[Closed] Chinese Medicine

vickypea - Member

How about prunes, all-bran and plenty of water for constipation?

If that works then I don't see any harm in using them.

But sometimes it is to re-balance/restore the chi back for long term health benefit.

Also try to sleep early and get plenty of rest.

Proper Chinese medication is not one size fits all so even if you get the ingredients they will not work properly for all. The aspect of diagnosing is very important as the herbs prescribe will have to custom for that particular patient only. If others take it the effect will either be too strong or not effective.

You realise you've just basically described homeopathy?

Constipation is usually due to high body "heat/positive energy" i.e. the yang chi being too strong. The medication is to restore her weak ying/negative energy.

Pretty much sums up traditional Chinese medicine.

There's no such thing as "alternative medicine." There's "medicine" and there's "not medicine." It's quite simple.

Cougar - Moderator

You realise you've just basically described homeopathy?

Well, whatever work best for you.

Chinese medication works for me that's all I know.

Pretty much sums up traditional Chinese medicine.

There's no such thing as "alternative medicine." There's "medicine" and there's "not medicine." It's quite simple.

That simple eh? 🙄

Oh well just look after your health and stay healthy.

Whatever works, works.

Whatever works [i]beyond placebo,[/i] works.

Cougar - Moderator

Whatever works beyond placebo, works.

If it works it works. Simple.

😆

Your link does not refer to anything happening in the UK.

No, you're quite right, it doesn't, nothing bad happens in the UK.

[url= http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/04april/Pages/chinese-medicines-contain-endangered-animal-DNA.aspx ]..of course there was this one from the NHS though...[/url]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/mens-health/9200397/Chinese-medicines-contain-traces-of-endangered-animals.html ]...or this from the telegraph?[/url]

[url= http://www.operationcharm.org/traditional-chinese-medicine/ ]Operation Charm[/url]

I'm sure your interest in it does not involve endangered species ( and funnily enough I was actually considering the practise slightly beyond just your experience when I quoted)but don't think that it doesn't happen just because we're in the wonderful UK.

Just to clarify, I'm not for a minute suggesting you personally support illegal trade in endangered species, just that it is unfortunately a problem in traditional Chinese medicine whichever country you live in.

Tim knows.

[img] [/img]

From the 9 minute beat poem, "Storm".

Show me a medical double blind study that tells me what is being sold will cure the common cold/stinky feet/toothache (or more concerning; HIV, Cancer etc) and I'll happily concede.

What concerns me is using the word medicine to sell potions to people when they haven't been proved to work may well stop people going to an actual doctor and getting something that actually works.

Many herbs, plants and other things have properties that will help with certain ailments - see the bark/asprin example however would you rather chew on a stick and try and get the dose right or take a handy little pill?

But sometimes it is to re-balance/restore the chi back for long term health benefit.

While in HK I visited a local medic for help with a very painful cricked neck, that bad I could not move my head more than a couple of inches

30 min latter of what I could call a beating, plus some extremely strong menthol ointment and a swig of something that I never want to taste again, I was completely cured.

Still have a bottle of the ointment and have used since for muscle pain, let's call it deep heat on steroids 😉

Tree-magnet thanks for the minchin heroics, I've not heard him do 'Storm' before. The man is a dude.

Doctors know that 95% of cases will actually resolve themselves in a few days.

Voltaire said that medicine is about amusing the patient while Nature cures him.

30 min latter of what I could call a beating, plus some extremely strong menthol ointment and a swig of something that I never want to taste again, I was completely cured.

30 min latter of what I could call a beating, plus some extremely strong menthol ointment and a swig of something that I never want to taste again, I was completely cured.

Sure, which is why we have remedial massage, physiotherapy...

Because don't get me wrong, the name isn't important. If alternative practitioners are giving out the same / similar treatment to trained medical professionals, of course it'll work.

The aspirin / tree root thing is a good example. The corollary to "I went to a Chinese doctor and he boiled up some bark to make me a nasty tasting tea, and all the pain went away" is "of course it did, it was a massive dose of salicylic acid." The only difference between that and "Western" medicine is that you'd then be getting a metered, measured dosage in a convenient pill format, the rest is just misdirection.

I detecting a lot of negative of energy there Cougar, have you tried pulling your Yang to release some tension?

i like to think of it as prevention is better than cure .. where the medicine is more like an additive to redress the cause and a bit of the issue. After all It must be good if it tastes this bad 🙂

Everyone is different so what ever works for you. Oh and I'm of the more heaty side and everyone could do with bowls of soup every now and then.

Chinese medicine? Gets the same response as any medicine that isn't proven by controlled trials.

[img] [/img]

Other than for the reason of wanting an argument I don't know why you are deliberately misrepresenting the both the point I made and the OP's question kayak23.

It seemed clear to me at least, that the OP was referring to Chinese traditional medicine as available at any high street in most towns in the UK, not 'knobs off endangered animals' and 'powdered badgers gall bladder', the very different and totally unacceptable illegal stuff.

And as if to make the point your own link, the third one, clearly states, quote, [i][b]"The campaign is supported by The Federation of Traditional Chinese Medicine and The London Chinatown Chinese Association"[/i][/b]with reference to the Metropolitan Police Wildlife Crime Unit operation.

It also states, quote, [b][i]Operation Charm is not against the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade [/i][/b]

Did you read your own links ?

Dangerous and illegal activities concerning western medicine is widespread, and yet that doesn't justify condemning western medicine as disreputable.

Just to clarify, I'm not for a minute suggesting you personally support illegal trade in endangered species

Is that because I said, and then later repeated, quote :

[b][i]"the only traditional Chinese medicine I've experienced other than acupuncture has been herbal infusions"[/i][/b]

❓

Everyone is different so what ever works for you

The marvellous thing about "doing science" is that we can figure out what treatments work for a given condition for everyone, and then keep them.

"Everyone different" - oddly enough, that can get factored in to the trails of a treatment or technique and if someone's particular physical makeup shows a treatment to be contraindicated, then it's not done, and an alternative (although presumably less effective) treatment is done instead.

"doing science" gets you stuff that works. Guesswork, shamanism, etc doesn't.

I detecting a lot of negative of energy there Cougar, have you tried pulling your Yang to release some tension?

My wife's Chinese and on a visit to China her family took us to a Chinese medicine institute sort of place in SE China. Wife's family said she should have an examination, I just went outside as thought it a waste of time and bound to end up costing money (he he) turned out I was right as wife yelled out the window for me to bring my credit card, I ignored her. So her Mum bought some medicine which was supposed to make her less lethargic or something - cost equiv to £250 or so which is a huge chunk of cash to Chinese people but wife's family are wealthy. When we got home I asked her if she was going to take it, eventually she just binned it.

So she's still lethargic.

Who knows what's in their products?

This happened locally to me:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8520171.stm

Guilty plea in Chinese herbal 'cancer' case

A practitioner of Chinese medicine has pleaded guilty to selling a banned substance to a woman who went on to develop kidney failure and cancer.

Ying "Susan" Wu, 48, of Holland-on-Sea in Essex, has been on trial at the Old Bailey for selling pills containing aristolochic acid to a civil servant.

The judge said he accepted Ms Wu had not meant to harm, and that the case highlighted the need for regulation.

Ms Wu has now been given a conditional discharge.

Patricia Booth, 58, took the pills, bought at Chelmsford's Chinese Herbal Medical Centre, for over five years. She was in her mid-40s when she first sought help from the centre in 1997 for stubborn patches of spots on her face.

I've used it a few times. I can't remember what the acupuncture was for, it was ages ago but it really helped and it was like the undoing of a knot in my head, like an elevated meditation. I will always remember that feeling.

Second time was for ligament damage in my shoulder, unsurprisingly this did not help, nor did a GP or a phsyio - none of whom figured out the problem. That took me and the internet.

My wife had the herbs for asthma and with taking them she was able to stop taking daily inhalers for the first time in many years. The medicine was also coupled with recommended dietary changes so I think several things worked together but I think this is crux, it works with your body and uses / enhances some of its own healing powers rather than coming with a load of chemicals and blasting it's way through. It may have slower more subtle effects but potentially these are longer lasting and cause less side-effects.

I liked the herbs too but the doc would only let me take them now and again. She said I had too much Chi already.

They did look like mud and tree bark mind.

[b]Vickeypea [/b]- leave us stoats alone! 😉

There can be [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27755/ ]serious problems[/url] with Chinise herbal remedies. Sometimes they work because they ain't herbal.

It is interesting how suddenly a few years ago there were so many Chnese herbal medicine shops which suddenly sprang up in even small towns. The programme that must have been organised to make sure that each of the owners was properly trained and supplying bona fide stuff, with proper governance, must have been huge.

Or maybe they didn't bother... God made sheep to be shorn.

I would definitely have "modern" accupuncture for some things though.

I'm not totally against herbal medicine but as Chewkw said earlier, there's a big difference between taking goodness-knows-what from any old Chinese medicine shop on the high street and having a trusted practitioner in the family.
I've also tried acupuncture myself with mixed results.

Is that recommended 🙂 What did you use? Got an image of you rummaging around to see what pins and needles you can find lying about....

[url]

Elephant (sans tusks and penis) in the room, people!

Chewkw is a DIPLOMAT?!?!?!?!?!

Edit no he isnt he's a beauraucrat. Ends in at. Quite a relief, really.

We had a friend who went the chinese medicine route, she ended up with lead poisoning. On the plus side, it gave her something to take her mind off her original minor ailment and associated gullibility.

Mud shark - sorry wasn't clear! I didn't do the acupuncture to myself, I had it done to me 🙂

Oh shame!

It's a marketing truism that if something is sold cheap, most customers will think it's no good and if it's expensive most will think it is superior.

In quack medicine if something smells or tastes disgusting, it is considered good. The placebo effect is powerful and is well understood by doctors and exploited; for example drugs manufacturers have discovered that pills are much more effective if they are the right colour - red, orange or yellow for "pick up" and purple, blue or mauve for "calm down". It's also a fact that (as I wrote above) 95% of complaints will clear themselves up within a few days, which leads consumers of quack remedies to attribute their improvement to the remedy.

My wife does western medical acupuncture - it's a different 'theory' to chinese acupuncture, but uses most of the same points.

There is evidence for acupuncture for plenty of conditions - I suppose you could call [b]that [/b]'traditional medicine' in that sense.
It's interesting the points are the same, but the 'theory' is different...the equivalent to me giving someone an opiod and explaining "it works on the pain receptors to reduce the pain impulse to the brain", as opposed to a 'traditionalist' giving an opiod and saying "magic vodoo from mars comes and takes your pain away".

I think i just digressed didn't I...

DrP

Other than for the reason of wanting an argument I don't know why you are deliberately misrepresenting the both the point I made and the OP's question kayak23.

No, I really don't want an argument and I'm really not trying to misrepresent anyone. I was merely trying to say that (and I think what Vickypea said above confirms it in her case at least) that it is very difficult to always know exactly what you are buying when you buy TCM, whether it comes from 'dodgy' sources or not or that the ingredients are 100% accounted for, and that there ARE cases where illegal 'ingredients' have been found to be present.
Anyway.... you clearly are convinced by your experience of it, so that's great.

I used to have acupuncture actually(for anxiety) and found it helped me relax really well during and for a while after the session, but I guess that could have been down to having someone calming chat to you and fiddle about with you..... 🙂

but uses most of the same points.

😀

I think that colour of pills is a bit of an urban myth started by Ben Goldacre. I wrote to him about that giving him
numerous examples of where he was wrong, but he never replied!
For a start, Viagra is blue but you definitely want it to pick you up rather than calm you down. 😉

One reason why I wouldn't touch Chinese quack medicine: China is driving the extinction of elephants and rhinos in its quest for ivory and horn.

Another reason why I wouldn't touch Chinese quack medicine: many of the world's more unpleasant and dangerous or polluting chemicals are manufactured in China because thet's the only country that tolerates the factories. The Beijing Olympics caused worldwide shortages of some chemical feedstocks because the processes are so polluting that even the Beijing authorities had to close the factories down for the duration. This tells me the quack remedies are likely to be unsafe.

One of the acupuncturists I tried (for migraine) used to stick the needles in and then leave me lying down listening to Chinese music for an hour! Trapped I was!
Afterwards she did a brilliant head and neck massage though, which I think was the most effective bit.

Accupuncture is odd - i get it in my upper back and neck for tension.
When she sticks a needle into the upper neck, it makes my throat sore and I feel sick.

I'm told this is normal.

I wonder how far the needles are going in...!

DrP

Anyway.... you clearly are convinced by your experience of it, so that's great.

Convinced in what way ? I said in my very first post :

I've tried it a few times and ime it is foul and disgusting and I invariably came to the conclusion that I'd rather be ill than drink the vile concoctions.

To clarify, as you appear to be challenging me, my martial arts teacher, who became a personal friend, was a traditional Chinese doctor. On two or three occasions he gave me traditional Chinese herbs with which I had to make an infusion to help me recover from the Common Cold, something which I would never see my GP about.

It did not contain 'knobs off endangered animals' and 'powdered badgers gall bladder'. I have no idea whether it worked but I did find it foul, for that reason he stopped offering it to me and concentrated on acupuncture. Over a number of years usually after training he gave me acupuncture for all sorts of problems with mixed results, some of them quite simply stunning and others not so.

IMO it is perfectly feasible that Chinese herbal infusions might have a positive effect, not just a dangerous one. After all a glass of milk before bedtime can help you sleep, or a camomile tea can help you to relax, without the need to see your GP for sleeping pills or tranquilizers.

My Chinese traditional doctor friend worked initially, after coming over from Hong Kong, in a typical high street Chinese herbal shop, he was absolutely adamant that if you have a serious condition you should see your GP. He did, through the use of acupuncture, treat conditions which my GP/western medicine had failed to resolve to my satisfaction.

That's my experience.

DrP - Member
My wife does western medical acupuncture - it's a different 'theory' to chinese acupuncture, but uses most of the same points.

There is evidence for acupuncture for plenty of conditions - I suppose you could call that 'traditional medicine' in that sense.

It's this that really made me start the topic in the first place. I remember seeing a BBC documentary on the effects of acupuncture, and it concluding that it was verifiably effective in treating things like migraines.

Let's dig out the trepanning tools 😈

It may have been the 'trust me i'm a doctor' series?

There is evidence it offers help above placebo in certain conditions...
I'll grab them from her website..
[i]"Many health and well-being 'bodies' recognise the positive effects acupuncture can have on our lives. The National Institute of Clinical Excellence (NICE) say that acupuncture is an effective treatment for many complaints, including:

chronic back pain
dental pain
pain and discomfort during gastrointestinal endoscopy
headache and migraine
nausea and vomiting after an operation
pain and discomfort during oocyte retrieval (a procedure used during IVF)
osteoarthritis of the knee"[/i]

I was in agony when I had my oocytes retrieved...they had to call it off in the end.... 😉

DrP

Acupuncture? Herbs? Yingwong Chi infusing tea Chakra massage? Chiroquacktic adjustment? Load of cobblers for a bunch of lightweights.

If you wanna go old school, go all the way or give up. Next time you get the sniffles or some spots or a twinge in your back, get yourself some [b]trepanning [/b]done.

After all, they did it for thousands of years so that proves it works. Cured my mate's bald spot. Arguably. Sort of...

[url= http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/10/traditional_chinese_medicine_origins_mao_invented_it_but_didn_t_believe.html ]Chairman Mao Invented Traditional Chinese Medicine
[/url]

The reason so many people take Chinese medicine seriously, at least in part, is that it was reinvented by one of the most powerful propaganda machines of all time and then consciously marketed to a West disillusioned by its own spiritual traditions

It's a communist plot !!!!