[Closed] Clever logo... (well I thought so anyway)

Jack, on Kelloggs, didn't they decide a while ago that they didn't need to advertise Cornflakes, because it was so widely known and the product was good enough to sell on it's own?

And then found sales plummeting because that was absolutely, 100% wrong?

DrJ - yuo are a fine one to talk - you have consistently distorted anything I post, refused to listen and been consistently offensive. You refuse to answer, you distort and traduce You accuse me of lying when its your inability to comprehend that there are other viewpoints that is at fault.

Molgrips

You and others keep claiming there is independent proof this works.

If you claim something then you should be able to defend it

You should be able to get abstracts for free from the standard journals. Or give me the titles and I'll get them using my Athens password

If you claim something then you should be able to defend it

THIS IS NOT A **** COURT OF LAW!

Most normal people say 'oh yeah I read this and that' and the other person goes 'oh yeah that's interesting' or 'well I'm sceptical'.

Your incessant demands for peer reviewed papers are just puerile and frigging annoying.

ALL I want is for you to say 'Well that seems far-fetched to me, but I don't know for sure'. That's all - you can make all this go away...

Molgrips - Graham had the intellectual honesty to accept that he did not see it.
So did others. its not just me.

do you see a blue triangle on top of a letter N as a north arrow? would you have known that unless you knew garmin was to do with navigation?

MF uses this as an example of a good logo with some good symbology.

No I didn't - I just said that I thought it was clever and obvious once spotted.

I thought it was actually quite clever and glaringly obvious once spotted...

ONCE SPOTTED.
[b]
O
N
C
E

S
P
O
T
T
E
D[/b]

Graham has to admit that he did not see this as a north arrow.

I did yes. Contrary to your very well-held belief, it is quite possible for someone to concede a point in a debate without that destroying their entire argument.

You really should try it some time.

It really doesn't matter whether I saw it straight away or had it pointed out. That kind of thing is just a little design nod. A little "ah-ha" moment like the FedEx "arrow" or the Amazon "A-to-Z/smile".

Now that I've had it pointed out (or if I'd noticed it on my own) I have one more little hook about that brand stuck in my mind.

DrJ - yuo are a fine one to talk - you have consistently distorted anything I post, refused to listen and been consistently offensive. You refuse to answer, you distort and traduce You accuse me of lying when its your inability to comprehend that there are other viewpoints that is at fault.

Intellectual honesty.

You say "Its been proven to work". Its reasonable to expect someone to ask for the proof.

Ok, let's have a nice talk about the Garmin logo.

I did not notice it as a north arrow. However now it's been pointed out to me I think it's cool.

That is a cool thought stuck in my brain next to all the other cool thoughts about Garmin, and the more cool thoughts I have about them the more likely I am to recommend them to someone else. When I next buy a GPS I will probably get Garmin because of all the cool thoughts about them in my brain.

That's how it works for people typically.

Its reasonable to expect someone to ask for the proof

FFS. Why are you asking me? Am I an ad exec? No. All I am doing is reporting a general impression from having read about it previously AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS TO BECAUSE YOU KNOW I DO NOT WORK IN THE BUSINESS.

TJ: can we have some peer-reviewed papers that say this stuff [i]doesn't[/i] work then please?

🙄

You guys need a little intellectual honesty. The example of the blue triangle shows how little all this fancy graphics stuff matters. Open your eyes. Its a classic example.

You guys need a little intellectual honesty. The example of the blue triangle shows how little all this fancy graphics stuff matters. Open your eyes. Its a classic example

I explained in detail to you what the blue triangle meant to me. Can I be any more honest than that?

You guys need a little intellectual honesty.

Wow. That's up there with accusing me of a lack of understanding.

And you didn't even have the decency to respond after I was decent enough to overlook your insults.

GrahamS - Member

TJ: can we have some peer-reviewed papers that say this stuff doesn't work then please?

I haven't claimed its been proven not to work. I have claimed its not as effective or important as you believe in my opinion.

crikey was right -

Ned - sorry - did I miss something- I will apologise for that.

I was foolish to get sucked back into this. I will stop.

You accuse me of lying when its your inability to comprehend that there are other viewpoints that is at fault

How can you have the gall to accuse us of not seeing other viewpoints when this entire argument is about YOU not seeing anyone else's viewpoints?

I have claimed its not as effective or important as you believe in my opinion

Well we never gave figures, so how can you compare anything?

And that's the first time you've used 'in my opinion' (as far as I can remember) so I guess that counts as a victory.

How can you have the gall to accuse us of not seeing other viewpoints when this entire argument is about YOU not seeing anyone else's viewpoints?

No its not - I see your viewpoint, I understand it, I disagree with it and its basic premises.

apologies (to myself mainly) for coming back into this thread.
not sure if the following has been dealt with on recent pages but I'd like to ask TJ:

1- in relation to

in the context of people claiming the font gave meaning such as businesslike or similar that was universal and inherent.

2- TJ, are you in complete control of your subconscious thoughts?

TJ is opening up quite a significant lead now.. he's gonna romp home with this if you guys aren't careful

Is this the longest thread ever?

No its not - I see your viewpoint, I understand it, I disagree with it and its basic premises.

You don't actually seem to understand it though.

I was foolish to get sucked back into this. I will stop

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You guys need a little intellectual honesty. The example of the blue triangle shows how little all this fancy graphics stuff matters. Open your eyes. Its a classic example.

Yet again TJ, you are confusing a logo with brand. I simply liked the subtle arrow (yes it is subtle, people don't always see it - I have seen the logo many times and only just spotted it and that was the thrust of my original post).

So, as a brand the Garmin 'North Pointer' isn't the best example of brand communication but I never said it was. I just liked the subtle execution of the [b]*LOGO*[/b].

Have you got that much yet?

can you show where this has actually been claimed?

2- TJ, are you in complete control of your subconscious thoughts?

I have no idea what you mean by subconcious. Not a term I believe to be useful.

got to be up there m-c. Shame Elfin's banned, no celebration for the 1500!

I have claimed its not as effective or important as you believe in my opinion.

Ah right.

[u]Your opinion[/u] is its not as effective or important as I believe.

I can't argue with that. That IS definitely your opinion.

It's a factually incorrect opinion. But it is definitely your opinion, which you have repeatedly expressed. I have no way to argue that it is not your opinion and nor would I seek to do so.

Flounce on the cards now? 😛

You know bugger all about this stuff, it's time you shut up and started learning. Your world view is simply your own, you can't tell us we're wrong because our view is different.

2- TJ, are you in complete control of your subconscious thoughts?

I have no idea what you mean by subconcious. Not a term I believe to be useful.

OK, have you ever had a dream? ever remember any thoughts in that dream that you wouldn't necessarily consider happenning in real waking life?

EDIT
3 Are you Terminator?

It's a factually incorrect opinion

in [i]your[/i] opinion

The example of the blue triangle shows how little all this fancy graphics stuff matters. Open your eyes. Its a classic example

You can't tell me what the blue triangle means in my own brain.

And why did you put 'open your eyes'? You are implying that my eyes are closed, or that I am being ignorant. This is an insult, isn't it? So why's it there?

of course not it is your job to do that to him for having a different view to you isnt it Mr kettle?

We are claiming different things. He's saying that branding and advertising hardly works on anyone, which is clearly bobbins, just look at the economy. I've been saying he's not understanding what we've been trying to say. Which is true, judging by reading what he comes back with.

Actually - what I really want is for him to say 'well I've learned something'.

I very rarely dream? However what is that supposed to show?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconscious

The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as a definition-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings.

It's a factually incorrect opinion

in your opinion

I'm guessing that GrahamS has a better idea of what he believes than does TJ.

in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings

Is this an academic or scientific setting?

He's saying that branding and advertising hardly works on anyone, which is clearly bobbins, just look at the economy. I've been saying he's not understanding what we've been trying to say. Which is true, judging by reading what he comes back with.

Itellectual honesty.

I have been saying its much less effective than you believe

I absolutely understand what yo have been saying, i simply do not accept it as correct.

Right - I have important stuff to do. See you later

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i heard he insulted yo momma as well

TJ is opening up quite a significant lead now

Really? From where I'm sat all he's doing is picking off the low-hanging fruit. It all reached new lows when the dreaded word "semantics" was used back on page 476. From there on in there was never going to be a "victor" in this...

...which on the positive side means it may well get to 1,000 posts. Keep it up. I'll check in later 🙂

TandemJeremy - Member

Indeed more than that - you only know its a north arrow if you know its a garmin and you are looking for significance.
So this very clever bit of graphics / logo work actually has been shown to add nothing to the basic word. The only people who know what it is are those who already know what a garmin is and are the sort of people who look for these things.

disclaimer- Please take these comments as personal opinion rather than :teh fact:

OK, The Garmin thing - there aren't that many manufacturers of hand held GPS are there ?
So I would think their target audience [i]do[/i] know what a GPS is (and does), use maps quite a bit, and are used to associating an upper case 'N' as a symbol for north.
I also find it very hard to imagine anyone who is map'n'compass savvy who would not automatically think 'N = north' irrespective of an arrow of any colour.
So in this case I would imagine the strategy is to reinforce 'the brand' before significant competition enters the market, and I suspect that garmin would like to 'do a hoover' by becoming a generic term for 'outdoors use hand held GPS device'.

TJ
One of the issues here throughout this thread has been poorly defined terms and word that we take to mean different things.

thats why the use of words such as subconcious are not useful. its a word with no definition. everyone thinks they know what it is = no one can define it

I'm guessing that GrahamS has a better idea of what he believes than does TJ.

Exactly. His "opinion" has no basis in fact, since he does not have access to my thoughts to gauge how strong my belief in the effectiveness of this stuff, nor access to advertising research figures to report on the true effectiveness.

TJ is opening up quite a significant lead now.. he's gonna romp home with this if you guys aren't careful

If by that, you mean he's still going to be here when all the sensible people have left having seen him detatch himself from arguments he's losing, then you're probably right.

What amazes me is that people are prepared to carry on arguing about something of relatively little importance for this length of time.

Does anyone really care how much (or little) TJ is affected by marketing/branding/logos. I know I don't care one jot and I'm fairly certain that how my buying habits affected are of no interest to him.

Once again, it's a potentially interesting thread (which is still interesting if you have the time to sift the posts) bogged down in a deathly spiral of incrimination, minutaie, nanopoint scoring and finally exasperated insults.

I think I'll go and herd some cats.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/topics/all-brandmanagement.html
here some actual research from DrJ oddly the first one i started reading [b]why global brands work[/b]
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5800.html - by a professotr had this as point 5

5. Social responsibility. Consumers expect global brands to lead on corporate social responsibility, leveraging their technology to solve the world's problems. Think Nestlé and clean water.

I will read some more as i suspect i will learn far more from there thna another 20 pages of this.

Morning!*

I read a paper, well a couple actually. The best sounding one was unavailable on t'wifes uni access. 🙁

A summary of the more relevant ones;

1) All Dressed up with Something to Say: Effects of Typeface Semantic Associations on Brand Perceptions and Consumer Memory
Author(s): Terry L. Childers and Jeffrey Jass
Source: Journal of Consumer Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 2 (2002), pp. 93-106

Sample size 96 undergraduates.

Research from information design and marketing has demonstrated that individuals are capable of perceiving consistent meaning in typefaces... (Bartram, 1982; Rowe 1982; Tantillo, Lorenzo-Aiss, + Mathisen, 1995; Walker Smith, + Livingston, 1986)

General Discussion and Conclusions
Taken together, the results of the two experiments provide evidence that typefaces convey meanings that have the potential to significantly influence important marketing constructs.

Semantic associations may be activated via one of three paths to meaning, or some combination of these three paths, including (a) through consistent use in a particular situation, (b) through a direct relations with the perceptual qualities generated by the visual patterning of the stimulus, and/or (c) via associations with abstract connotative dimensions

In a marketing context, for example, a typeface that is used consistently to represent a brand name may acquire a number of diverse semantic associations which become centered on the meaning of the brand

2) Quantifying Perceived Differences in Type Styles: An Exploratory Study
Author(s): John Tantillo, Janet Di Lorenzo-Aiss and Richard E. Mathisen
Source: Psychology + Marketing, Vol. 12, No. 5 (1995) pp. 447-457

Sample size - 250. Subjects, undergraduate and graduate students. 56% female, 44% male, average age 24.4 years.

The study found that [subjects] perceived affective differences among the six most frequently used type styles and among the serif and sans serif taxonomy. Thus from the point of view of advertising practitioners, differences in type-style selection are important

Care to produce any counter evidence TandemJeremy 😉

*It's 9am here 😉

What amazes me is that people are prepared to carry on arguing about something of relatively little importance for this length of time

It's not about how affected he is.

1) he used derogatory language for those of us who are affected, me inluded
2) he rubbished my arguments based on misconceptions, which as an arguer is extremely frustrating.
3) he then refused to accept misconceptions by giving reasons based on even more misconceptions, which drove me up the wall.

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And for just for TandemJemery
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