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My eldest went to the village primary that failed it's Ofsted just he left, then to a local academy in the local (former mining and steel) town, which would have failed it's Ofsted - wife was a governor towards the end, he chaired the student council, it was a shambles.
He came out with 10 A*s and 2 As.
If they are bright, they'll do well anywhere. If they are not happy in the environment at private school, everything will feel like a struggle. A private school will offer wider (expensive!) extra curricular activities, maybe open doors down the line and better networking opportunities. My lad is looking at Cambridge for the networking opportunities as much as the degree it will get him.
Might be worth considering trying the private school with the state school as a fall back - not sure what the commitment is on a bursary. Easier to do it that way round than the other.
And fwiw, I know a couple of privately educated people. Pretty normal, but very different experiences of the world.
I don't have kids so shouldn't comment (not that that's never stopped anyone on here before), but the only thing I would worry about is what extracurricular activities there would be at the private school that might be expensive - can you afford to fund them? If you couldn't, would your daughter miss out (and feel/be left out)?
I'd ask the school about that. After that, I'd think it would be your decision not hers (I know nothing about being a parent!)
assumes that well off people are incapable of empathy and/or dealing with anything other than other rich people. Which is a stereotype that could be dispelled if ………….
Boris wasnt such a ****?
Another way of looking at it is:
Would your daughter do best being an average pupil at a school full of high achievers or top of the heap at a reasonable comp? There can be advantages to being a big fish in a little pool. This would obviously depend on the schools in question and your daughter's character.
You only get one chance at education.
Not strictly relevant, but I have to disagree with this. You can have as many goes as you like.
Nothing to do with Tim Nice But Dim being thick, more a “we’re paying for you to teach, you must be doing a bad job” attitude.
I think there is more of that in private, but it seems to have an increasing presence in state.
Most kids in private schools are not Eton like toffs….they’re usually first generation kids from poorer backgrounds who’s parents have done well for themselves.
Given the lack of, and declining social mobility in this country I'd be staggered if this was true, can we see your working out?
A private school will offer wider (expensive!) extra curricular activities
Do you actually know that or is it a guess? because I can tell you that any EC activities you have to pay for are no more expensive than a state school.... if they had them on offer.
You can have as many goes as you like.
Sorry I didn't know you could keep taking your GCSE's until you got what you wanted.
I would jump at the chance. I was lucky enough to be privately educated from 5 yrs old. Now putting my own children through state education I can see exactly where private is leaps and bounds ahead: in terms of facilities, teaching style, palliative care and <yes I am a complete snob> peers.
I go back to my secondary school every so often when they have an open day & the onsite facilities are utterly astounding with almost continuous investment. There are: music studios; an auditorium; a concert hall & theatre; fully equipped gyms; a swimming pool; a biology block; a physics block; a chemistry block; a design technology block; maths labs; numerous computer labs; language labs; a full 400m running track; a rifle range; several off-site sports fields; a rowing boat house.... There's even a masonic lodge buried in the dungeons (though nobody we know knew this was there until it was publicised in the alumni rag years after we left).
In comparison, my sister works at a brand new state secondary school. It's essentially a shed with some breeze block dividers and carpet tiles. They did have a sports field, it's now a housing estate. Before the new school was built she had to teach on the same site for 15 years in an asbestos-riddled 1960s brutalist heap.
The biggest advantage though is that everyone there is there to learn: willingly. They all want to succeed. Whereas my son's school has had to exclude a 6 year old for repeatedly attacking teachers; the head teacher has had to email the parents to ask that they get dressed before bringing their children to school and the house immediately in front of the school gates gets done over regularly by the police looking for drugs/stolen goods/people on the run.
I got a scholarship for 6th form and nobody ever used that against me. In fact I got nothing but praise from my peers. I suspect my son would get bullied for similar attainment at his current school (we're looking to move and private education is a possibility).
In terms of life chances I reckon school did more for me than university did: it developed my critical thinking, project management and problem analysis skills in far better ways. OK, so it may have made me an over-confident arrogant git (and possibly now from some angles a terrible person), but I've never been to a job interview for a position that I've actually wanted and not been offered the role.
In terms of social mobility: my dad grew up here, his dad was a machinist in the shipyards, my mum's dad a radio officer in the merchant navy. I was very, very lucky indeed.
I just went to a state school that sounded posh enough
Gonna recommend a re-brand to the local (highly performing) high school that has 'high school' in its name. Gonna search wikipedia for the names of late-17th C minor aristocrats.
I went to a (supposedly) top public school and I think it needs careful thought on your part. I ended up finding a Uni where no one from my school had ever been to, to get get away from the snobby and elitist c*$p that I saw there. The fact I didn't live in a fancy big house made a difference (kids would get teased for living in Balham, as it was a bit low rent!!) and kids can be cutting.
It was a very sporty (i.e. rugby) school, which wasn't me. It meant I lost touch with nearly all my local friends from beforehand and the friends I did have at school lived miles away. I keep in contact with one person now from school.
If the local state school option had been rubbish, I could see the benefits of private school, but for me now, my local school is half decent and I take the view I'll have the chance to be properly engaged and responsible for my children's education at a local school, and I'll see more of them.
The quality of the teaching at my school was also vary variable and some were truly shocking, some were brilliant. There will be a ton of opportunities and if they're of the mindset to make the most of them and will get on with the other children there at the same time, it could be great. Or it could cause them physcological issues for the rest of their lives!!
Nothing to do with Tim Nice But Dim being thick, more a “we’re paying for you to teach, you must be doing a bad job” attitude
You'll find that Tim probably wouldn't get in to the private school in the first place. At the end of the day they're a business and the single most important thing to them is results as that's how a lot of people (rightly or wrongly) rate schools.
If Tim doesn't pass the entrance exam then he'll not be accepted regardless of how rich daddy is. And if Tim's results aren't good enough, at pretty much any time, it will be 'suggested' that he may be better off somewhere else - don't ask me how I know!
Sorry I didn’t know you could keep taking your GCSE’s until you got what you wanted.
Sorry, not sure if sarcasm? Because you can. And education doesn't begin or end with GCSEs.
I dunno, still none the wiser.
Further concerns are , is my chippy working class bias getting the better of me?
Being a resilient strong character, won't she just inevitably do well wherever she goes ?
Will she be a bit different from the other girls ?
Basically there's a lot of unknowns and it feels a little bit like a social experiment that she's in the middle of.
Then went to King’s in Macclesfiield – which I hated.
I very nearly went to Kings (because I was bright and my parents wanted to do what they thought was best for me). In the end I went to the local comp (Poynton) cos, at the time, it was an excellent school. I'm quite glad, mainly cos everyone I ever met that went to Kings was an arrogant ****t. I hope we never met 😉
I have a niece who's at a v.posh private school (she's in the school polo club...) on a bursary, and two nephews at a 'normal but good' state school. I know it's difficult to make direct comparisons, but the difference in their attitudes, vocabulary and outlook is really marked. Just off that I'd have no problem sending my children (not that I have any) to a private school, assuming it was a good one.
Main thing though is it's a decision for you to make for her future, as her parent. The friends thing is understandable, but she'll make new ones within minutes of getting there.
If I had the two million pounds, I’d build a small coliseum where my pupils could watch local state school children get run over by bull-bar equipped Range Rover Velars.
Further concerns are , is my chippy working class bias getting the better of me?
Probably
Being a resilient strong character, won’t she just inevitably do well wherever she goes ?
Possibly, but don't you want to maximise the chances?
Will she be a bit different from the other girls ?
There'll probably be a mix of rich ones, other ones on scholarships, some on bursaries, others from 'normal' families where the parents are working hard and scrimping to pay the fees cos they see it as important. It won't be the cast of St Trinians vs your little orphan Annie daughter.
IHN, good points.
Actually, a lad I know through Scouts went to the top state school in the county, which is in a very affluent area. As an average student from an averagely well off family, he hates the cliques, bullying and entitlement the well off kids dished out. Though apparently the drugs available at parties were more varied and better quality.
Both factors at a nearby private school as well, so I've heard
If they are bright, they’ll do well anywhere.
Not necessarily. I can attest first-hand to the importance of good teachers. I did (amongst others) Physics at A'level and I went from a consistent A/B grade student in the first year to coming out with a D at the end of the second because they changed teachers after the first year.
And really, I guess that's where I'd be focusing. Rather than worrying about public vs private or what an 11-year old "wants," look at average grades from last year in the subjects she's interested in maybe?
Anyone regretted private education ?
Yes. I got dragged kicking and screaming out of my happy existence in the local primary and sent to a shithole called Hutchie (cue abuse from any weegies in the house)
I hated it. I was miserable. I went from toppish of the class to bottom. I loathed the self important ****s at the school and was loathed by many of the local kids.
Awful awful place.
It instilled into me my strong sense of loathing and self hatred.
Don't do it.
Has she spoken to her current friends about this? They may think she's an absolute idiot for not taking the opportunity. (if they don't, best not to dwell on it)
On the positive side, this thread prompted me to listen to Pulp - Different Class.
Maybe that's the solution, go to posh school, listen to different class, all bass covered including not having to have the awkward conversation about the birds and the bees.
I went to a public school in the Direct Grant days: It certainly wasn't elitist socially although it probably was academically. It has a reputation for creating smart-arses.
It's a tricky one. I absolutely hated it for the first two years or so. Part of that was finding myself well in the middle academically after having been top of the class. In fact I hated it so much my parents seriously considered pulling me out of it. In retrospect I'm glad they didn't because there is no doubt that benefitted me in the long run.
I'd suggest that there are an awful lot of variables in this, as a lot depends on the particular school, her personality and how she reacts to the challenges, but the one thing I'd echo is don't just take the decision on the basis that she wants to stay with her mates. She'll have a lifetime to make new friends.
is my chippy working class bias getting the better of me?
Maybe, I am the same, I'd ban private schools if someone was stupid enough to put me in charge, but I'd probably send my son to one if I could.
My Step Daughter got a scholarship to a brilliant Private School. The education she received was first class and she was pushed to achieve all she was capable of. Was the absolute making of her. I know for a fact that if she had gone to the local comp, she would not have the job or degree she has now.
I’d be pushing for the very best for my daughter, especially as she is obviously a clever girl. Hopefully the private school will put her in an environment which will encourage and push for better results.
This.
From experience private school can lead to a degree of isolation from neighbourhood friends. Means longer journeys to see school friends on a weekend etc
Rubbish. If current firends are local then they can still play together. If they don't want to play with the 'posh' kid then you've gotta question how good a friend they are anyway. Al the kids in our street play together and there is a large number of diffrent shcools they all go to.
Unless you're at Eton, then a lot of the parents are going to be the same - hardworking, probably not buying the new car so they can get a good education for their offspring etc. etc. - school trips aren't going to be likely to be anymore expensive than state trips out. You arent obliged to have a chalet in the South of France or go skiing every half term.
This is really your choice not your daughters. She probably didn't want any of the injections she has had, or going ot bed early that night, or wearing the sensible shoes you got her (I know these are a factor down from your current situation...) but its almost certainly going to be better for her.
Easy to go back to the state school if things don't work out, probably once in lifetime chance the other way.
I come into contact with many people who send their children to private school and most of them think its a good thing ( perhaps they would after they spenting that sort of money). Although they generally think that state schools are ok. I think it depends massively on where you live and the quality of the state school your daughter would go to. I went to a state grammar school and when I was younger thought it was rubbish but as I grow older I recognize the good things about it. My children went to the local comp. and neither they nor I think much of it. Although I am happy with my life I now know I could have done better ( how do you define better) My children have both done well in very different ways. My conclusion is that a parents influence and advise given to their children is the most important thing. Quite some responsibility!
Scholarship would have taken quite an effort, as Johndoe said you can always go from this to state if things really do not work out. However going the other way is never going to happen.
She should try it IMO, I suspect it’s just nerves and Monday is the day state schools get their lists. So stressful for all parents.
State schools have to work with a WIDE range of issues. Too wide on a daily basis, correction hourly basis.
It all depends on the schools and the chikd, nephew got a scholarship to private school because he was very bright and local state school would have been a disaster for him. On the flip side my eldest went to a top state grammar (very similar to private school ethos) and despite being bright he just didn't fit in, so we shifted him after a couple of years.
If they are bright, they’ll do well anywhere.
Not necessarily true if the child doesn't have a drive to do well, our youngest tripped up in the 12+ and ended up in the local secondary school - the bar was set way lower than the next school up & consequently he didn't get the A grades he needed to get to the uni he is now finally at.
The advice on getting your daughter to try the private school for a year gets 👍 from me.
In contrast to those who were allowed to choose and regretted it. I was allowed to choose between the local comp and the grammar in the neighbouring county and chose the comp. I've never regretted it.
I’d ban private schools if someone was stupid enough to put me in charge, but I’d probably send my son to one if I could.
You are Diane Abbott AICM£5
The important thing you haven’t covered- is it a day scholarship or boarding? If the latter I’d send my kids off no hesitation!!
I went to public school on a similar scholarship. It took me about 5 years of living in a working-class city at uni, working crappy jobs with normal working-class folks to undo my extreme class indoctrination. The distain for normal people that my school culture sewed was ridiculous. My sister went to a different public school although she didn't board and the bullying she received has completely crippled her confidence. We both came from a wee, friendly school and the change was so much. Even though my sister is doing great, PhD etc, she is still really affected by that time.
I loath that the school I came from unlocks doors.
This is really your choice not your daughters
NOT THIS AT ALL! One of the greatest things my mum and dad ever did for me was to let me make my own choice of secondary school. In the north east we had three good private schools and next to my house in Sunderland two mediocre comps.
Mum & dad let me visit all of them, make my own mind up about which ones to shortlist and ultimately apply for. I sat 11+ for the three private schools, including interviews at two of them. I got a scholarship for Kings and offers at Dame Allans or RGS Newcastle. It was my decision entirely to go for RGS - I knew it was the place where I’d feel most at home and they were willing to sacrifice & stump up the cash. I’d have felt very resentful of been bunged in a school not of my choosing. I’m extremely grateful for them delegating that choice to me.
Having taught in both and seen how much is expected of the pupils and how that makes them work. I'd send mind private.
There is an expectation of good work and the "zone of proximal development" is obvious when you watch classes day to day.
Bar the expectations and the better grades the independent kids were just that, more independent more outgoing (precocious if you want), but they had a better view on what was out there. A lot of state kids(remember you're not average) seem stuck with job aspirations based around what they see/ know.
Daughter should be involved but ultimately you're the adult and you want what is best for her.
I asked my lad, given how well he'd done at a state school, whether he'd have gone private if he'd had a choice - he reckons he would, but suggested the thing to try and check is how well the high flyers at the state school get on. If it has 3-4 students getting straight A*s at GCSE (or whatever they are now), then a bright kid will do fine there academically.
Point of order. If there is a choice of grammar school or other school the other school is NOT a comprehensive. A comprehensive takes ALL pupils in the catchment area
I am in the same position as MOlgrips and Scotroutes. I had the chance to go to the local fee paying school but preferred the local comprehensive - partly because it had much better facilities and partly 'cos I already knew some kids who went to feepaying schools and thought their attitudes stunk. Bear in mind thats a long time ago now
If you daughter is bright then really it will make no difference to her long term academically. Thats the view of education experts I know. Education is about a lot more than simple exam results anyway.
There is also the issue of being " the scholarship kid" which again depending on how your daughter is could be irrelevant or it could be emotionally crippling being the "outsider"
the onsite facilities are utterly astounding with almost continuous investment. There are: music studios; an auditorium; a concert hall & theatre; fully equipped gyms; a swimming pool; a biology block; a physics block; a chemistry block; a design technology block; maths labs; numerous computer labs; language labs; a full 400m running track; a rifle range; several off-site sports fields; a rowing boat house….
My state school had all this bar the rifle range and exclusive use of rowing facilities. Much better facilities than the local feepaying school
What computers did you have in your computer lab
There is also the issue of being ” the scholarship kid” which again depending on how your daughter is could be irrelevant or it could be emotionally crippling being the “outsider”
Or it could be positive, as it was at my private school. Unless we're talking about Eton or Harrow I doubt it'll make any difference.
Personally I'd give it a go for a year, worst case she can always return to the state school.
My state school had all this bar the rifle range and exclusive use of rowing facilities. Much better facilities than the local feepaying school
Bet it doesnt have them now!!
Yup - still does AA.
NOT THIS AT ALL! One of the greatest things my mum and dad ever did for me was to let me make my own choice of secondary school. In the north east we had three good private schools and next to my house in Sunderland two mediocre comps.
Mum & dad let me visit all of them, make my own mind up about which ones to shortlist and ultimately apply for. I sat 11+ for the three private schools, including interviews at two of them. I got a scholarship for Kings and offers at Dame Allans or RGS Newcastle. It was my decision entirely to go for RGS – I knew it was the place where I’d feel most at home and they were willing to sacrifice & stump up the cash. I’d have felt very resentful of been bunged in a school not of my choosing. I’m extremely grateful for them delegating that choice to me.
I probably went to one of the mediocre comps you mentioned, espcially if you were north of the Wear!
We had two 8086 based PCs, which mainly got used to play elite, a few VAX workstations running AutoCAD, some CBM PETs, then we had a fleet of BBC As & Bs in one lab and some 386 PCs in another. In the CDT cad lab we had RM 386s again running AutoCAD. Later on we got some Archimedes which were frikkin awesome.
A third local comp had most of those facilities too. Except the community centre in Pripyat would’ve given Thornhills buildings a good run for its money in the disrepair stakes.
I probably shouldn't join in as I'm not a parent and didn't go to a private school but, just a word about Kings in Macc. I play in a variety of classical ensembles and we use the facilities of Kings. There are all ages involved and a lot of Kings parents and children. They strike me as a nice bunch, generally pretty ordinary, but all seemingly happy and intelligent (well the kids).