[Closed] Car fanatics, can you advice?

Bmws and mercs use timing chains.

Some smaller Honda engines use chains as well.

I don't know an engine from my arse but always have wondered about cambelts...

Given the catastrophic damage that occurs when they break, it's always seemed and incredibly weak link to have in the system.

Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber belts for so long?

Are there any other cars from around 2002 that don't have a belt?

Our 2001 Vectra 2.0DTi had a timing chain.

My 1980 Ausin Maxi (1750 HLS, twin carbs!) had a chain.

Most motorbikes (Ducati are the biggest exception) have timing chains

Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber belts for so long?

Cheap, efficiant, easy to change.

Even timing chains need replacing eventually you know, and that aint cheap!

[i]Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber belts for so long?[/i]

they're cheaper, quieter and just as reliable as chains?

My 1980 Ausin Maxi (1750 HLS, twin carbs!) had a chain.

91BHP was pretty decent back then for a family car.

My brother stole it and drove it into a lamppost. LOL

and lighter...
All OEM's are trying to shave grams off every component.

re: the maxi, I think they were twin 1.5's
Do you remember the Allegro? That was available with the same base engine but also a sporty version with the 1.75 SU's. Actually a pretty quick (but thirsty) car. (My father was a manager at BL hence we had every model at some time or another).

My mates had his Almera from new (2001). Hes been told the chain needs updating (they do) and it'll be £1,000. The cars worth 1.5k now.

M3's 'apperently' had a habit of snapping timing chains over 100k (is this true?).

My old mans Mazda 6 has a timing chain, I think it's based on a Ford Mondeo engine so don't know if Mondeos have chains too. I think the Mazda 3 has s chain also.

and lighter...
All OEM's are trying to shave grams off every component.

That's why the stingy muppets at BMW (and Audi) don't even give you a fricking spare wheel, jack or even a wheel wrench!!!

Yey! My dad had one of those - twin 1 1/2 SUs I believe (or were they 1 1/4?)

91BHP was pretty decent back then for a family car.

My brother stole it and drove it into a lamppost. LOL

Yep, twin SUs. When it flooded you could unto the dashpot on the carbs and try again. Mine was the HLS, wooden dash, velour seats, tinted windows, the lot! 😉
Very reliable car, to be fair.

My mates had his Almera from new (2001). Hes been told the chain needs updating (they do) and it'll be £1,000. The cars worth 1.5k now.

M3's 'apperently' had a habit of snapping timing chains over 100k (is this true?).

100,000 miles was the change point for the chain on the Vectra.....

The Prius has a chain. It's nice not to have a £300 bill every few years I must say.

Chains are supposedly noisier than belts and the extra weight hinders performance slightly I think.

deadlydarcy - Member
Given the catastrophic damage that occurs when they break, it's always seemed and incredibly weak link to have in the system.

Only where there is valve/piston interference Shirley?

'can you advice?' 'sedan?'

Is English your first language or are you a recently released Chilean miner?

Mondeos are chains I believe. Some large Honda engines do have chains. My accord has one.

and don't call me Shirley

Mine was the HLS, wooden dash, velour seats, tinted windows, the lot!

My dad's was reliable until it had that fight with the lamp post. Never mind, he got a Ford Capri 1.6GL with a vinyl roof to replace it and I loved The Professionals*... 🙂

*I know it was the 3.0S in the series but hey...

My Ford Fiesta had a camchain, it failed. Wrote off the engine.

Cam belts are fitted for good reasons, they are generally quieter than chains, require no lubrication and are lighter.
Camchains can stretch on high mileage engines leading to noise. Also the tensioners can fail leading to the same result as a failed cambelt.

Basically don't forget scheduled maintenance.

M3's 'apperently' had a habit of snapping timing chains over 100k (is this true?).

This was a bit of an urban myth dreamed up by Munich Legends (a very expensive BMW specialist) regarding the S14 engine in the E30 M3 so they could charge people circa £2000 for changing the timing chain. According to them and many people and magazines who believed it to be true your engine would self distruct at 100,001 miles if you didn't have the work done. I've had 4 E30 M3's, two of which were well over 100k and had no issues.

The chain can get noisy, but this is a result of the tensioner wearing, which is external and easy to change and you can use an uprated item from the later E36 M3 which works better. I've never heard of a chain failing on an M3 and neither has a friend of mine who runs a independant BMW servicing centre. The later E36 and E46 M3's don't seem to have any issues and I'm running one with 126k at the moment with no problems.

boblo, English isn't my first language but such an error (advice instead of advise) is inexcusable anyway. Will you forgive? [b][u]Sedan[/u][/b], on the other hand, is what he drives. Have a chat with Toyota Ireland that they got their terminology wrong, will you?
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Bloody pedantic STW-er, ghrrrrrr....
[off to make an espresso or two]

Yes, my son, you are forgiven. HTH 😀

However, Sadan? Is that a bastardisation of Saddam? Thought he was old news.... 😆

Espresso? Good idea, latte for me please.... And the number of people that say Expresso... Grrrrr.....

Camchains can stretch on high mileage engines

that's why they have a tensioner

Mine has gears ('93 'trol 4.2 GR SGX)

Camchains can stretch on high mileage engines leading to noise.

This was a bit of an urban myth dreamed up by Munich Legends (a very expensive BMW specialist) regarding the S14 engine in the E30 M3 so they could charge people circa £2000 for changing the timing chain. According to them and many people and magazines who believed it to be true your engine would self distruct at 100,001 miles if you didn't have the work done. I've had 4 E30 M3's, two of which were well over 100k and had no issues.

The chain can get noisy, but this is a result of the tensioner wearing, which is external and easy to change and you can use an uprated item from the later E36 M3 which works better. I've never heard of a chain failing on an M3 and neither has a friend of mine who runs a independant BMW servicing centre. The later E36 and E46 M3's don't seem to have any issues and I'm running one with 126k at the moment with no problems.

E46 or E36? Nice whichever it is!

It's VANOS issues that can cause headaches.

Corrected, espresso my saviour!

E46 or E36? Nice whichever it is!

It's VANOS issues that can cause headaches.

It's an E36 Convertible but one of the earlier 3.0 versions that has a single rather than double VANOS. These tend to be more reliable, but saying that, the VANOS on mine was changed at 90k, but I think this was because the previous owner was a BMW technician and the car still had a warranty so it was done as a preventative measure. A VANOS failure isn't as much of a disaster as it used to be as there is a guy that can fix them on an exchange basis for about £600 rather than the £1500+ it used to cost.

Gatchet - better than the 335is then - loads are going pop at rather low mileages. Mostly HPFP issues.

Our 35d unit seems reliable so far - fingers very crossed!

Older model Nissan Primera 2.0 uses chain. The 2.0L SR20 engines are strong and have been around a while quite reliable. 2002- onwards model is a different beast altogether as they became french.

My mates had his Almera from new (2001). Hes been told the chain needs updating (they do) and it'll be £1,000. The cars worth 1.5k now.

1995 Almera, 130,000 on the clock. 3 oil changes in that time, thats all.
That's the kiss of death applied then.

The chain itself would cost more than the car is worth I suspect. Has anyone actually done an unenforced chain change?

Some GM engines hav

e deliberately weak valve actuators (rockers), as sacrificial items in case of cambelt failure.

 

Rover V8's have a timing chain ... first fitted to the rover P5 in 1967 ... even then it was a derivative of a buick engine so goes back before that.

Pros and cons to each I suppose. Belts are lighter and cheaper, very efficient, but more likely to wear to the point of destruction. Chains perhaps stronger, but heavier, and although they'll stretch and so affect timing, less likely to snap completely as a result of plain wear.

Changing a chain in most cases is not necessarily a technically difficult job. the difficult comes from getting to the fekker to be able to change it. There is so much stuff tacked onto the side of an engine bloc these days, it takes hours to get it off and out of the way before you can even see the chain.

Personally, I prefer chains to belts.

All my Saabs had chains - 900, 93 and 95 petrol

Wife's C-Max is also chain.

All my Saabs had chains - 900, 93 and 95 petrol

Yeah, my 1973 Saab 96 had a chain too.

So in summary:

You want to find a small diesel with chain driven cam(s) (chain already changed if at/beyond service limit) but without DMF, DPF, Turbo, EGR and Cat.

That should narrow it down.... 🙂

Well, I'd love to have an option of changing the belt to a chain in my Pug's engine. Would I notice a loss of, say, 5bhp? Would I heck! How about some extra rattle? Radio can be played louder too. Besides, Avensis is so much quieter than my Pug it's unreal.

Some Nissan cars do, my old Pulsar GTI-R did for starters. The chain rattled for a couple of seconds on startup until the pressure for the tensioners reached the required level.

Belts, chains? Pah...

Honda have had it right on their V4 motorbike engines for some time now, gear driven cams are where it's at...

[img] [/img]

Well, that is until they perfect camless valve operation, using solenoids to open and shut the valves instead of a cam removes any weak physical links. Though obviously it would introduce some electrical ones.

Gachet, very interesting to hear about the timing chain thing on the M series Beemers. I'd often wondered if that was a bit of an urban myth, or one perpetuated by those in the industry, as "normal" BMWs with chain driven cams never need the chain replacing... The chain tensioner should be checked every once in a while of course, but no need to replace. Have owned 2 E34 5 series now (a 520i and a marvellous 6speed manual 540i) that were both well past 100k miles when they came into my care, and no engine worries whatsoever.

hairy, if you want a diesel car, that's quiet, reliable and has chain driven cams, find yourself an E34 BMW 525tds. They're getting old now, so finding one in good condition can be tricky, but rest assured the engine will go on loooooong past everything else giving up the ghost on that car, and the E34 5 series is reckoned to be the best built and most reliable BMW ever. My mate test drove one the other week, was tatty as hell and really hadn't been looked after, the owner wanted 350 quid for it, but sadly it would have needed that spending again just to get through its MOT as it had 2 knackered shocks and the brakes were dodgy. Engine was fine though, with just coming up to 200k on the clock!

The only issue is as long as I'm in Eire the local road tax laws make it prohibitively expensive. I'm paying E614 annually for a 1905cc engined car, 2.5l would make it over a grand.
Besides, as crap a driver as I am, I prefer FWD cars (ok, abuse me then).

TDi Landrovers have a belt and some had a reputation for going, but there was fix for the underlying problem and as long as you change them regularly [around 60,000] they are no trouble, I've got 220,000 on one and 130,00 on another and both are fine. Not the cheapest maintenance job, as it takes some work to get at it, but much cheaper than not doing it.

One firm made an after market gear drive, but it had a very bad reputation. In fairness to Honda, if they've done it they've probably got it right.

Chains are inherently stronger, but can still snap, I've known one go, but it was pushrod engine, the rods bent and saved a lot of damage elsewhere. On a modern OHC engine with angled valves it could have been terminal.

Funny how people want chains in their engines, and rubber belts on their bikes

Swampboy :
It was early 300Tdi engines which had the belt problem due to a slightly mis-aligned belt pully which iirc could wear at the edges of the belt to the point of failure. It was fairly quickly fixed with a new pulley design which was a retrofit as well.

The timing gears were Zeus Gearing IIRC. I remember there being issues with them ... i think down to vibration and resonance and also being a lot noisier once installed. Looking a the honda picture, the gears are spoked which may help in vibration damping compared to the Zeus ones which i half remember being solid discs. WAS a good number of years ago though since I was into that aspect of landies.

u

I don't want a belt on my bike, chain is the new future!

just to say it again, mondeo tdci
also quite a probability that the gf's 1.0 3cyl corsa is a chain too

Solenoid valves ftw. Coupled with variable compression ratio, that'll be the engine of the future. You'll be able to vary the displacement on the fly. Cruising? 600cc engine flat out. Need power? 2.5l on tap.

Given the catastrophic damage that occurs
when they break , it ' s always seemed and
incredibly weak link to have in the system .
Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber
belts for so long ?

Belts, chains? Pah...

Honda have had it right on their V4 motorbike engines for some time now, gear driven cams are where it's at...
<snip>
hairy, if you want a diesel car, that's quiet, reliable and has chain driven cams, find yourself an E34 BMW 525tds.
<snip>

Hondas V4 gear driven cam engine was developed for the VFR750 on the back of the 'great chocolate cam' controvesey (late '80's). Apparently, they lost money on every one they sold due to the high R&D costs. I had one, it was my first 'big bike' - fantastic....

I also had the 2.5tds in an Omega. Had it from new and put 150k miles on it in 2.5 years.... No issues at all... Just disks and othe wear parts. Once I ran it on the Autobhan at maximum for a full tank of juice - it lapped it up (unlike my front seat passenger 🙂 ) Trouble is, they were adopted by the Taxi community and are all interstellar mileages now.

My VW transporter T5 also has a chain. Not such a short list then!

That's why the stingy muppets at BMW (and Audi) don't even give you a fricking spare wheel, jack or even a wheel wrench!!!

I suspect that's because most of the owners wouldn't know what to do with one even if they gave them one.....

No point adding a jack or wrench if there's no spare, is there? And don't most BMWs come with run flats? Seems reasonable.

I suspect that's because most of the owners wouldn't know what to do with one even if they gave them one.....

It's because most come with runflat tyres. Which are utter sh1te. Changed mine ASAP and now have a 12v compressor and tyre weld. But if I get a blow out, I'll need to call a breakdown truck. Not ideal. No space for a spare, a jack or even a wheel wrench.

Why are BMW drivers any less likely to be able to change a wheel BTW? Are they all disabled or something?

Cos they're all ****s, Mat 😉

My local tyre dealer is run by ****s but I bet they can all change a wheel... 😉

It's fascinating the way people try and make themselves feel better about life through cars.

1) Call Boxsters and Caymans "poor man's Porsches" (I don't know many poor people that can afford £40k+ on a 2 seat car)
2) Call various decent sports car "hairdressers cars"
3) Brand all BMW/Audi/Merc drivers as rude and incapable of doing anything practical like changing a wheel. Smug in the knowledge that he can easily change a wheel on his insert name of boring car
4) Mock anything vaguely prestige from big SUVs to fast Mercs on the lamest of grounds. "Oooh I wouldn't be seen dead in an SL65 Merc - it has less cupholders than my insert name of boring car
5) Assume all BMW/Audi/Merc drivers actually have no interest in cars and only bought one to try and look well off.
6) Pull out the old "oh those BMWs/Audis/Merc are useless in the snow, I'm much better off in my insert name of boring car

And many more examples.

It's fascinating the way people try and make themselves feel better about life through cars.

Isn't that what you do all the time? You insult people's cars even when the argument has nothing to do with cars!

Less caffeine for Surf-Mat 😆

It dunt bother me what people think about the things I drive/ride... If they want to generalise and leap to silly conclusions, they can do so in their own little bubble of ignorance 😉

I'd still love to walk into a really s****y dealers in my old gardening clobber with the intent of a major cash purchase.... just to see the reaction... Interestingly, I didn't buy a BM recently as I thought the dealer was a total wan..err plonker. The final straw came as I sat there chatting away and a courier came in to swap the salesmans personal mobile phone. He chose to do this rather than 'harvest' my (considerable) commission - silly boy. I got up and walked out. That was a £50k+ sale....

Please find a [b]single [/b]example of me insulting anything other than overpriced Saabs, Alfas and overrated and underpriced Audis? 😉

You are a prime example of one who tries to make himself feel better about his Prius and Passat by having random pops at others - ooh does it need to be that fast, ooh its got high emissions, ooh it does't give ten quid to charity every time you fill it up, etc, etc.

Here we go....

Surf-Mat and Molgrips earlier in their rendition of 'Women in Love'

[IMG] [/IMG]

As usual, he started it.

What usually happens is that we have a row and then you start using 'Prius driver' or 'Passat driver' as an epithet.

You are a prime example of one who tries to make himself feel better about his Prius and Passat by.. *snip*

That makes no sense. I didn't inherit those cars, I chose them. It's precisely BECAUSE I feel that emissions are important that I bought a Prius.

Are you suggesting that deep down I regret my purchase but I am in denial about it?

No not at all. But you do like to shoot others down for rather bizarre reasons.

I sometimes think your perfect car would be a supercharged V8 Range Rover but you're not allowed one 😉

I don't mean to shoot people down. I keep bringing up this stuff about emissions and consumption because I think it's important, and people ought not forget it. Likewise road safety.

It's true that I love the mechanics of cars, and I love to drive fast too. But I also love cruising in comfort.

I would love a sporty car but personally I can't justify high emissions just for my enjoyment, unfortunately. If I were rich enough I'd consider something sporty but I'm unlikely to go for a drive for the sake of it, so then it becomes a utility car and is again unjustifiable.

Best thing would be a car for the track and to race it regularly but I only have time for so many hobbies.

If I DIDN'T care about emissions at all, I'd get some kind of Jag or Merc - fast but comfy and stylish.

And with that, I'm off for a ride in the forest that surrounds my workplace :p

Sorry about this.... I for one, could not give a fkuc about emmissions but I do care about fool economy as I pay for it directly...

Look around you, look at the amount of crap being produced around the World and your little squirt of C02 from your 10k miles per year is utterly irrelevant.

Yes we need to start somewhere, yes every journey starts with a single step but my impact is the same as the flea shagging the elephant and I'll expend zero energy worrying about it.

There now 👿

molgrips, why don't you then get a RR as they plant trees to offset your car's emissions? Or are you waiting for an electric motor-driven Jag?

Cos I could pay for carbon offsetting anyway via one of the many independent companies. Plus planting trees in temperate latitudes doesn't help either.

Yes we need to start somewhere, yes every journey starts with a single step but my impact is the same as the flea shagging the elephant and I'll expend zero energy worrying about it.

So you're acknowledging every little helps, and we all need to do something, then ignoring your own wisdom in the same sentence 🙂

Our Defender comes under the offset 10k miles scheme. Do a fair few trees have been planted because of it.

Mol - until you stop flying, driving, are self sustainable and ride wooden bikes made from your own back yard then you really cannot preach about being green.

molgrips - Member
So you're acknowledging every little helps, and we all need to do something, then ignoring your own wisdom in the same sentence

Yes because I recognise the futility of my actions in the face of overwhelming odds.... 🙁

It's not preaching. And these things are pretty much facts. Just because I fly and drive does not make them any less true.

It's got nothing to do with moral relativism, it's got to do with CO2. End of.

If I DIDN'T care about emissions at all, I'd get some kind of Jag or Merc - fast but comfy and stylish.

Actually, a lot of even the largest Jaguar and Mercedes models are pretty emissions friendly. You can have your cake AND eat it, at least to a reasonable degree. An S320CDI will do 35mpg easily, which isn't great per se, but for a big old bruiser is very acceptable.

I had a Jaguar XJ TD loaner last year which averaged 38mpg in the time I had it (only about a week). The new model's a lot better, apparently.

And I tried a Prius which, if I'm honest, I just didn't like. Then again, I've yet to find a Toyota (Lexus included) that I warmed to.

Moral relavatism?!! That's worse than a word I saw last week - ideation!

So if it has to do with C02, sell your Passat, don't fly, grow your own food and insulate your house then stick up a big wind turbine.

I'm almost certain your CO2 footprint is MUCH worse than mine or many others here. You commute a long way, you use hotels that are dreadful on resource use, you fly, you have two cars, etc, etc.

If you're going to single out every "evil" person that has a high emitting car (take note - many will have an OLD high emission car that has immediately made them qualify as using far less emissions than anyone with a newish car, whatever the g/km) while continuing to try and justify your own high emissions activities then you are being a complete hypocrite.

We work from home, fly extremely rarely, all veg sourced locally, most meat sourced locally, we work from home, we drive less than 10k miles a year, etc, etc - others here will be far "better."

So stop preaching - you apparently like cars so enjoy them for what they are, be they a Prius or an AMG Merc.

I'm almost certain your CO2 footprint is MUCH worse than mine or many others here

It is, yes, I completely agree.

How does that change your obligations tho or anyone else's?

I believe that I (and you) live in a free country. Therefore we have no obligations, apart from to pay taxes.

Hairychested - Your up skerries way aren't you (northside anyways as I recall), where did you go for a spin? Wicklow/Dubs mountains or up to carlingford?

Therefore we have no obligations

Oh but we do! We have moral obligations.

Do you have a list of these then?

I have never seen it if there is one.

I can give you a few off the top of my head:

Be nice to each other
Don't damage other people's stuff (this is where the CO2 thing comes in)
Don't upset other people
Don't endanger other people
Look after things that everyone has to use
Be fair
Try and be a good person

😆 😆 😆

I can't believe a car thread has ended up with me reading about John Stewart Mill.