[Closed] Cars, tyres, and drivers education

So genuine question why aren't there "all season" motorcycle tyres? My suspicions are:-
1. There isn't the market for them.
2. The difference is covered by being sport or touring tyres instead.

Oh & before you say it, yes we do ride in the snow too.

There seems to be a huge difference is price depending when all seasons are bought. I got a pair of 215/55 R17 Goodyear Vectors on offer from Costco in Sept at £105 each.

No all seasons in stock at Costco just now in that size. Black Circles quoting £145 each.

Ignoring the brand status anxieties for a moment, theres another little game you can play the next time you're idly riding or walking past a line of parked cars...spot how many cars are sat there on tyres with bulging sidewalls under the weight because they likely have about half the required PSI in them. Once you notice it you'll see it everywhere. There certainly seems to be an increase in frequency of the type of moron who has such low level of awareness and personal responsibility that they'll happily jump in the 2 tonne killing machine and drive off at motorway speeds while never having checked the pressure from the day the tyre was installed. In my mind these people are not worthy of owning a driving license. In a way modern cars have become so adept at isolating the driver from the driving experience that many seem to go about operating them with a similar mental bandwidth as they'd allocate to loading the dishwasher.

Not a tyre nerd. When I bought my Vespa it had two brand new Avon tyres. In anything other than dry and warm and they were awful and I dreaded riding in the wet or a mid ride shower. It always felt like it was about to slide out from underneath me.

Switched them for a pair of Michelin tyres and it completely changed the bike. Fantastic grip wet or dry.

Put Michelins on the car too - I won't bother with cheap tyres again. My Mrs on the other hand couldn't give a monkeys.

I suspect it’s bad driving rather than cheap tyres that cause more accidents.

Probably, yes. But how much of that bad driving would be mitigated with a decent set of tyres?

I’m not saying let’s all buy the minimum performing, I’m asking whether the minimum standards aren’t high enough.

Given the garbage that passes Construction and Use as an indicator (you know the type, clear glass inboard and right against the headlight that you can't see) then I'd suggest they aren't.

I could see myself getting all-seasons on a second set of wheels given where I live.

Or just get them as an all year set, my Cross Climates and Nexen somethingorothers have been fine so far.

Dickyboy
Full Member

So genuine question why aren’t there “all season” motorcycle tyres? My suspicions are:-
1. There isn’t the market for them.
2. The difference is covered by being sport or touring tyres instead.

Oh & before you say it, yes we do ride in the snow too.

Well, truth is hardly anyone does ride in the snow. So it'll be a titchy market, and smaller still in the UK. I was almost an all-weather, year-round rider but snow was where I drew the line whenever possible, just too dodgy and too many ****ing idiots out there, I found it really hard to ride how I wanted to ride with others around. Bad enough in a car! And that still puts me in a tiny minority.

There are M&S street motorbike tyres though- Dunlop Mutants, those Anlass ones that look like Roadtecs with sipes, probably others I've not seen. They're supposed to be winter tyres but I reckon they basically fall into "allseason" by comparison with cars- just because of the different capabilities.

So yeah I reckon you're right and most people's idea of "allseason" is really a touring/sport touring tyre.

And bikers being what we are, people are way more likely to buy inappropriate super-sticky rubber than sensible everyday road tyres. Or at the other extreme, put big blocky allterrain tyres on big trailies that'll never go further off road than a bike show car park, because they look right. I don't know what proportion of bikes are actually on their ideal tyre but I bet it's pretty small.

Also, I'm not a motorcyclist but - winter tyres still give a bit on snow. When trundling about gently this isn't a problem in a car but even a bit of slippage would be pretty bad on a motorbike I'd imagine.

There are M&S street motorbike tyres though- Dunlop Mutants, those Anlass ones that look like Roadtecs with sipes, probably others I’ve not seen. They’re supposed to be winter tyres but I reckon they basically fall into “allseason” by comparison with cars- just because of the different capabilities.

Thanks those Dunlop mutants look like the sort of thing I'll be after come next tyre change.

Riding in the snow is fun... but only on the right bike & to be fair I've not been an all year biker for 30 odd yrs but I still have some fond memories of epic journeys that would prob kill me these days.

I had Cross Climes on my last car and they were a bit more to buy but gave better fuel economy and lasted longer than the summer tyres they replaced. Overall, they were cheaper than summer tyres.

The current car is on its OE tyres but will get Cross Climes come the day.

You motorbikers need to embrace studs, so last decade you lot. Two sets here for my MTB's. Currently commuting on my 26" MTB with studs now, getting icy on the canal.

I think if you aren’t driving like it’s a racetrack the cheap brand tyres might actually be just as good - certainly when I was young and skint I never lost control of my car with whatever budget tyre had been stuck on it. I’d say if you are genuinely relying on the brand of rubber to get you round a corner or stop quicker then you might want to think about what your feet are doing that can achieve the same thing!

When I’ve asked what the difference was between two brands to justify a price difference I was told (on more than one occasion) it was about how long they would last before needing changed again - if you aren’t planning to keep the car that long and aren’t selling in a market where four matching top brand tyres adds value then it’s easy to see why the cheap ones will do.

Winter tyres only make sense in wintry areas - the rest of the time they may be adding a bit of cabin noise and reducing fuel economy marginally so if you only see snow once a year it’s easier just to stay at home that day - after all you’ll just get stuck behind all the less prepared people.

but I wonder if we couldn’t do A LOT more with new drivers here to make them more aware of what driving actually entails.

Have you looked at what a U.K. driving tests currently entails?

One can never predict the moment when you will benefit from the shorter stopping distances of a better performing tyre. Tends to be the wet condition grip performance that differs the most. Could be the difference between safely coming to a halt and arriving at the scene of the accident with more than ideal velocity.

You are wrong Poly. In my case going to all seasons drastically reduced tyre noise after replacing one Bridgestones. This test found my tyre and others pretty much the same as the summer tyre on noise.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2021-Tyre-Reviews-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

They also found all seasons more comfortable which matches my experience. Slightly better ride on bad surfaces. Like the equivalent in bikes of going to a more supple tyre.

My Goodyear was tested as having lower rolling resistance than the summer. So better economy I certainly have no complaints gettingv47 to 52mpg in a petrol Skoda Superb.

From my experience there are no downsides other than cost. If a set lasts 3 seasons and I meet snow once or twice I'm happy. And I get the benefits of better cold weather grip I'd I need it.

As far as tyre life goes. Jury is out. I sold my last car before wearing out a set. On my Superb the first pair replaced were the rear They did 10k before being moved to the front at which point they were measured at 7mm. So 1mm wear in 10k.

I don't think I've ever disagreed more with a statement on this forum than I do with what you just said, @poly.

First of all, I have certainly looked at what the UK driving test entails - both when I did it myself 20 years ago when I first moved over, and in the last year, as all of my older kids are either taking driving lessons now, or about to go for their own test.

I am not suggesting that the driving test here is inadequate; I AM suggesting that our approach to training could include more education around car and driving dynamics, as opposed to mere driving technique and highways code.

As for tyres, as you should be able to discern from everyone else's posts on the matter, the difference(s) between cheap and proper tyres is clearly not limited to longevity! It's R&D, tread, compound, durability, noise reduction, fuel economy, etc., etc... And no, it is NOT just a matter of how we drive that means we might push a cheap tyre beyond its limits. I mean, there are roads galore in the UK that are tighter and twistier than the speed limit takes into account (e.g. unlit, rural B roads for which the speed limit is 60 mph). A person could easily, and completely legally, overestimate how fast their car can take them around such curves without accounting for the fact that they have completely unworthy tyres under them. Then there is motorway driving. 70 is very fast. Lots of cars going 70 is very intense. Do I trust that everyone on the road with me is equally competent, alert, and well-equipped for the conditions as they should be? No. Do I trust that I am? Not always. I am human, after all. So why on earth should I (or we) countenance the added risk of rubbish tyres?

In any case, do I think that legislation should change, or tighten up on tyre quality for British vehicles? Absolutely.

@SaxonRider - wow I’ve managed to post the most controversial thing you’ve ever read on STW - the home of contrary views on almost everything. Do I get a special badge or anything? I feel honoured!

I’ve got things to do so don’t have time to dissect every bit of what you said:

And no, it is NOT just a matter of how we drive that means we might push a cheap tyre beyond its limits. I mean, there are roads galore in the UK that are tighter and twistier than the speed limit takes into account (e.g. unlit, rural B roads for which the speed limit is 60 mph). A person could easily, and completely legally, overestimate how fast their car can take them around such curves without accounting for the fact that they have completely unworthy tyres under them.

Speed limits are not a target, nor are they an excuse to avoid prosecution if you take a corner too fast and lose control. I’d go as far as to say if your super grippy tyres get you round a corner that someone else’s budget tyres don’t you are still driving too fast (too close to the likely failure point).

Then there is motorway driving. 70 is very fast. Lots of cars going 70 is very intense.

Motorways are the safest roads in the country by design. How many accidents on motorways are caused by a failure of the tyre to grip the surface?

In fact, like all legislation it really should have some basis in fact not just gut feel - so the stats are publicly available on contributing factors to (at least serious) accidents - how often is tyre/road adhesion a factor? And then since you are convinced your driver Ed was so much more effective - how come Canadian road fatalities seem to be more than double the U.K. rate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

There’s lots of things we could do to make our roads safer, playing to the marketing of big brands that their tyres are better wouldn’t be high up my priorities, and whilst I think it might be interesting to put people on skid pans as part of their training I’d rather they didn’t drive like dicks in the first place and I suspect teaching your average teenage boy exactly where the limits of the test car are and practicing sorting that in a controlled environment doesn’t lead to them being better at avoiding or reacting to it in their nova* on a muddy wet country road with trees rather than cones to hit, when distracted by loud music or mates in the back.

*this will give you an idea of my age!

There's a reason cheap tyres are known as 'hedge finders'...or up my end it's just as noticeable in bad wether conditions to notice the frequency of car sized holes punched through dry stone walls, I hazard a guess many of those drivers end up wishing they'd paid more attention to the thing keeping them on the black stuff...but then the averagely incompetent drivers seem to drive everywhere at the same speed regardless of conditions anyway. Driving standards have noticeably taken a massive hit in recent years out there; it is lack of driver education, lack of mechanical sympathy, big heavy cars that isolate the driver and mask conditions and speeds beyond the drivers skill level. In my world in order to keep a driving licence the driver would have to retake a stringent test every 10 years, which then after 70 becomes every 5. Slow-reflexed myopic octogenarians should be encouraged back into their default Nissan Micras rather than barreling along country roads at breakneck speeds beyond their ability level in their oversized 'utility' vehicles...which is now the most dangerous thing on the road as a cyclist 'round here from observation...(mildly tongue in cheek, or not)

or whatever other shite Kwik Fit have in stock that week.

To be fair my local Kwikfit is actually really good and the guys are knowledgeable and enthusiastic. I'm just getting a new set of Michelin Cross Climates for my 12yr old Focus down there this morning. They were cheaper than any other method.

(They were also cheapest for Yokohamas for the Atom 👍)

How many accidents on motorways are caused by a failure of the tyre to grip the surface?

You're looking at it the wrong way. The question is how many accidents caused by other things could have been avoided if a car could have stopped three, four, five metres quicker on better tyres? Those times when someone just steps out in front of you, and you can't stop - maybe with better tyres you would have stopped in time?

There's no question that countless kids' lives would have been saved if stopping distances were shorter. Well, you can shorten your stopping distance with better tyres.

I can't believe how many people apparently don't care about how fast they can stop in an emergency!

I used to know people that would drive their cars until the tyres blew, and then they knew they were finished. Sometimes they were too. Plenty of people with limps or in a wheelchair, although where I was living you could have just two cars on the road in sight and they'd still manage, like magnetism was at play, to hit each other.

I did once play with some Hankook Kinergy Eco tyres on a 2.0 auto Mondeo. My coworkers were shocked I bought them new and spent way more than they usually did. Since I was doing 1500 miles/week they made sense. Acceleration was drastically improved, and top speed was interesting (got an extra 6mph on top end) But, at low speed, the car used to get stuck on piles of desert sand, the ride was harder, and I couldn't corner as hard as the more replaced sluggish, balloon-like cheap Chinese tyres most were using on their saloons in the desert.

Well, truth is hardly anyone does ride in the snow. So it’ll be a titchy market, and smaller still in the UK. I was almost an all-weather, year-round rider but snow was where I drew the line

I'd totally agree with you - with one exception.

One of our foster kids used to have to ride his scooter about 5 miles to Stonehaven to get the train into college. We got him a Yamaha Tricity 125, the one with two wheels up front. I discovered you could get snow tyres to fit it. It was incredible in snow and ice! You literally couldn't fall off it! I used to take it out in heavy snow just for a laugh and to see people's reactions! Only really deep snow would halt it. What a great piece of kit.

@endoverend

There’s a reason cheap tyres are known as ‘hedge finders’…

I think you'll find they are only called that by petrol heads keen to "make progress". Everyone else adjusts their speed to the conditions (or is so oblivious to the conditions they will still crash anyway).

Driving standards have noticeably taken a massive hit in recent years out there; it is lack of driver education, lack of mechanical sympathy, big heavy cars that isolate the driver and mask conditions and speeds beyond the drivers skill level.

And yet statistically there's been no safer time to be on our roads (whether pedestrian, driver, passenger, or cyclist).

In my world in order to keep a driving licence the driver would have to retake a stringent test every 10 years, which then after 70 becomes every 5. Slow-reflexed myopic octogenarians should be encouraged back into their default Nissan Micras rather than barreling along country roads at breakneck speeds beyond their ability level in their oversized ‘utility’ vehicles…which is now the most dangerous thing on the road as a cyclist ’round here from observation…(mildly tongue in cheek, or not)

Intuitively that seems sensible but:
1. Accident stats don't back you up - older drivers do have a higher rate per mile driven but that is irrelevant if you only drive 1 mile per day and others drive 100 miles a day. On pure "no of accidents" basis there's a roughly linear reduction with age.

2. Insurance companies (who have a very good handle on risk) generally aren't penalising older drivers.
3. The fatality rates for over 70s in crashes are higher - but that applies whether driver, passenger, pedestrian etc - its not that they are a greater risk to others but rather that they are more vulnerable if they do have an accident.
4. We are one of the safest countries in the world to be on the roads. There are countries with tougher renewal requirements (medicals etc), but they aren't actually necessarily safer!
5. There are a couple of states in the US that require over 75s to retake a practical test - their stats aren't noticeably different from their neighbouring states.

To convince government that this is worthwhile you would need a model that shows how it will reduce the casualty rates (and not e.g. have unintended consequences like more oldies walking on roads or slipping on busses rather than taking their car). Given how often it gets suggested, not just here, some accademic must have tried to calculate the risk/benefit.

I did notice an article yesterday suggesting that there was a plan to extend a pilot scheme where those >70 who were caught committing a minor offence would be referred to a "fit to drive" programme rather than prosecution. I don't know the scheme details, and I hope its not seem as a get of jail card for the oldies.

@molgrips

How many accidents on motorways are caused by a failure of the tyre to grip the surface?

You’re looking at it the wrong way. The question is how many accidents caused by other things could have been avoided if a car could have stopped three, four, five metres quicker on better tyres? Those times when someone just steps out in front of you, and you can’t stop – maybe with better tyres you would have stopped in time?

But I was responding to a specific point about motorways. Pedestrians stepping out is a facile argument for motorways.

There’s no question that countless kids’ lives would have been saved if stopping distances were shorter. Well, you can shorten your stopping distance with better tyres.

Do you have any data on how many lives might actually be saved? Obviously some could but it requires the driver to be paying attention and to have hit the brakes at all. Had they just been driving a bit slower in the same circumstances they'd achieve the same. Obviously slower and an amazing tyre would be better still - but I'm sceptical that this is usually the deciding factor in preventing death. If it were you could imagine insurers might offer a discount for certain tyre types, or the premium tyre industry would have lobbied to get a tougher minimum standard.

And to be clear "countless" is at most ~50 per year, and that assumes EVERY child killed on our roads was preventable with better tyres.

I don't agree with you on the tyre thing, having experienced very poor tyres in the past that were an absolute liability in wet slippery conditions and could let go without warning at normal driving speeds. Which is why I wouldn't ever buy a budget tyre for any car I'm in command of, ever. I'm not really being serious about the driving test thing (tongue in cheek on t'internet doesn't come across so well), just reacting to the sour-faced old biddy in a range rover who forced me off the road on my last ride out...amazingly as I gave her eye contact as she sailed towards me at a speed completely unsuitable to the road, not deviating or flinching that speed one jot as she drove at me...she was actually muttering something like 'bloody cyclists get off the road' to her partner. Unfortunately this is a fairly frequent occurrence up my end.

“countless” is at most ~50 per year

To be horribly pedantic, that's not 'countless'. 50 is a count (even with a tilda 😉) ... 'Countless' is a subjective made up 'many' rather than a subjective made up 'few'.

Over and out 🙃

But I was responding to a specific point about motorways. Pedestrians stepping out is a facile argument for motorways.

Other emergency situations happen on motorways too that require hard braking and stopping quickly. I've seen quite a few.

It's facile to say 'just drive slower/better' IMO. There will always be emergency situations that require braking or swerving. Better tyres (as I demonstrated earlier) will result in you going slower when you hit or not hitting at all.

@boblo

To be horribly pedantic, that’s not ‘countless’. 50 is a count (even with a tilda 😉) … ‘Countless’ is a subjective made up ‘many’ rather than a subjective made up ‘few’.

Over and out 🙃

That was my point! Countless is a lazy technique to exaggerate the scale of the lives saved. The maximum possible is entirely countable, and then you can apply your own estimates on how often a better tyre might be the deciding factor and realise that in fact it probably is at best a few rather than a lot, but that wouldn't support molgrops idea that his "better tyres" are making him safer.

I hazard a guess many of those drivers end up wishing they’d paid more attention to the thing keeping them on the black stuff…

Nah. Most of them think "it's not my fault because..."

Countless is a lazy technique to exaggerate the scale of the lives saved. The maximum possible is entirely countable

Gordon Bennet.

Countless in this case means a significant number that I can't be bothered to look up.

but that wouldn’t support molgrops idea that his “better tyres” are making him safer.

Struggling here why you think better tyres *aren't* safer. If you have to brake hard, and you can't quite stop in time and you hit something - if you could stop faster, you could have not hit it, yes? You agree?

Soooo, to play Devil's advocate... At what point does 'some' become significant? Ie if it's generally accepted having the best (or even better) safety kit/systems is a good thing, at what point do individuals decide saving 'a few quid' is more important than themselves or others being saferer?

It's a bit like the silly discussion years ago about automatic train braking systems. The £ cost was so enormous, the then Govt (doesn't matter what flavour...) decided not to install the system, self insure for the deaths this would result in and beggar the consequences for the people impacted.

On a much smaller scale, this is what people do when they unconsciously or even deliberately compromise isn't it?

Yes. But what's interesting here is that for most people a car purchase is an elastic cost. For example, if you buy a ten grand car, you might only be able to put cheapo tyres on it. But you could very easily buy a six grand car and have enough money to put the best tyres on it for the next decade.

Other emergency situations happen on motorways too that require hard braking and stopping quickly. I’ve seen quite a few.

sightlines on motorways are intentionally very good, if you are having to do the level of braking where the brand of tyre matters you are most likely driving too fast, too close, or not paying attention.

There will always be emergency situations that require braking or swerving. Better tyres (as I demonstrated earlier) will result in you going slower when you hit or not hitting at all.

Of course. But how often is it the deciding factor?

I think what you, and the OP are missing is that vehicles on the roads in the UK can be broadly split into groups:

- Works vehicles: the driver has no choice in the tyre but its probably at least a reasonably well known brand to maximise the life of the tyre.
- New vehicles: still driving on the OEM tyres probably a good brand - presumably nobody expects people to replace those immediately with even better ones?
- Company cars and private leases with maintenance plans: again not much choice for the driver on what's on the four corners but probably a reasonable brand.
- Older vehicles getting the tyres replaced at the buyer's direct cost.

The last group will be factoring in all sorts of things:

- how long do I plan to keep the car (will I get any of my "investment" back at sale)
- how much does this tyre cost
- what is in stock
- what else do I need to spend money on for this car (given many drivers only notice their tyres at service/mot time that could be a lot!)
- can I eek out the existing tyre for a few more months
- when do I get paid / what else do I have to spend my ££ on

I think its fair to say that most people in this group are not cash rich - and so at 2.5mm tread may be facing a decision of change it now for a budget or wait till 1.6 and hope you can afford a premium (when you probably still can't and still fit a budget). My gut feel is going from 2.5mm of even a premium tyre to 8mm of budget is still an improvement - am I wrong?

Now if those were the only cars crashing, or were typically associated with more serious injuries (from higher residual speed) I think we would know. So whilst it might seem like a key issue to the average petrolhead trying to take country roads at speeds where you notice grip it really isn't a big driver of casualties.

Budget tyre buyer here. Now, before you all start frothing at the mouth I'll have it known that I don't buy the cheapest. The car needs all 4 replacing at the moment and there's no way I'd buy the £50 Landsails from Camskill, more likely it would be around £65.

Just because a type is made by Goodyear/Pirelli/Michelin it doesn't mean it's better. Take this test in a german magazine, they rate a £52 Nokian over the £107 Pirelli Cinturato P7 which are OEM for my car.

if you are having to do the level of braking where the brand of tyre matters

In many accidents, drivers are braking to try and stop before hitting something. Better tyres means you're going slower when you hit, or you don't hit at all. I really don't understand what on earth you are arguing about.

Now if those were the only cars crashing, or were typically associated with more serious injuries (from higher residual speed) I think we would know.

Too many other factors. A large portion of expensive cars are driven by executives or reps who are well known to drive faster and more aggressively, for example and they do more miles.

So whilst it might seem like a key issue to the average petrolhead trying to take country roads at speeds where you notice grip it really isn’t a big driver of casualties.

It's a key driver to anyone who is braking to avoid an accident. It's a key differentiator between wether or not you succeed or fail. And that's not to mention people who aquaplane because they don't know how to drive in the rain.

Actually that's a good example. People aquaplane because they don't know how to drive in rain, BUT if they were on better tyres they'd be less likely to aquaplane in the first place. I've seen accidents caused by people going to fast for the available grip. In that case, they've likely done TWO things that contributed - they bought cheap tyres AND they drove too fast. Did bad tyres cause the accident? Well, technically yes; from a moral/judicial point of view no. But could better tyres have avoided it? Yes.

I sort of see what you're saying Poly, it's only ever going to be a contributing factor and the importance will differ depending on what kind of roads you frequently encounter....but this bit;

When I’ve asked what the difference was between two brands to justify a price difference I was told (on more than one occasion) it was about how long they would last before needing changed again

... is just terribly bad advice and misinformation from a tyre fitter. See literally any comparative tyre test ever. The answer of course is that while budget XianJingYang's whatever will almost certainly be a liability, the mid-tier options will offer considerably more performance (read, safety for road use) for only a small outlay, something like a Hankook for instance.

A tyre will be in unstressed condition in normal motorway driving, but assuming that longer sigh lines will always make a higher performing tyre irrelevant is parallel universe stuff.

This bit:

My gut feel is going from 2.5mm of even a premium tyre to 8mm of budget is still an improvement – am I wrong?

in some situations this will be a wrong assumption. A Michelin has a long service life because it has design features to maintain it's performance right through its wear cycle, amongst all the other things that make it a better tyre. A crap tyre will be crap for its entire service life.

So genuine question why aren’t there “all season” motorcycle tyres?

Apart from the tiny market it would be motorcycle tyre being much more performance orientated are by and large soft compound anyway - 5000 mile life not 50 000 and also being narrower and rounded in profile are less prone to aquaplaning

Poly - I have experience of crap tyres being crap even at normal speeds.  The car in question has front wheel drive and low powered ( R4)  the fronts were some cheapo tyres and only halfway thru their lives.  It understeered at what would seem to be perfectly safe speeds in the wet ie sub 30 mph around town.  decent tyres on it and it no longer understeered.  Yes you might not notice a crap tyre if you drive gently - until you need the extra grip in an emergancy - then you find you have no safety margin and crash.  Longer braking distance in an emergency and less cornering grip.

On folk not checking them. I pointed out to a colleague that her tyres were clearly underinflated.  her reply - Its a lease car, I don't care if it wrecks the tyres!  I was incredulous.  Mind you the same woman ( and she was driving for work) had no high beams and only one dip beam.  Her excuse the  same - its a lease car I get a new one next year.  I was tempted to report her.  this was a two year old car

A crap tyre will be crap for its entire service life.

That's a very good point. Plus, if a 'good' tyre becomes 'crap' at 2.5mm wear, what does a 'crap' tyre become?

I know this is not absolute but if something starts as sub optimal and degrades that has to be a concern Shirley?

My gut feel is going from 2.5mm of even a premium tyre to 8mm of budget is still an improvement – am I wrong?

Nope - not when you think about what tread is actually for -mostly to evacuate water and prevent aquaplane. We'd all be running around on slicks if it wasn't for the rain.

OK so that's a slight over-simplification but that's the crux of it.

If the rubber quality is poor then it performs really bad in dry weather too.

Just because a type is made by Goodyear/Pirelli/Michelin it doesn’t mean it’s better.

True but you have more of fighting chamnce with a known brand unless...

I had pirelli P6000 on a car a few years ago, couldn't wait to get shot of them, very poor wet grip and even capable of involentary wheeelspins in dry conditions, they were a bloody liability.
I think the P6000 is/was thier budget range though? replaced with conti premiums and it was like driving on rails in comparison, I couldn't make them loose composure unless I actually tried too.

Its a lease car, I don’t care if it wrecks the tyres!

This is spot on, it seems to be one of the things that's changed in recent years where drivers just treat their cars like white goods and not something they need to responsibly maintain. This sort of thing really gets my goat as well but that's probably understandable as we're cyclists (mostly) so more likely to be on the unfortunate hard metallic receiving end of this sort of tardiness.

I see a lot of the single headlight brigade round my way too, now definitely a thing. If only we had police about to you know 'police' this sort of thing, surely this should be automatic 6 pointer.

One other great example of first class muppetry is I once observed a local car where they'd obviously punctured and put the space-saver on - obvious as its bright yellow and about 2 inches wide - but then continued to drive around on that for months on end, this on a new Golf probably 30k's worth, but yeah probably leased so who cares...probably most likely at full normal speeds too. Stay safe out there people, its an open asylum.

Nope – not when you think about what tread is actually for -mostly to evacuate water and prevent aquaplane. We’d all be running around on slicks if it wasn’t for the rain.

But don't forget that a tyre at 2.5mm doesn't just have shallower grooves it has less rubber on it, so the contact surface is less compliant and damps vibrations less. I'd hazard a guess that a slick tyre with 8mm of rubber is better than a slick tyre with 2mm rubber.

I’d hazard a guess that a slick tyre with 8mm of rubber is better than a slick tyre with 2mm rubber.

Oh for sure, in the dry maybe... in the wet they will both turn the car into a hovercraft!
A tyres performance is the sum of its components and design, I was just trying to keep the point really simple.

Bicycle tyre, are an interesting example - they can be slick (or much slicker) as they are narrow enough to carve through standing water rather than aquaplaning on the surface.

Like bikes, I don't buy the cheapest option available, but I also don't think you have to buy the most premium option available to get something decent. Mid-range all-season tyres (£100 ish each) have been great for me.

He did say he was always happy to deal with customers like me who order premium tyres for mundane cars as they’re nearly always a pleasure to deal with.

#accidentalpartridge

I see a lot of the single headlight brigade round my way too, now definitely a thing. If only we had police about to you know ‘police’ this sort of thing, surely this should be automatic 6 pointer.

3 points at "best" and more likely a vehicle defect rectification notice unless you fail an attitude test! But yes - and there's plenty of actually bald tyres around too.

I do tend to agree the test should be extended to tyre checks, how to check oil, washer water, and coolant level.

And how to change a wheel.

Most of these things were typically 'dad knowledge' that gets passed to the offspring, but I suspect that's not really the case any more..

Even my late step mum was shocked when my dad insisted she buy 4 new tyres at a cost of about £800... "why should it need new tyres? it's a Mercedes!"

also don’t think you have to buy the most premium option available to get something decent.

Thank fudge for that . An advert for Pirelli Winter 270 SottoZero Serie II 275/40 R20 106W XL came up on this feed at £499 a corner 😲

I do tend to agree the test should be extended to tyre checks, how to check oil, washer water, and coolant level.

I think they are already. The issue is fundamental laziness on the part of most drivers.

I do tend to agree the test should be extended to tyre checks, how to check oil, washer water, and coolant level.

This stuff was added to the test in 2008 -

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-show-me-tell-me-vehicle-safety-questions

sightlines on motorways are intentionally very good, if you are having to do the level of braking where the brand of tyre matters you are most likely driving too fast, too close, or not paying attention.

I assume you've never had someone just pull out without indicating with a ~15mph speed differential.

Also my bus doesn't get driven hard, it's a crappy, gutless MPV but it's heavy. Had to fling the spare on which is a Marshall, it's on the front drivers side and now it understeers like mad when turning left on any dampness. It's terrifying.

It’s terrifying.

Consider what causes fear when driving:

Mainly the unexpected: if an aircraft crashed or even tried to land on a road I was using I think I'd find it worrying. Other people doing things I haven't anticipated raise my pulse. Sometimes road conditions add a mild fear I'll call stress. I had tyres go flat twice on the Circuit of Ireland, nothing to worry about, just adadpt to it and hope it doesn't come off completely before the end of the stage (I'm not so sure the co-driver saw it the same way mind).

But you find a change of tyre on one corner terrifying. And it understeers like mad. Could you fit a dash cam and post some vids of your driving to entertain us?

After two hours of digging I got the car out its snow drifted parking slot this morning. Happily the Michelin Alpins did their funky stuff and no chains were needed.