[Closed] Class - what exactly defines the classes?

Upbringing/aspirations/values/inherited wealth for starters?

But how do the define what class you are a member of though?

Traditionally wealth, values aspirations and opportunities

There was an interesting article on this in the Economist a while ago.

Most people in the UK are middle class - work in middle income, middling skill level jobs etc. However, they tend to identify themselves a working class.

Those who identify themselves as middle class are generally more like upper middle & upper class - read any typical Polly Filla article in the Telegraph about the middle classes struggling to pay the school fees [b]and[/b] find the time to shout at the Filipino nanny. 😆

However, people see the aristocracy etc. as the upper class proper, but they're such a small number that they're barely worth including in demographics classifications.

class is very much dpendent upon the angle you are viewing it from
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I was born working class and I will die working class. Weird because I'm pretty well off, believe in the value of paying for my children's education and by almost any standards would be regarded as middle class.

But I aint and wont ever be.

For me it's simple if you work you're working class if you loaf and or ponce about you're one of the others.

We are all middle class these days. Blame Fatcha.

In a word...
.
.
Property

The Upper classes / aristocracy is about the only element that is "easy" to define and draw a boundary around. Inherited wealth, primarily land assets and being able to trace your "pedigree" back to when people started to read and write. All accomplished by some long dead Monarch ceding your predecessor land in return for some service or favour...

The Frost Show sketch (the one above with Cleese and the Ronnies) has it about right 🙂

When I was a kid I was confused cos my Dad went to work every day. Therefore as far as I could see, we were working class!

jools, is a man who claims to be a fish a fish or a man? 😉

So, if I have a degree, have my own house and a car etc... W hat class does that put me in?

Here's the Economist article for anyone who's interested:
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15777629

We are all middle class these days.

Most people in the UK are middle class - work in middle income, middling skill level jobs etc. However, they tend to identify themselves a working class.

[b]NO. NO. NO.[/b]

This is so incorrect it makes me very angry.

I am one of those that could be described as "middle class" - professional job, reasonable income, responsibilities, nice house etc. But to describe me and all those other professional working class as middle class fundamentally misses the point of what middle class is.

If you are middle class you have (paid for) property assets - end of story.

Everything I/we have is dependent on earned income. We have to WORK to keep it all in place - therefore defining "working class". Stop work and the mortgage company asks for the keys back - one of the accute issues of our time.

The truly middle class can work hard to accumulate more wealth, or can kick back and take a lower paid, lower stress job and live in the cottage in the country that the family have owned for generations....

So, if I have a degree, have my own house and a car etc... What class does that put me in?

Middle or upper. The degree gives it away.

And I disagree with rk101 - I see what you're saying, but then what you're actually describing is a more of a feudal system.

Increasingly, the British seem to rely on the concept of class, not as a social identifier, but as a means of snobbery. It may be straightforward BoJo style looking down on the oiks, of Joolsburger's inverse snobbery. But it's all snobbery nonetheless.

US models
Academic Class Models
Dennis Gilbert, 2002 William Thompson & Joseph Hickey, 2005 Leonard Beeghley, 2004
Class Typical characteristics Class Typical characteristics Class Typical characteristics
Capitalist class (1%) Top-level executives, high-rung politicians, heirs. Ivy League education common. Upper class 1% Top-level executives, celebrities, heirs; income of $500,000+ common. Ivy league education common. The super-rich (0.9%) Multi-millionaires whose incomes commonly exceed $350,000; includes celebrities and powerful executives/politicians. Ivy League education common.
The Rich (5%) Households with net worth of $1 million or more; largely in the form of home equity. Generally have college degrees.
Upper middle class[1] (15%) Highly educated (often with graduate degrees), most commonly salaried, professionals and middle management with large work autonomy Upper middle class[1] (15%) Highly educated (often with graduate degrees) professionals & managers with household incomes varying from the high 5-figure range to commonly above $100,000
Middle class (plurality/
majority?; ca. 46%) College educated workers with incomes considerably above-average incomes and compensation; a man making $57,000 and a woman making $40,000 may be typical.
Lower middle class (30%) Semi-professionals and craftsmen with a roughly average standard of living. Most have some college education and are white collar. Lower middle class (32%) Semi-professionals and craftsman with some work autonomy; household incomes commonly range from $35,000 to $75,000. Typically, some college education.
Working class (30%) Clerical and most blue collar workers whose work is highly routinized. Standard of living varies depending on number of income earners, but is commonly just adequate. High school education.
Working class (32%) Clerical, pink and blue collar workers with often low job security; common household incomes range from $16,000 to $30,000. High school education. Working class
(ca. 40% - 45%) Blue collar workers and those whose jobs are highly routinized with low economic security; a man making $40,000 and a woman making $26,000 may be typical. High school education.
Working poor (13%) Service, low-rung clerical and some blue collar workers. High economic insecurity and risk of poverty. Some high school education.
Lower class (ca. 14% - 20%) Those who occupy poorly-paid positions or rely on government transfers. Some high school education.
Underclass (12%) Those with limited or no participation in the labor force. Reliant on government transfers. Some high school education. The poor (ca. 12%) Those living below the poverty line with limited to no participation in the labor force; a household income of $18,000 may be typical. Some high school education.

The truly middle class can work hard to accumulate more wealth, or can kick back and take a lower paid, lower stress job and live in the cottage in the country that the family have owed for generations....

If you substitute "upper" for middle class, you might be onto something.

An easy way to tell for sure if someone's middle class is that they'll be proclaiming for certain that they're 100%, definitely [s]middleclass[/s] (EDIT - oops!) working class while frantically checking the school league tables, local house prices and looking for a cafe that does nice fairtrade coffee nearby 😉

joolsburger - American and therefore totaly based on a monetised grading. Middle class and upper class can (and often are) cash poor, but asset rich

Well, I always considered myself working class

But the other week I was attending a site meeting in one of those small retail parks
I fancied an ice cream so I popped into the adjacent Farmfoods supermarket
That was an eye opener

Language is part of it. It doesn't matter how rich you are, if you use a toilet rather than a loo then you'll never be upper class.

An easy way to tell for sure if someone's middle class is that they'll be proclaiming for certain that they're 100%, definitely middleclass while frantically checking the school league tables, local house prices and looking for a cafe that does nice fairtrade coffee nearby

😆

And they'll be the ones most worried about which band of lower/middle/upper middle class they occupy. Working and upper couldn't give a shit.

That was an eye opener

Ding! To have a comfortable middle class life and sitting around proclaiming "I'm one of the proletariat I am" is just ridiculous. People do shift between classes, but generally retain their values & social links. It'd be hard not to, given that a lot of these are pretty much set in early life.

Ok, what about if I don't have a job, shop at Aldi's, can't afford a holiday, and am dependent on benefits to support my family. What class am I in then?

tron, I agree Upper class could easily be added, but if you go to say pre-war demographics (when it was much clearer), the middle classes were defined by the property ownership - business men, farmers, merchants.

This is the class of the entreprenurial capitalist (ie have some assets and make them work for you) as well as the stay at home maiden aunt who never does a stroke of work, but lives comfortably in a nice property paid for by a previous generation.

Again, if you have to WORK to maintain what you have the you must be working class.

If you can give up work and retain ownership of your key assets (ie house) then you are middle class.

Language is part of it. It doesn't matter how rich you are, if you use a toilet rather than a loo then you'll never be upper class.

I think you mean a lavatory

I think you mean a lavatory

No I don't but that's fine too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English

The major question for me is, does it matter as much as it used to? I think the answer is no.

By traditional standards class meant something but these days I tend to put people into just two classes A-holes and not A-holes.

Wealth and education doesn't give someone class, land and title should do but Fulford proves that's wrong and I find that for me the essence of class is to do with politeness and decency. Hard to describe but some people are just "better" than others because they simply are.

I am working class because I work, end of and I suppose more importantly if the work I did now dried up I'd work at anything to support my family. I am by definition a worker a well off worker but a worker none the less. I expect it's because my roots aren't English.

You can talk as posh as you like, but an entry in Debretts or Burkes is required if you want to be upper class...

As it happens I'm in Burke's.... 😉

Whether it matters or not depends in whether you believe in a meritocracy.

Fashion. Classes are irrelevant and something of a construct to divide people. This is proven by the fact that we now seem to have developed an upper working class, lower and upper middle class etc - everyone is blending into a scale as you'd expect. There's no point whatsoever in identifying yourself with one particular portion of a scale.

Aspirations have nothing to do with class, plenty of poor people in traditionally working-class backgrounds have aspirations of greatness, it doesn't move them up this imaginary ladder.

Surely all meaningless once you get oxford educated lawyers (the Blairs) claiming to be working class...

Are working class people not allowed to become lawyers? (Not that I think the Blairs were working class, mind...)

Of course, but it's not quite "down t' Pit", is it?

Not quite 😉

i thorght it was done by the bank you use..

Coutts - upper class
HSBC, Lloyds etc - middle class
Giro's - working class

Seriously though, in the World as it is know it has to be primarily about household income. <£15,000 working class. £15,000 - £100,000 middle class and >£100,000 upper class.

the fact that the middle class is so broad explains why many people don't realise they are in it.

Surely Upper Class is only partly to do with money - Upper class is pretty much by birth isn't it?

It's gettin' out of the bath to have a piss..........that's the great divider.

it has to be primarily about household income.

Well I'd go for assets over income.

Then there are degrees of upper class:

1- inherited family land/property
2- inherited family furniture

2- inherited family furniture

Didn't Alan Clark once refer to Michael Heseltine as the sort of man who has to buy his own furniture?

joolsburger - Member
I was born working class and I will die working class. Weird because I'm pretty well off, believe in the value of paying for my children's education and by almost any standards would be regarded as middle class.

But I aint and wont ever be.

For me it's simple if you work you're working class if [b]you loaf and or ponce about you're one of the others[/b].
[/quote

So that could be interpreted as 2 million + new upper class then, loafing & poncing around?

 

No - I'm talking about trustafarians and the like.

I would say it wholly depends on whether you pronounce the word C**T with the 't' on the end of it or not..
If you don't.. then you're not a posh C**T.. and lets face it.. there's only two classes left in this country..

EDIT: ok three classes.. posh C**Ts.... rich C**Ts and the rest of us

I don't have the answer but it sure as hell isn't about income or money.

It's beans innit?

Supermarket brand - Working class
Heinz - Middle Class
No beans - Upper Class.

Even if someone from the working class ups their game and finds themself in the same financial ballpark as upperclass, they'll still buy their 'root' beans.

You look in Alan Sugar's cupboards, filled to the brim with Aldi tinned veg, you mark my words.

If you have to sell your labour then you are working class, if you
earn income from the the profit made from employing others or your investments or property then you are middle class.

We buy our art from IKEA, our next door neighbour lends hers to the Ashmolean. Different class.

hia = working class

hello = middle class

helair = upper class

HAWHAWHAWHAW = royalty

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still f***ing peasants as far as I can see

Quite an insightful chap was Mr Lennon! 😉

If you have to sell your labour then you are working class, if you
earn income from the the profit made from employing others or your investments or property then you are middle class.

Spot on.

Simple -

Working Class -if you have got a job and need the money, you're working class no matter how well you are paid.

Middle Class -if you have got a job but can walk away from it, you're middle class.

Upper Class - if you're a **** whose head would look better separated from your body by Madame Guillotine

Edit: wow! good filtering there

[i]Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still f***ing peasants as far as I can see[/i]

Quite an insightful chap was Mr Lennon!

Not a Lennon fan, but was listening to this on a compilation a few weeks ago, and it struck a chord... worth quoting in full:

As soon as your born they make you feel small,
By giving you no time instead of it all,
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so ****ing crazy you can't follow their rules,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.

When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,
Then they expect you to pick a career,
When you can't really function you're so full of fear,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still ****ing peasents as far as I can see,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.

There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill,
A working class hero is something to be.
A working class hero is something to be.

If you want to be a hero well just follow me,
If you want to be a hero well just follow me.

khani - Member

hia = working class

hello = middle class

helair = upper class

HAWHAWHAWHAW = royalty

😀

I don't really understand the hatred towards the upper classes. They have inherited money but so what, its not their fault is it?
I've met some posh officers who were really nice people and some idiots. Pretty much the same as every other group really.

[i]Ok, what about if I don't have a job, shop at Aldi's, can't afford a holiday, and am dependent on benefits to support my family. What class am I in then? [/i]

Underclass mate.

Also the real split for me between working and middle class is due to attitude and education, with a small 'e'. Just 'cos you have a degree it doesn't make you middle class.

And as far as income goes, many people in blue collar jobs earn far more than those in white collar roles - so you can't really split it this way.

[i]I've met some posh officers who were really nice people and some idiots. Pretty much the same as every other group really. [/i]

Leslie Phillips for example?

[i]Phillips came from a background of poverty... sent to the Italia Conti Academy to receive elocution lessons in order to lose his natural cockney accent... due to his acquired upper crust accent, Phillips was selected for officer training at Catterick and duly commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Royal Artillery in 1943.[/i]

How you have your coffee:
instant = working class
ground = middle class
ring a bell and a little man brings it to you = upper class

I thought that the working class worked in trades and the middle classes worked in the professions. So working class folks served apprenticeships or had other vocational training, while the middle classes were educated at universities.

Some professions, like engineering, used to be fairly exclusive, with only a few professionals in charge of a load of workers (mechanics, technicians, etc). These days there's way more people who are university educated and fields like engineering often expect degree level qualifications, so the middle class has expanded downwards to encompass people who'd previously have been working class. Another example might be nursing, which has become more academic than it once was and IIRC recently it was announced that all new nurses would have to have degrees.

Depends IMO in how you refer to your earnings
working class = a wage
middle class = a salary
upper class = an income

If you can give up work and retain ownership of your key assets (ie house) then you are middle class.

Woohoo, I'll be middle-class in a couple of years when the mortgage is paid off......

thought that the working class worked in trades and the middle classes worked in the professions. So working class folks served apprenticeships or had other vocational training, while the middle classes were educated at universities.

I'd see this as a consequence of class background, not an indicator. In the past the professions were the (almost) exclusive preserve of the middle classes because of the limited access to higher education required for the entry qualifications.

Today, a far greater percentage of young people get degree level academic qualification and can enter the professions - but it doesn't make them middle class.

In the same way, farmers, or other small local business owners are very much middle class - irrespective of any academic qualifications (often none). Many of the small businessmen I know have such "down to earth" attitudes (ie would make the BNP blush) that they would never be able to work as an employee for very long in most firms without getting fired....

I know my place.

hia = working class

hello = middle class

helair = upper class

HAWHAWHAWHAW = royalty

Is both amusing and for me the most accurate.

It's all cultural.