MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
This letter was sent home with young TW last night from school. Its a CofE primary school, and the letter had a slip to sign to opt out. Not sure what to make of it really. What does STW think? Anyone ever heard of living fire? Who are they?
On the morning of Friday 10th May we have the unique opportunity to welcome an experienced team
of schools’ workers and teachers, with a passion and gift for sharing the love of God with children.
They will host a series of short interactive workshops, giving each child the opportunity to engage with
God using a range of tools and discussion-starters. “What do you think God sounds like? What does
God see when he sees you? How does he feel about you? If you could ask him any question, what
would it be?”
The aim of the workshops is to use fun, relevant ways to engage with God, building confidence in
communicating with him and offering ways in which we can receive his extravagant, unconditional
love. The team hosting the workshops come from Living Fire and have years of experience
working with children.Living Fire is a local church, which was started in January 2018. Church meetings are held in
members’ homes, with a view to offer a different expression of Church to those who would feel more
comfortable worshipping God in a smaller, more familiar environment. Living Fire is built on Biblical
principles and shares the Basis of Faith of the Evangelical Alliance and the Church of England.
Two things:
1) Why are my taxes paying for a school to offer this religious indoctrination
2) It's cultish but probably no more harmful then many other mainstream religious groups.
I'd be signing the opt out slip!
Is it this lot?
GOD APPROVES!
The punk/Christian band?
Living Fire:
beaten to it!
🙂
Sounds like a pretty standard 'house church' setup. Which can anything from a nice, friendly happy clappy unit to a load of nutters who got kicked/walked out of a proper church for being a bit extreme and now have to meet in someone's front room.
Hard to tell from that write-up, they all tend to try to sound reasonable until the impressionable minds are in front of them.
I looks like one of the teachers at the school is involved with Living Fire. The content is possibly the way the school should be structuring RE lessons. I'm not a parent but I'm not sure I would be happy with an external group like that using the school in that way to promote their church. I'm not sure I agree with faith schools, but I do think schools should be discussing the main religions in an open and impartial way to help break some of the myths and prejudices held in society.
Living Fire ? Sounds one step away from The Lord Of Light 🙂
I have not heard of this particular group but there are many known cases of evangelicals attempting to use schools to indoctrinate in this way.
IMO not only do you sign the opt out. you contact whoever is in charge and ask for an explanation of who they are and who invited them and why.
I know that a few of these outfits have been banned from schools once they have been looked into
Deeply suspicious behaviour
cult
Id be complaining to the school, but we're lucky enough that we didnt have to send our kids toa church school
receive his extravagant, unconditional love
What is extravagant love?
Pffft - just tell your daughter she can go along and introduce them to her own imaginary friend. She can tell them all they need to know what that sounds like and what it thinks about and even what its favourite food is.
I'd let my kid decide. I know what he'd choose.
Few years ago schools were letting people peddle yo-yos to the kids, now it's this low yo-yo stuff. (thanks, Capn. Beefheart). Disgusting really.
What is extravagant love?
I think that's the one where the deity creates mosquitoes and malaria so that millions can die each year.
It says they share "faith" with the Evangelical Alliance. The EA is readily Googleable:
Seems they are at least a little bit culty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Army#Baptist_Union_and_Evangelical_Alliance_membership
In any case, believer or no, I'm not sure as I'd want a bunch of self-described evangelists popping round for tea and biscuits. Doubly so with kids of primary school age.
And it does rather raise the question: why is this even necessary in a CofE school, don't they have RE teachers already? Isn't that, like, what they're being paid for?
Anyway, looks dodgy and is nothing to do with your local affiliated CE church.
What TJ said - don't just leave it/opt out.
I wouldn’t let my kids get involved in that and I’m a card carrying, churchgoing pillar of the community
That sort if thing is for the parents to teach them ( or not as they see fit)
Not the school and certainly not some randoms who appear to give a talk.
What if weeks guest “teacher” is Mr. Woppit?
Legz Akimbo.
Avoid!
What is extravagant love?
Chips AND a doner.
Two things:
1) Why are my taxes paying for a school to offer this religious indoctrination
Its a CofE primary school
Regrettably we still don't separate religion and education in this country (religious education is not the same) and due to the various funding mechanisms in place many church schools are better funded and produce better results than non Church schools. But, really, "this religious indoctrination" goes with it being a religious school.
I’d be signing the opt out slip!
I personally wouldn't, I'd say this sort of stuff goes with sending your children to a church school.
To the Op I'd say it sounds benign enough assuming you're OK with the church element of their education as it's. If you're actually bothered it might be a bit over wierd then it'd suggest asking if you can attend one of living fire's meetings before agreeing to your children attending (sounds a bit quaker-ey to me but that's very third hand), but really seeing different sides and methods of worship is a good thing (I imagine they'd not be so keen to invite a group of Sikhs or a local Imam [or heaven forbid catholics or orthodox] into the school but I'd think of this in the same vein)
Both my kids went through plenty of this at a CofE primary school and have come out fine. Come to think of it, so did I, and spells at Sunday School.
They've also come out of trips to mosques without becoming jihadis, and various other temples/places of worship without falling foul of any evil plot. They are, however, better informed about major world religions than I am.
If you feel your kids are prone/susceptible to being brainwashed by this sort of thing then the solution may be to broaden their knowledge and experience outside of school
Chips AND a doner.
Just spat tea all over my keyboard. Well played.
If you feel uncomfortable with it then opt out. I’ve no idea if it’s a cult or not but they’ve given your child the choice.
it’d suggest asking if you can attend one of living fire’s meetings before agreeing to your children attending
That's how they get you. First it will be bourbons, nice coffee and a bit of gentle guitar strumming, next you're double-tithing, worried about your sinfulness, and wondering none of your old friends want to talk to you any more.
I’d let my kid decide. I know what he’d choose.
Sort of this - my 9 yr olds recently did some homework which (amongst a great many other things) asked them to say if they had a faith to which they both said no. However I *DO* want them to make the decision for themselves and we don't exclude them from religious based activities at school (in fact we do occasionally take them to church - ie Christmas, Harvest Festival, Easter etc). But the OP situation seems a bit too intrusive for me - I'd probably ask them what they wanted to do and the answer would firmly be in the 'if their friends are doing it, they will'.
At the end of the day, I don't believe (my wife continues not to be sure) but I would be happy if they decided for themselves that they do believe. Just like I would be happy if they decided to be vegetarians despite my being a committed meat eater.
If you feel your kids are prone/susceptible to being brainwashed by this sort of thing then the solution may be to broaden their knowledge and experience outside of school
Nail: Head.
(Feet and hands too, if you're into that sort of thing)
Send him with a list of really awkward pre-prepared questions?
I had to sit through a CoE primary school, and whilst I probably believed at the time as there wasn't really an option not to, looking back it seems like a monumentally stupid way to waste 10-20% of every day when they could have been teaching something a bit more relevant for the approaching 21st century!
But then religion does seem to make some people happy and they find it helpful.
That’s how they get you. First it will be bourbons, nice coffee and a bit of gentle guitar strumming, next you’re double-tithing, worried about your sinfulness, and wondering none of your old friends want to talk to you any more.
Oddly the one person I know who ended up in something I'd very much think of as a cult wasn't allowed coffee or biscuits or even cake for that matter so I don't suppose it was how they got her. Probably the free communal housing sold it.
First it will be bourbons, nice coffee and a bit of gentle guitar strumming, next you’re double-tithing, worried about your sinfulness, and wondering none of your old friends want to talk to you any more.
could be worse, you might end up trapped on a cruise ship catching measles:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-48130848
[i]and spells at Sunday School[/i]
Cool! Did you manage to turn anybody into a toad?
If you feel your kids are prone/susceptible to being brainwashed by this sort of thing then the solution may be to broaden their knowledge and experience outside of school
That's not really my worry or issue. I have opted them out as it happens. My issue is how the school can invite these groups in, what checks have been done considering they were only established in 2018. Is it necessary, and what are the expected benefits to the kids education? As someone else posted, it smacks of a member of staff, maybe the newly appointed head, being a member of this church. In which case I think it would be highly suspect and possibly unethical.
Sounds like a fairly normal thing for a Church school to do. They will have a Christian set of beliefs and probably think this is a different and engaging way of presenting things. It's not strictly CofE and that is probably why they offer the opt out.
My issue is how the school can invite these groups in, what checks have been done considering they were only established in 2018. Is it necessary, and what are the expected benefits to the kids education?
I take it you've asked the school this?
I take it you’ve asked the school this?
I am trying to, just waiting for the new heads email address.
I'm totally with perchy on this one, although unlike him, I am not a pillar of the community.
our school recently did
* peddling a dodgy "pay for video lessons" scam complete with weapons grade FOD tactics which were tantamount to saying "the schools a pile of shoot, so buy our stuff if you want your children to live do well in life"
* a seminar telling us how to protect our kids against a non existent internet threat that was debunked a few years ago
both of which took around 30 seconds of googling to conclusively discredit in one way or another
A change of PTA coincided with this rubbish starting, in our case. Another change of PTA might coincide with it stopping. I hope.
I am trying to, just waiting for the new heads email address
S.m.moon@waco.ac.uk
Going by the contents of the letter, this is not a piece of comparative religious education, it's straight up missionary work by an evangelical group. I'd be sceptical about independent house churches as well. How transparent are they? Are they operating under standard child protection procedures, etc?
I have experience of an in-law who was involved with a fairly big local independent church, affiliated (franchised) from an American evangelical movement. It turned out there were some seriously dodgy people involved in running the operation. Of course that can apply to any religious organisations, but independents can potentially be even less transparent about how they work.
Even if it is above board, I'd be staying well clear.
IMO it's dangerous, subversive rubbish but you chose to send your child to a church school so I'm not sure why you are surprised that they are teaching them about god and religion?
It's only one morning with some extra keen god bothers, I doubt it will actually have much impact on your children. They might enjoy it and unless you are planning on taking your kids to one of their houses for a pray, these people will never have contact with your kids again. I would not stop them going as that is just forcing your religious view on them.
My children go to a COfE school, I am not religious and that decision comes form years of being made to go to church and it being part of school life/ education when I was little.
I am not particularly worried about my children being exposed to Christianity as I don't really think it takes at that age. Most of the adult Christians I know we're 'got' in there 20s.
It depends how comfortable you are with a group of unknown adults, who are probably not trained teachers, spending time in school telling your child lies as truth, probably with a leaning to homophobia and misogynistic thinking. Doesn’t sound fun or educational.
Churches are just state sanctioned cults.
Both my kids went through plenty of this at a CofE primary school and have come out fine. Come to think of it, so did I, and spells at Sunday School.
They’ve also come out of trips to mosques without becoming jihadis, and various other temples/places of worship without falling foul of any evil plot. They are, however, better informed about major world religions than I am.
If you feel your kids are prone/susceptible to being brainwashed by this sort of thing then the solution may be to broaden their knowledge and experience outside of school
This ^
JP
an organisation that operate out of people's homes has even more potential to be rather unsavoury, even more so that your standard church institutions. I'd definitely be opting out,
I have looked into this lot a little bit more. They are a fundamentalist "christian" cult IMO. Dangerous and unsavoury people who are attempting to gain converts.
In the OPs position I would not only be withdrawing my kids. I would be doing everything in my power to stop them getting into the school.
You say its a new head. I have read of these outfits doing exactly this once they have a supporter in the school who can invite them. Its entryism attempting to gain a foothold in the UK school system to brainwash children.
Its no fluffy COE group. Its a rather nasty bunch.
Sounds pretty cult like to me. Don’t think I’d be keen on either of my kids being involved without me having more knowledge of the group beforehand. Living fire sounds like a gas fireplace from the 1960’s too.
I have looked into this lot a little bit more.
Care to show your working?
What is extravagant love?
I've watched the odd film on the internet where the gentleman gives the lady some extravagant love. Doesn't seem the best of ideas in school if I'm honest. I can't even persuade my wife to except my extravagant love in the privacy of the bedroom. I would imagine god in his omnipotent glory would be capable of generating far more extravagant love than the gents I have seen on the internet which is not something I'm really looking forward to receiving.
I have looked into this lot a little bit more.
So have I. This charming looking gentleman is the driving force.
Cougar - Searched round t'internet and read a bit of their stuff. Its not fluffy COE or even RC type stuff. Its US fundamentalist creationist stuff.
Have a search for them. IMO they appear to be the sort of people who should not be allowed around kids. dishonest as well pretending in that letter to be a local church when actually they are a US outfit.
As known from many previous conversations I have little time for organised religion but this lot appear to be way out there Combat 18 to the COEs UKIP if you want an analogy
I can’t even persuade my wife to except my extravagant love
Really? I'd have thought she excepted it on a regular basis.
Really? I’d have thought she excepted it on a regular basis.
That's where I've been going wrong all those years. Except, accept - my time in the sack will be immeasurably better now. Ta.
Church
Cult
Plenty of unknown adults have led sessions at my kids schools, many of them representing groups prone to misogyny and homophobic views. My God, the numbers of football coaches that do after school stuff, trying to indoctrinate the kids to support the local championship team.
FFS, the paranoia about religion on here is pathetic and laughable sometimes.
Yup kids loaded with tricky questions..
Do slugs go to heaven? Why not? What about giraffes? Butterflys? But why grandad and not slugs?
Did he really rise from the dead? But that's impossible! Could a slug rise from the dead if Jesus could? What about turning water into wine..could a slug do that?
More cash - there is a serious difference between COE and evangelical fundamentalist creationists
I’d be opting out and generally I am a lot more tolerant of religion than many on here.
What is extravagant love?
Chips AND a boner.
TJ - absolutely, but I wouldn't have a problem with them running a session for my kids. Once the kids report back what is being said, then the parents can make a more informed choice and pressure the head as required.
I have an issue with them getting anywhere near children. This is a cult. Would you be happy for scientologists to be allowed to attempt to indoctrinate children?
tbh I have a problem with anyone getting near kids who talks as if the existence of god is a statement of fact rather than reporting on it as a possible belief held by some. Religious education should be done in an impartial manner and (imo) the student should not be able to discern if the teacher is an atheist or has a faith.
But the op chose a faith based school for their kid(s) so I guess that is out of the window.
I love all this 'the op chose a faith based school'
Do any of you actually have children? Have you tried getting into a primary school that is near your house/near another siblings school/actually has space etc etc
We have 3 primary schools near us and 2 are cofe. The third is RC. As it happens even the RC school is easy on the dogma and the other 2 might as well be atheist apart from a couple of hymns but if they weren't nobody here would have had a choice.
In the OP's situation I would be well pissed off and certainly opting my children out plus asking wtf the school was thinking.
I like jekkyls idea but maybe with some added questions on dinosaurs.
Let the kids go along and have them hand out some leaflets from this organisation:
https://www.churchofsatan.com/
Cat, meet pigeons... 😁
My son's cryptofacist militarist Beaver colony went to a polytheist psychedelic Buddhist monastery the other week. All the children exploded. True fact.
There's a big difference between the Beavers going on an educational visit to a monastery and an evangelical house church coming into a school to actively sell their message. Buddhism isn't exactly known for proselytising anyway, is it?
Plenty of unknown adults have led sessions at my kids schools, many of them representing groups prone to misogyny and homophobic views.
That's quite surprising if it's true, and I'd be having a word with the apprioriate authorities about how those schools are fulfilling their child protection duties...
I don't see any paranoia here, just people taking from their experience. I wouldn't want a group like Living Fire anywhere near my kids, and I'd happily explain why to the kids themselves.
I'd be opting out but then I feel uncomfortable when the Gideon's come in to hand out bibles.
Schools rightly should be inclusive. The Gideon's that spoke were very "man and woman in marriage" and a bit fire and brimstone. Not a message kids should be hearing.
But the op chose a faith based school for their kid(s) so I guess that is out of the window.
As stated above, most parents have at best the illusion of choice.
As for the OP's question, it would be a no from me!
A church of England school teaching children about God. Seems to me what you signed up for by sending your child to a religious school.
I love all this ‘the op chose a faith based school’
Do any of you actually have children? Have you tried getting into a primary school that is near your house/near another siblings school/actually has space etc etc
If only people could choose where to live.
The Buddhists were quite pushy actually, but also boring, the kids were more interested in the statues
The Buddhists were quite pushy actually
Really? That's interesting, since Buddhism discourages proselytising. What message were they pushing?
Seems to me what you signed up for by sending your child to a religious school.
Quick Google shows only a third of schools are non faith based. You'd have to be pretty selective on where you lived to find one. But then STW ≠ The Real World.
Faith schools make up a significant chunk of the state primary school sector in England. As of September 2014, there were 6,210 state-funded faith primary schools, making up 37 per cent of the total number of primary schools.
and
In 2011, about one third of the 20,000 state funded schools in England were faith schools,[9] approximately 7,000 in total, of which 68% were Church of England schools and 30% were Roman Catholic. There were 42 Jewish, 12 Muslim, 3 Sikh and 1 Hindu faith schools.[1]
So exactly the opposite of what you state. Did your eyes and common sense from walking around the country for a lifetime not tell you that 2/3rds faith based was out of wack with reality? Maybe you live in a particularly god bothering part of the country. A third is still an astonishingly large number admittedly.
Both my kids went through plenty of this at a CofE primary school and have come out fine. Come to think of it, so did I, and spells at Sunday School.
They’ve also come out of trips to mosques without becoming jihadis, and various other temples/places of worship without falling foul of any evil plot. They are, however, better informed about major world religions than I am.
If you feel your kids are prone/susceptible to being brainwashed by this sort of thing then the solution may be to broaden their knowledge and experience outside of school
This.
Plenty of unknown adults have led sessions at my kids schools, many of them representing groups prone to misogyny and homophobic views. My God, the numbers of football coaches that do after school stuff, trying to indoctrinate the kids to support the local championship team.
FFS, the paranoia about religion on here is pathetic and laughable sometimes.
This. A group from a local wildlife centre came into my daughter's school this week telling them they should be nice to hedgehogs. They attempted to groom the kids by bringing real hedgehogs in and there was even hedgehog indoctrination worksheet sent home with the kids. As yet my daughter hasn't strapped explosives to herself and blown herself up in a garden fencing firm.
One group visiting is indoctrination, dozens of groups visiting is an education.
My son’s cryptofacist militarist Beaver colony went to a polytheist psychedelic Buddhist monastery the other week. All the children exploded. True fact.
😀
I have an issue with them getting anywhere near children. This is a cult. Would you be happy for scientologists to be allowed to attempt to indoctrinate children?
I wouldn't. Having had a sit down chat with scientologists as teenager I'm pretty sure no normally inteligent well balanced child is going to go for scientology and if a child isn't normally inteligent and well balanced then primary school age is a good time to identify that years before they have money to steal or the ability to leave home. I suspect the Christian message of 'Thou shalt not kill' will be greeted with equal skeptisim by a bunch of blood thirsty primary school kids.
The Church of England have never been that bothered if you are religious or not, plenty of vicars historically have been non-believers. You generally don't have to pretend you're faithful to get your kid into one, unlike RC schools. Allowing this type of evangelism into a CofE school smacks of someone in authority telling everyone they're not religious enough.
So exactly the opposite of what you state. Did your eyes and common sense from walking around the country for a lifetime not tell you that 2/3rds faith based was out of wack with reality?
Hmm, fair enough, maybe my google was too quick.
I haven't walked around the country, but i would've guessed, from experience (I do have a child, unlike many on this thread), that most schools [i]were[/i] faith based. That's why I googled (and got it wrong).
OUrs is a CofE school. They get a bit of RE and some hymns at assembly. That's generally about it. Not exactly indoctrination.
We have zero choice about where ours go, unless we fancies a nice long drive to drop them off and pick them up every day. The local school is (just about) walking distance, or a five minute detour on the way to/from work.
I'd imagine most folk are in a similar situation. Moving house* is not exactly a simple or always even realistic option as anyone with half a brain has probably worked out for themselves. Funnily enough, the houses near good schools also tend to be higher price for some reason.
* to somewhere in "the right school's" catchment area
Allowing this type of evangelism into a CofE school smacks of someone in authority telling everyone they’re not religious enough.
Smacks to me of a teacher receiving the offer and thinking "I'll let these guys come in for an hour I can get on with some marking and it gives the kids a new perspective so when they're older they won't be as paranoid about religion as the tin-foil heads on STW."
Plenty of unknown adults have led sessions at my kids schools, many of them representing groups prone to misogyny and homophobic views. My God, the numbers of football coaches that do after school stuff, trying to indoctrinate the kids to support the local championship team.
FFS, the paranoia about religion on here is pathetic and laughable sometimes.
My comment was not about religion or even the C of E. The OP mentions an ethos from the evangelical alliance. As Im sure you know, most evangelicals will support a homophobic and misogynistic biblical understanding of the bible and they will support that as if it were a fact rather than an interpretation.