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Missed computers mefty! given it was the 70s we had to go to Glasgow uni for computer science! We still did it tho in school time and it was available on the curriculum even if no relation to computing now
Don't get hung up by who you think goes to a public school. The one I taught at (best day school in Edinburgh). Had plumbers and joiners farmers and taxi drivers(there's an embarrassing tale) as well as judges and mi5 spooks as parents. A better social mix than most state schools.
I failed the entry exams to our citys private school (3 times thank goodness), at which my sister was a pupil at the girls school.
I happily remained at free school.
Unlike my expensively educated sister, I can appreciate that other people are allowed an opinion and I can see things from both sides and don't argue a point to death to the point where it's just f'ing ignorant.
She's a better and more successful professional, but, I'm infinitely happier with my version of life. I believe that's almost entirely the schooling difference.
I got dragged kicking and screaming out of my happy existence in the local primary and sent to a shithole called Hutchie (cue abuse from any weegies in the house)
On the other hand, my parents moved me from the local secondary to Glasgow Academy for S2, because I was essentially pissing about. I was pushed quite a lot harder, and to be honest I wouldn’t be where I am now without it. My wife was also state primary/private secondary and neither of us are exactly from from villa-in-Tuscany backgrounds.
My brother, on the other hand, would’ve been better staying at the state secondary with his mates, as would her sister.
Yup – still does AA.
Which school?
Didn't spot the answer so apols if already done; 85% funded, how much is that 15% compared to home tuition fees for a boost with the important stuff (maths etc) . Is the local comp really shit or just the normal?
AA - Hillpark in Glasgow
I went to private for last year of gcse and a levels as in a military family and getting a new posting every year. I was on a bursary and scholarship, so actually cheaper to have me a full boarder than at home.
I was the poor kid and was made to feel like it. Only kid without a car, couldn’t go on the ski trip etc... joining late meant most were in big cliques would known each other since prep. I think it’s given me a bit of a chip on my shoulder about those who are hard working and bright vs those who are thick, entitled and full of opinion.
However, it definitely ensured I did well in my exams, as I felt compelled to prove I was the brightest. Set me up for uni, and despite not working in my field of study got me on a grad scheme which has set me up in life relatively well.
On balance, if I could afford the £15k or so for private pa per boy I’d do it, but on,y if they started early.
In addition to standard teaching rooms, Hillpark has excellent specialist accommodation for Health and
Food Technology, Design and Technology, Gymnasia, Games Hall, Swimming Pool and a Fitness Suite
plus a newly developed expressive arts area. The outdoor facilities include a new full size 4G Astro grass
pitch; this includes a full size football pitch which has three seven a side pitches on it. Around this
fantastic facility we have red blaze which is used as a 400m running track during athletics season.
There is an accessibility strategy in place with accessibility classrooms on the ground floor and 1st floor
Doesnt mention a theatre or auditorium or separate science blocks for chem, physics and bio or concert hall...
They struggle with having a functioning website too!!
https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=32439&p=0
My niece goes to a private school on a scholarship and loves it. Her Mum is a single parent and scrapes the money together. She appears to get on fine with the kids who have loads of money.
My son goes to a private school, and he loves it, and to be honest there are families from all walks of life, some are super wealthy, some are not.
You need to weigh up the two schools that are her options. There are good and bad private schools, just like state schools.
Some private schools are very academically driven and can burn some kids out. You need to look at the pros & cons of the education and avoid thinking that it is all about money (there are dickheads in all parts of society)
Can you pursued her to go for a taster day?
Haven’t read all the opinions but I’ll give you my two cents:
When I was 11 I passed the exam to get into a grammar school that was ~20miles from home. I remember having terrible rows with my parents because I refused to go there - all my friends were going to the local comp. I “won” that argument and went to the local school. I was kinda bad there and almost got into a lot of trouble with the wrong crowd.
Then when I was 13, my family moved and I went to a city with a good grammar schools and a relatively poor comprehensive. I was horrified by the thought of single sex ed at the grammar, and they didn’t even play football - only rugger and cricket! The argument was repeated but my parents put their foot down and I’m so glad they did. After about a week I’d made good friends in the new school and the whole place was nicer with better craic. So I not only enjoyed it but it put me on the right path and set me up well for university.
At 11 and 13 I was short-sighted and pig-headed. I’m glad my parents didn’t listen to me in the end!
If your local state school is good, as she's bright and capable, there'll be little difference in grades.
Going private may shift her expectations of life and herself as well as expose her to different experiences (this could be positive or not). But she might resent being pushed away from her friends.
If the local school is like Sadr City on bonfire night, send her on the scholarship.
Mum & dad let me visit all of them
That's a good point.
The sole variable in the argument here is "we've got an offer and she wants to stay with her friends instead." If the two of you visit both schools on open days, talk to teachers and pupils, would that not give you both an idea if which is "better" regardless of whether it's public / private etc?
TJ - she won't be going to school in Glasgow so your (and quite a few others wheeling through the same old arguments) point is moot. It's a choice between the two schools, one of which, she will go to. Not those and St Barnabus of the Briar c.1974-79.
Anyone regretted private education ?
My daughter was offered 95% fees paid for a private school in the Southwest. Sort of an all-girls Hogwarts. I was so glad she and we decided she would not go.
the stabiliser - all I was doing in that post was simply challenging the idea that private schools have the best facilities. Its not always true.
I did make the point i an earlier post that for the kid in question there are both potential advantages and disadvantages whichever decision is taken and which are more prevalent depends on the quality of both the schools in question and the attitude and aptitude of the kid.
Fee paying schools are not naturally better and education is about an awful lot more than simply exam results. The defensiveness of those who went to fee paying schools is somewhat telling
I went to state and private schools. My kids have been to both state and private schools.
We had one horrendous experience with an overly pushy private school, that meant we pulled our daughter out. We also weren't that impressed with the last state school she went to, but didn't pull her out of it as such (we moved overseas).
Don't worry about posh kids, society or segregation. There have been just as many parents/kids that I'd avoid at state schools as I avoid at private schools. Knobbers exist at both ends of the wealth spectrum. I suspect once you start to experience the parents and kids that are in the private school system you'll find lots of traits and characteristics that are familiar - try keep an open mind about this.
On the whole I feel private schools have been a better experience than state schools for both me and my children - but there are always exceptions to the rule. Smaller class sizes, teachers that are motivated and most importantly the kids motivate each other to achieve their best. As a bright kid myself I was continually bullied and brought down for being smart at my state school. Private schools the kids are the opposite.
You are doing the right thing, thinking hard before turning down this opportunity.
If she's bright enough to get a scholarship that large then she'll succeed at the state school no problem.
Going to where she will be happiest is most important.
Also, play the long game, if she gets to the stage where she has a realistic option of getting into Cambridge or Oxford, a girl coming from a state school has it stacked in her favour.
My daughter got a scholarship to a private school and took it. Started OK, but eventually got to hate the place. Too much focus on being 'part of school', becoming the sort of person they wanted them to be, unwritten mandatory participation in a sports teams even if you were hardly the least bit talented etc etc. She swapped to local state school for A Levels and instantly became happier. She had no trouble making it to Cambridge, now doing a PhD there also.
The one thing that she took from the private school was the work ethic. She learned that hard work does pay off.
Too much focus on being ‘part of school’, becoming the sort of person they wanted them to be, unwritten mandatory participation in a sports teams even if you were hardly the least bit talented etc etc.
That’s really depends on the school. Yes there were a number of very good sports teams at my school (and a number of prize ass hats associated with them) but there was little pressure to fully participate. In fact we were so fed up of sports on Wednesday afternoon that we lobbied the voluntary service teacher and got a group of us excused “Games” to do VS instead. So I spent my Wednesday afternoons at a local railway museum learning to shunt, drive an engine, needle gun shit off carriage frames and weld.
Late to the thread but I had an 80% scholarship to private school (single parent social worker Mum). The thought that I might have missed out on years of hugely varied learning and sports opportunities gives me the shivers.
If I’d been asked at that age what I wanted I’d have gone with my mates to the local school. I would have been wrong.
I went to a private school (boarding - dad in the forces so they didn't need to cough up much). I don't regret it at all and I see some people's impression of what all private schools are like are based on either fictional or far-end-of-the-spectrum examples on TV! There were certainly some shit times and shit aspects of it but that's the same anywhere - just different things are shit. There were people from a wide range of backgrounds, OK admittedly the parents were all probably middle class or above but not everyone that's middle class is a card carrying Tory and Daily Mail reader, most are just normal people. In terms of education, the facilities were great and I think on the whole the teachers got the best out of me (I didn't particularly struggle but was lazy and not overly interested in most of the subjects).
That said there are a lot of excellent state schools out there (and private schools that are poorly run) so the decision shouldn't be private vs state it should be the specific private option vs the specific state option your daughter has. Just don't dismiss the private option thinking she'll come out the other end a thoughtless snob who wants to go into PR - that's just as much a stupid a stereotype as someone coming out of state education with getting the most out of the benefits system being their only goal in life.
tjagain
The defensiveness of those who went to fee paying schools is somewhat telling
Says the bloke whose opening gambit is always the sledgehammer statement that private school will damage your kids and that hoards of his friends are educational experts who will back this up.
Defensiveness or just pointing out that it is possible to have a good time in private school?
For the OP, definitely give it a year. Imagine the "what might have been" if your daughter doesn't flourish in state school. Even if it isn't because of the school, the thought might be nagging.
I'd say that almost everyone on this thread reckons that whatever they did is the best. None of us can know for sure how life might have turned out for ourselves, or our kids, if we'd chosen the other option.
As someone who didn't (and doesn't) make friends easily it was important to my 11 year old self that I was socialising with kids local to me and that really meant the local, state school. Of course, we didn't have the same mobility then either. Maybe it's a bit different now.
This thread suggests that is a complicated issue, with no simple answer, which mirrors my experience. Two of my children passed the 11+ and went to the grammar schools. The younger one didn't. We agonised over what to do and in the end sent her to the local private school. 12 years on and she has an engineering degree and has just taken her first command as an officer in the REME. Her primary school friends are mostly jobless, many already have children. I don't want to get into any arguments about the merits of these massively different life choices, but she seems happy with where she is.
But... She feels a level of guilt about having cost us a lot of money (this one won't apply to the OP), and despite the fact that I was able to pay the fees out of the current account without any borrowing she was still definitely at the poorer end of the spectrum. Some of the rich kids weren't very nice about it. But as someone has already pointed out, poor kids can be pretty unpleasant too.
It isn't just about the quality of the education, it is also about the level of understanding about what is possible. One of the things that contributes massively to the lack of social mobility in the UK is the belief that 'it's not for the likes of us'. A self imposed ceiling. For the private school pupils what in the worst case shows up as entitlement is in the best case simply a refusal to limit yourself, a willingness to give things a go. In terms of life outcomes, that is worth a lot.
Is the Private School "better as a school" than the Comp? If so send her there and if it doesn't work out move her to the comp.
If you don't know which school is "better as a school" then find out. Visit and ask around.
Don't factor friends in at this point, her friendship group will be changing when she moves school anyway. Few people maintain their primary school circle of friends at secondary school.
If she’s bright enough to get a scholarship that large then she’ll succeed at the state school no problem.
of course she will - although the definition of success might be subtly different.
Going to where she will be happiest is most important.
i'd definitely agree with that and just say that the reason this decision is not quite as black and white as people are making out - is that what makes 12-18 yr old girls "happy" is a mystical world that includes so many inputs and changes constantly! I would say its just as likely she will go to a private school, feel like "the poor kid" (or worry about asking you to pay for the ski trip, new hockey kit, a violin, and having enough cash/drink/drugs to go keep up with the socialites) that she will be unhappy (and possibly say its because she misses her mates) as it is she goes to the state school, and feels its better to coast than excel because those who stand out get bullied, and actually get minimal encouragement from staff.
I do see a girl in my street leave for private school before 0730 and not return until after 1830; and I know her school friends are scattered over a 40 mile radius - which creates more pressure on parents. If she didn't want to be there that would be an excuse to resent the decision.
Also, play the long game, if she gets to the stage where she has a realistic option of getting into Cambridge or Oxford, a girl coming from a state school has it stacked in her favour.
mmm... the "stacked in your favour" is a bit of an interesting argument; any "rebalance" is simply to address it being stacked against you before. Still far more private school kids get in that state school kids.
My daughter got a scholarship to a private school ... She swapped to local state school for A Levels and instantly became happier..
And for balance, lots of kids go to state school never quite feel "at home" and suddenly flourish at A level college.
From experience private school can lead to a degree of isolation from neighbourhood friends. Means longer journeys to see school friends on a weekend etc
Rubbish. If current firends are local then they can still play together. If they....
I'm sorry. That's just bollocks. It's quite simple, if the catchment is huge then it will be more difficult to see friends. It's simple
“Stacked in her favour” may not have really caught the meaning. Any Kid who applies, and is good enough will get an offer. When it come down to choosing between two very equal candidates, then the choice will go to the one who rebalances the mix of students to reflect society at large.
I generalise, of course, as some colleges are better than others at this, and some are still very stuck in their ways.
We realised eventually that a happy kid is one of the best things a parent can hope for.
Yes, private schools do tend to have great facilities, excellent student/teacher ratios, often get the better teachers. However, kids don’t often see this as a reason to enjoy school.
The family move to Wirral at the end of my first year of secondary education did me the world of good, scraping through the 12+ to get into the grammar school, which pushed me a lot harder and got me into uni. Things went wrong after that, but I very much doubt I'd have got anything like the GCSE and A Level grades I ended up with, if I had remained in the Dolgellau comprehensive.
Point of order. If there is a choice of grammar school or other school the other school is NOT a comprehensive. A comprehensive takes ALL pupils in the catchment area
Where i grew up there was a choice between comprehensive and grammar because we were on the border of two counties with different systems. One county had only comprehensive schools, the neighbouring county had grammar schools and secondary moderns.
Point of order. If there is a choice of grammar school or other school the other school is NOT a comprehensive. A comprehensive takes ALL pupils in the catchment area
Nope, a comprehensive *will* take ALL pupils in the catchment area if required. The fact that some people in the catchment area don't go there doesn't stop it being a comprehensive. Some kids will be home schooled some kids will go to private schools some kids will go to grammar schools some kids will go to comps outside the catchment area. The comp is still a comp in spite of the fact there are many alternatives.
All independent schools differ in facilities, culture etc.
Having put older child through the imploding state system in Scotland and now in a position to put younger child through the independent school system, I would say you would be insane not to snap up the chance of an independent school place.
The difference in resources, both physical and in terms of teaching assistance/class size is unbelievable. 12 in a class, learning support for every child, vast amount of extra-curricula activities. YMMV depending on the quality of your local schools. Couldn't contemplate moving back to the state system after the experience in the independent system of the last few years.
Something else to be considered, one decision can be reversed, the other can't. If I was in your shoes I would take the scholarship, you can always change back after the first year. It don't imagine you could do it in the other direction.
the point above about being forced to do 'extra-circular' stuff, again whilst i didn't like it, it made me do stuff that I would have not chosen to do as someone who prefers solo stuff like mtb , and i think overall I end up more rounded.
rugby team, scorer for cricket team (!), role in school play, assembly monitor, prefect, chap who had to discpline naughty boards (get up at 6am and run round the pitches...) and some other stuff I've probably forgotten
chap who had to discpline naughty boards
I've become aroused.
....but seriously this:
one decision can be reversed, the other can’t.
“Stacked in her favour” may not have really caught the meaning. Any Kid who applies, and is good enough will get an offer. When it come down to choosing between two very equal candidates, then the choice will go to the one who rebalances the mix of students to reflect society at large.
I generalise, of course, as some colleges are better than others at this, and some are still very stuck in their ways.
From 2008, the application process was as follows:
1) UCAS application - Exam grades, a personal statement (written by you) and a reference letter usually written by the school.
Before A* grade got added, everyone at oxbridge, (plus all the rest - Durham, Imperial, Bristol etc) has 3 A grade A levels, minimum.
The written parts - yes, a good state school/6th form would put absolutely you equal to the private schools. A dump that cares more about getting people over the C/D border than their first Oxbridge applicant in a decade, not so much.
2) Interview.
For me, this had 3 parts.
a) written test, in theory doable with purely knowledge of A level maths and physics. Questions required more steps and logical reasoning than A level. [advantage to smaller classes, teachers pushing you beyond just passing the exam, culture of wanting to succeed]
b) subject interview. Verbal test. Questions harder than the written test, with the idea that the interviewer guides you through it if and when you get stuck, sees how you respond to problems you cannot immediately do. [advantage to those who have been pushed academically, and those not scared of something they cant automatically do]
c) character interview. 3 candidates to one interviewer, discussing your social life, both currently and what you thing university will be like. [advantage to extroverts, and those who have university explained to them beforehand.] One guy in with me gave one word answers to direct questions to him, otherwise remained silent for the whole half hour.
(Just to be clear, my state 6th form prepared me adequately - as I got in - but not the case for everyone)
Nothing wrong with showing up in a tracksuit and dropping all your aitches. OK there may be biases from people, but you've had a further 3 independent assessments beyond what most every other university tries to distinguish you, one of which is anonymous.
Main takeaway, its not like another 3 or 4 years of sixth form, but with harder questions; nor is it a reward for the best A level grades. They aim to find the people who they think will do best there.
I’ve become aroused
No soggy biscuits were involved.
, I would say you would be insane not to snap up the chance of an independent school place
A well off, privately educated friend of mine choose not to put his kids into private education because he felt that the best option for them was the local (Scottish) state school. One of the things that influenced him was the commercial business objectives of private education that have been mentioned previously. He felt that private schools tend to encourage activities that tick the right boxes for their corporate image, rather than what individual kids might be most interested in, and benefit most from.
That commercial ethos has other impacts. How do you think private schools maintain those enviably small classes of kids that are all eager to learn? If you are a disruptive influence, you'll be asked to go elsewhere, and who has to pick up those rejected kids...?
That commercial ethos has other impacts. How do you think private schools maintain those enviably small classes of kids that are all eager to learn? If you are a disruptive influence, you’ll be asked to go elsewhere, and who has to pick up those rejected kids…?
That works both ways. The kids that are on their 3rd or 4th state school often end up in the private sector after their last exclusion.
I'm fantastically happy to have my child in an "enviably small class of kids that are all eager to learn".
When i was younger i had a similar opportunity. I pleaded that i should go to a "normal" school. With the benefit of hindsight i would suggest you convince your daughter to take this opportunity.
I’m fantastically happy to have my child in an “enviably small class of kids that are all eager to learn”.
Of course. I'm pointing out that some people with experience of both systems make a valid decision that private education is not the best option for their kids.
That works both ways. The kids that are on their 3rd or 4th state school often end up in the private sector after their last exclusion.
As a commercial business, why would a private school choose to accept a child in that position?
As a commercial business, why would a private school choose to accept a child in that position?
Because they have spaces and welcome the money? My wife's younger brother ended up in a private school for this reason - it helped straighten him out but he isn't exactly a high-flyer. His older brother went through state school and is now a very senior team member working on the James Webb telescope project in LA.
As a commercial business, why would a private school choose to accept a child in that position?
I don't know. If you want me to guess: 1) Cash. Our two nearest private schools are struggling - both have made redundancies in 2019, a third went under two years ago. 2) They may have a policy of giving places to under-privalaged kids, maybe they take on a few hard nuts in a similar spirit. 3) There are private schools for SEN kids, maybe they end up there. 4) Local authorities will be very reliable payers.
Private schools will cheerfully take kids excluded from other private schools, if they'll do that it's hard to see why they wouldn't take them from state schools.
...anyway I'll ask later - SWMBO was the one doing the excluding in the two cases I'm thinking of so detail is available.
Because they have spaces and welcome the money? My wife’s younger brother ended up in a private school for this reason – it helped straighten him out but he isn’t exactly a high-flyer. His older brother went through state school and is now a very senior team member working on the James Webb telescope project in LA.
It's a problem johndoh - the cohort of mediocrity you get in private schools is substantial both sides of the desk (because where do weak teachers go who can't hack it in the state system?).
Of course there are weaker students everywhere, but parents paying for private schools should manage their expectations here. Almost all private schools will have a healthy cabbage patch at the back of the class.