throughout Europe and are mich stronger elsewhere. Austria have a far right candidate basically ties for Presidential elections, the French introduced a Burka ban 6 years ago, Poland and Hungary have said "no refugees" etc etc. The concept of freedom of movement quite simply makes no sense in a Union of 28 members of such widely varying economic strength.
That lefties hate Cameron, no surpise there as he delivered a minimum of 10 years of Tory government (coalition was a Tory government) and has run rings round the opposition. BTW Kimbers Labour are in a much worse state than the Lib Dems.
EDIT: the report said the miliatary action contributed to the rise of IS in Libya, my contention that no military action would have lead to an even more bloody civil war and even more IS as per Syria.
Also I imagine Cameron would have been fully aware of the publication date of the report, I imagine his resignation as an MP was timed to be before publication as to resign afterwards would just be much miore messy with political opponents claiming they "forced it"
So
1. He has a new lucrative job lined up - 49% chance
2. The ex-PM on the back benches issue - 49% chance
3. Any of the conspiracy theories - 2% chance
He has a new lucrative job lined up - 49% chance
By what means would this have happened?
Cameron could do nothing about the rising tide of public concern about uncontrolled immigration.
Clearly - as it doesnt exist in the UK
An interview?
After what selection process?
Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc and Merlot in the back bar?
You know how it is..... 😉
FFS tmh you have your head so deep in the sand on this it's frightening, you are making the same mistakes many on here have done over the last few years denying its a real issue and putting it all down to the Daily Mail. Open your eyes and look around the UK and round the rest of Europe. Look what's happenjng in Holland, France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia.
It's a real issue and if not dealt with the tensions will only get worse. If the Tories don't deal with it during Brexit there will be an electoral reaction in 2020 and not in favour of Labour.
The European economy is going to get materially worse and these tensions are going to be ratcheted up significantly
Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc and Merlot in the back bar?You know how it is.....
Steady on, that sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory 😉
I know and the eyes are very sore - but its not sand its from staring at real facts not made up ones! There is no evidence to support any of the BS arguments on immigration. The "fact" that the trends that you identify exist are all reasons why this debate should not be allowed to descend into the xenophobic gutter beloved of Brexiteers.
"Race" is a sorry and shameful excuse for not addressing the real reasons behind the challenges that we and other economies face. We should all know better.
As an aside my eyes are also open to the terrible humanitarian disaster that is Syria and my heart is saddened by our woeful reaction to it, let alone our responsibilities.
Steady on, that sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory
For clod's sake, that was a t-i-cheek comment!!
"Open your eyes and look around the UK and round the rest of Europe. Look what's happenjng in Holland, France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia."
Racism and far-right extremism (not to mention anti-Semitism, Jamba...) is massively on the rise across Europe, fuelled by right-wing ideology which ultimately seeks to divide people into more easily controllable groups, rather than have them united and with significant political power with which they could actively resist/overthrow said right-wing governments. It's the insidious spreading of fear, through media outlets, that helps facilitate the divide and rule ideology of the right. That's what's [i]actually[/i] happening in Europe.
It is not in the interests of the ruling elites, to counter this, as their power is totally reliant on a submissive, compliant and easily coerced labour force, who lack the political, economic and ideological power/will to do anything but obey.
The whole immigration thing is a smokescreen. Jamba; you may think your eyes are wide open, but you still can't see through the smoke.
After what selection process?
hands up if you've been PM?
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[url= https://www.carlyle.com/news-room/news-release-archive/john-major-appointed-european-chairman-carlyle-group ]John Major Appointed European Chairman of The Carlyle Group[/url]
But the defence select committee today said it was Cameron's fault for the rise of IS and therefore this 'swarm' of refugees and that has the right wingers across Europe so scared?
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A small consolation for Cameron is that Corbyn walked allover May today at PMQs
he must have taken a bit of solace from that as the last vestiges of his political reputation were dismantled by the select committee
@clod my point has always been (4 years I have been on about it now) that if the mainstream parties will not confront the issue they leave the door wide open for others and that carries a significant risk. Nowhere else in the world do you have freedom of movement, it's a stupid idea. Being against a stupid idea doesn't make you xenophobic, racist or a biggot. The countries with the greatest immigration have controlled systems, eg Australia, Singapore, US, Canada etc
@kimbers I watched PMQ as usual, Corbyn was indeed less terrible than usual but still very much second best to May. She also gave the SNP a battering pointing out that during the Referendum they had no credible plan on how they would stay in the EU in the event of a Yes.
So Jamby, what do you think is the root cause of scenes like this;
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this;
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and this?:
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it's a stupid idea.
On the contrary, the facts tell us v clearly that it is a good idea that brings positive benefits to the UK.
Being against a stupid idea doesn't make you xenophobic, racist or a biggot.
It clearly leaves one open to those accusations in the absence of any factual evidence that points to the contrary. None was evident during the Brexit debacle, hence the most obvious conclusion is.....
If any BSer can point to real evidence to support the idea that immigration has had a negative impact on the UK economy then I will change my opinion. Until then....
She also gave the SNP a battering pointing out that during the Referendum they had no credible plan on how they would stay in the EU in the event of a Yes.
imagine a bunch of secessionists having no plan (or a any sort of clue about reality) post referendum!! 😆
Well @jivehoney... Theresa May probably doesn't care for those images...in her last role she was responsible for the bus that drove around London with a huge sign telling immigrants to go home...clearly not a very nice lady.
"The countries with the greatest immigration have controlled systems, eg Australia, Singapore, US, Canada etc"
Well, if you're droning on about 'uncontrolled immigration', then you really shouldn't be mentioning Australia, Canada and the USA.... 🙄
"Nowhere else in the world do you have freedom of movement, it's a stupid idea."
Explain why, please.
In terms of immigration in terms of percentages of national populations, The USA, Canada and Australia are some way down the list, which is topped by the Vatican City, Andorra and Qatar. If you want to argue about economic impact of immigration, the top 10 also includes the UAE, Monaco, Kuwait, Singapore and Hong Kong. Interestingly, those are all rather wealthy nations with very high per capita GDP. Now we can use statistics and figures to argue anything, and it's interesting to note that Palestine has one of the highest percentages of 'immigrants' too, make of that what you will. And we could also argue that several nations in the top 10 have appalling human rights records, and massive economic disparity. But basically, facts show that immigration is not something that generally has a negative economic effect. Ergo, it is a political and ideological smokescreen.
@clod yes the rise in intolerance includes anti-semitism. That's in part why I have wanted the core issue dealt with all this time, to fail to do so leads to a darker place all round. As it stands the only way to deal with it is to vote FN etc. Now in the run up to the French elections Hollande is finally dealing with Calais and dismantling the camp completely and redistributiong the people around the whole country. Whether this will be enough to stop FN winning in the North I doubt, its too little too late and he will be eliminated in the Presidential Race. As you know you't can't achieve anything in opposition. The Poles and Hungarians elected firmly right anti immigration/refugee governments
"@clod yes the rise in intolerance includes anti-semitism. That's in part why I have wanted the core issue dealt with all this time, to fail to do so leads to a darker place all round."
Yet you never mention Islamophobia. Why not? Seeing as you claim to be so concerned with xenophobia...
"The Poles and Hungarians elected firmly right anti immigration/refugee governments"
One of the reasons I have heard from many people from those and other Eastern European countries, is that they feel their own nations are too right wing, and that they prefer to live in one that isn't so. For them, freedom of movement is a wonderful thing, as it enables them to live somewhere where the prevailing ideology is preferable. Which kind of flies in the face of your claim that such freedom is a 'stupid idea'. I'm wondering why you're against freedom?
You're very good at ignoring facts when presented to you, and going off on some other tangent. I think quite a few folk would actually like you to answer some of the questions asked of you, such as why do you think freedom of movement is such a 'stupid idea'?
And aren't you now somewhat embarrassed about mentioning the USA, Canada And Australia in the context of 'uncontrolled immigration'?
The Independent on the Libyian Report. "Hindsightism"
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/libya-david-cameron-isis-islamic-state-ultimately-responsible-left-citizens-to-fate-a7294271.html ]linky[/url]
Yet you never mention Islamophobia
Is that jamba wang?
Oh bloody hell, don't encourage him to breed!!
@clod both are equally bad. We have 5% of our citizems who are Muslims who absolutely deserve the same right to live and prosper in peace as any other citizen. Not wanting to accept large number of unvetted refugees many of whom are economic migrants from perfectly safe (if poor) countries isn't Islamaphobic. UAE, Saudi etc are taking zero refugees.
What tangent am I going off on ? Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea and one no one else has copied. You can achieve the economic and social benefits of migration with a visa system with preferential treatment given to those from within the EU if you wish.
Why would I be embarrased to me tion the success of US, Canadian and Australian immigration systems ? My family where £10 poms in '68
This may seem a touch off topic, but it's wholly relevant to the refugee migration problems the world is facing at the moment... the eagle eyed among you will note Prince Bandar makes an appearance at 0:37 ([url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0241144418/ref=olp_product_details/256-4448191-9424423?_encoding=UTF8&me= ]he's also one of the 1st characters mentioned in the book[/url])
This ties in to not only the conflicts in Libya and Syria which are part of David Cameron's legacy, but also the debates currently raging on Britain supplying arms to Saudi Arabia for the conflict in Yemen.
What action the current unelected Prime Minister of Her Majesty's Government takes remains to be seen.
"@clod both are equally bad. "
Yet I've never seen you condemn it on here, in the same way you tried to condemn the Labour party/Corbyn over the ridiculous and now proven to be completely unfounded anti-Semitism allegations. I've never seen you condemn the vicious, racist Islamophobic tory campaign against Sadiq Khan (whom you mentioned yesterday in the London thread, for why I still have no idea) during the London mayoral election campaign. I don't see you condemning the recent Islamophobia in France, regarding the farcical 'burkini' debacle. Etc.
"Not wanting to accept large number of unvetted refugees many of whom are economic migrants from perfectly safe (if poor) countries isn't Islamaphobic."
I hadn't even mentioned refugees, I thought we were talking about Europe? And the UK admits refugees from many non-Muslim countries, what has their faith/culture got to do with anything? And the UK doesn't accept 'large numbers' of 'unvetted' refugees anyway. So not wanting to accept them is an absolute nonsense. Germany took in more refugees from syria in one weekend, than the UK has agreed to take in in FIVE YEARS. Germany hasn't actually collapsed as a nation.
"Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea"
But why, exactly? 3 times now I've asked you this.
"Why would I be embarrased to me tion the success of US, Canadian and Australian immigration systems ? My family where £10 poms in '68"
Wow. Just, wow.... 🙄