[Closed] Car crash. Who's at fault?

B as they crossed the path of A.

A bit of both really - but you should never assume someone is doing something based on their indicator - I was taught that very early on in my lessons.

Car b.

Never pull out assuming the indicator is correct.

A mate of mine actually did this. He was the one that pulled out. It was his fault.
The main road actually had a small slip road area and the car had indicated, moved partly into it, then pulled back out again.

Which one are you then OP?

Surely b would check to see if a was slowing for the turn, and if the speed was such that the turn wasn't going to happen, then b wouldn't pull out regardless of the indicator.

I am neither, but my mom is car a.

I find these days you'd be better off assuming when their indicator isn't on that they'll be turning.

Depends what you mean by 'at fault', but if you're driving / riding defensively, you never assume someone's indicator is a% reliable, erm, indication of what they're going to do. It doesn't really matter whether you're technically in the right or not, you've got mangled bodywork or worse. No idea what an insurance adjudication would decide, but you'd have to show that the oncoming car's indicator was on, which could boil down to a question of which driver you believe.

But never trust anyone is a good start point ime...

Basically, as my driving instructor told me in 1987, all a flashing indicator proves is that the bulb is working.....

Who's at fault? Car a for indicating wrongly ? Or car b for not waiting for the car to turn?

It would be 50/50, happened to me about 15 years ago, car indicating, I pulled out, they went straight into the side of me. they had slowed to turn but then decided against it.

B is at fault.

No, I don't think it's 50/50. I was always taught to ignore indicators and wait until they've committed to the manoeuvre before pulling out. Car B is at fault.

No, I don't think it's 50/50.

I'm only going by personal experience, in my case it was 50/50. It was a long time ago so can't remember the details but maybe the other driver admitted fault.

B.

I know I don't risk stuff like that since I've had a few loud cars which mean I occasionally leave an indicator going without realising it. I do make a conscious effort to do it as little as possible now though.

Obv b

Indicators don't mean anything

What the highway code says and what the insurance companies decide are often not the same. 50 / 50 if there is any doubt and their are no independent witnesses.

Car B is 100% at fault, they pulled out in front of another vehicle. End of story.

Indicators are an irrelevance, the only significance they have is in demonstrating that the bulb works. This is driving lessons day 1 stuff, indicators give you a clue as to what someone might do but you should never rely on them.

My answer is purely from an insurance perspective, which I presume is why the op was asking the question.

One of the difficulties now is also that because everyone believes that they know best and that speed limits don't apply to them, the time between seeing an approaching car when attempting to join from a side road requires very aggressive driving. If people were restricted in speed then it'd reduce the numbers of both collisions and close calls/ near misses.

My answer is purely from an insurance perspective

Your answer was based on you being very lucky indeed. I can only assume that the other driver must've admitted liability.

Having worked on both the claimant side and now the defendant side for RTA claims, the classic case law always quoted is Wadsworth v Gillespie (1978) which is 2/3rds / 1/3rd split liability with the party proceeding along the main road getting 2/3rds (lose 1/3rd for misleading signal).

But this is an old-ish bit of case law and you may hear Soils Ltd v Bromwich (1998) or Davis v Swinwood (2002) quoted now.

Soils Ltd was 100% to the driver on the main road, as they did indicate left but gave evidence to confirm that they were pulling up to park on the main road just after junction.

Davis v Swinwood again 100% in person on main roads favour.

Basically the Courts these days seem to take the view that even though signal is mis-leading it should not be relied upon.

So if you were the one on the main road and they start offering 2/3 to 1/3 quote the more modern cases above. If you're the pulling out, try and fight for one third in your favour.

Car B never assume, you should wait until it is clear to pull out.

^ i'd say you were very fortunate.
edit - in response to Gary's 50/50.

Your answer was based on you being very lucky indeed. I can only assume that the other driver must've admitted liability.

I wouldn't call it lucky, cost me the same if it was 50/50 or 100% my fault. And as I said above other driver may have admitted liability.

Nearly happened to me on a roundabout when a bus indicated to go off but didn't - luckily it stopped as I pulled out as doubt I'd have got anywhere with insurance.

Happened to my mum and dad at the weekend; dad's indicator didn't cancel after coming off a roundabout (and he didn't notice it hadn't), car waiting at side road pulled out assuming he was turning left when he wasn't. Will see what insurance have to say!

100 % the car pulling out and on a Driving Test a candidate would be faulted if they started to emerge before a vehicle had physically started turning in or obviously slowing down enough to make it obvious they were turning in.

Like has been said, car a could be pulling up after the junction.

Another thing is pulling out if a Van or Truck is turning in. I recommend waiting till they can see 100 % that it is clear behind the van / truck in case there is a small car or motorbike tailgating. Not too bad with cars turning in as you can see following traffic clearer.

Like has been said, car a could be pulling up after the junction.

Almost happened to me once, dude indicating left as coming up to a very popular fast food takeaway, me waiting to pull out, another driver on the other side of the road has stopped to let me out.

Dude indicating left along the whole way of the road. He even slows down a little. Seems obvious to everyone that he is about to pull into the carpark. I almost, almost pull out. Almost. I started to move even. I'm not sure what stopped me but something made me slam my brakes on JUST as he cruised past the the parking lot and the front of my car. Very scary.

Obviously didn't happen round here. No-one uses indictators, not even incorrectly.

Indicating or the lack thereof is irrelevant.....ask any Beemer driver.

I will concede however that insurance companies are a law unto themselves.

I was once turning left on a roundabout in the left lane (2 lane exit), the car in the right hand lane cut the corner and collected us both into the curb and insurance wanted to go 50/50 despite me being at no fault what so ever.

B

B

My dad hardly ever indicates and it really gets to me. I indicate everywhere where it's appropriate (no, not around tight corners like a worrying amount of people do). Doing it automatically means I don't have to think to do it and weigh up whether it's worth doing or not. It means I can concentrate on everything else that little bit more.

B is more at fault.

B should have waited a bit longer to be absolutely sure.

I have seen this many times where drivers forgot to switch off their indicator. 😯

Both.

I think scud's written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb's working.

Pierre - Member
I think scud's written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb's working.

Well i'm glad someone read it......

Or Winter v Cotton, 1984.
Person pulling out was entitled to believe approaching vehicle was turning in (driving slowly and indicators on).
But Scud's cases are more recent.

scud - Member

Pierre - Member
I think scud's written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb's working.

Well i'm glad someone read it......

In the far east or SE Asia, 10 tonne trucks or the likes have the right of ways regardless. No point having your love ones arguing for you in court ... 😮

This means indicating to pull into the drive is quite late, but I reckon that's the lesser of 2 evils.

And also correct. Bit like on roundabouts where you indicate to come off as soon as you're past the penultimate exit but not before, so as early as possible without causing confusion.

Car pulling out has a duty of care not to drive into the other vehicle regardless of some blinky lights.

Car B is 100% at fault, they pulled out in front of another vehicle. End of story.

Indeed....clearly driver A is a numpty, but that does not remove the fact that you should never pull out unless its clear to do so. Always assume the other driver is a numpty!

Car 'b' is at fault.
The driver of car 'b' should have remained stationary and waited for car 'a' to complete it's manoeuvre.

Case closed!

car B, indicators not cancelling is a pretty common occurrence, don't take them as a guarantee someone is turning

IME the insurance companies will go 50/50.

About 7 years ago I was driving along a main road (about 20 in a 30 limit, traffic was busy) when a van pulled out from a road on the left, we collided my front left to his front right corners.

He swore blind that I was indicating. I know I wasn't.

Insurance co's went knock for knock.

I indicate everywhere where it's appropriate (no, not around tight corners like a worrying amount of people do). Doing it automatically means I don't have to think to do it and weigh up whether it's worth doing or not.

Precisely why the default IAM position is to not indicate. You should be thinking about it, it shouldn't be automatic. 💡
I think this has trickled down to basic teaching as well, though I've been out the loop for a couple of years.

Car B at fault.
Car A's still an arsehole.

Car A's still an arsehole.

I prefer to call her mom

Precisely why the default IAM position is to not indicate.

Personally, I think this is a really stupid idea.

Car A is hardly an 'arsehole' - bit harsh that (especially as it's the OP's Mum!). Good luck OP :).
Scud's response sounds spot on to me but my personal experience of insurance companies is that knock for knock is often the default position rather than investing resource into investigating/proving blame.
Been teaching my eldest to drive and whilst he knows not to proceed based on an indicator alone, his instructor has told him not to indicate if there's no traffic to indicate to. Whilst I'm ok with this I wonder if that makes it more likely some folk forget to indicate when needed?

Whilst I'm ok with this I wonder if that makes it more likely some folk forget to indicate when needed?

Nope. I only indicate when needed. For example, if at a junction with cars behind me but a clear road to pull onto I don't indicate. What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

I prefer to call her mom

Well I hope you will now be phoning her up and telling her she is an arsehole as the internet said so.

I have seen this many times where drivers forgot to switch off their indicator.

Especially on a motorbike. Car B should have waited for car A to commit. Irrespective of blame, it would have prevented an accident for the sake of a few seconds.

What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

Maybe to a cyclist who has crept into your blindspot while you're busy scanning for a gap in the traffic?

his instructor has told him not to indicate if there's no traffic to indicate to. Whilst I'm ok with this I wonder if that makes it more likely some folk forget to indicate when needed?

On my driving lessons I was taught to always indicate, as it's better to indicate when there's no-one to see it than not indicate when there is. Plus I suppose, it embeds it into 'muscle memory'. Later on an advanced lesson I was taught this, to not bother if there's no-one to see it. I guess the 'advanced' method is trickling down into standard advice.

I'm not entirely sure which is better. I suppose arguably if there's no-one else around then it doesn't matter all that much either way.

I'm not entirely sure which is better. I suppose arguably if there's no-one else around then it doesn't matter all that much either way.

Better to get into the habit of indicating, then, surely? Because it's quite possible that someone might turn up or there might be someone you haven't considered.

kerley - Member
Nope. I only indicate when needed. What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

That assumes your decision to not indicate is based on you having perfect assessment of who might benefit from knowing. Just seems safer to indicate and avoid that risk on most occasions (especially learners, good habits and all).

Talking to a police traffic officer a few years ago and he described the same thing as malicious indication, to provoke or cause a crash for cash, always wait till youre sure theyre turning.

GlennQuagmire - Member

Personally, I think this is a really stupid idea.

That's the whole point; you think about it. You look to see who would or wouldn't benefit from your indication.

Apologies to the OP's Mum.
For some reason I got mixed up with another thread (another forum) where car A slowed and indicated to turn and then aborted last minute, as opposed to accidentally leaving the indicator on.

Car should have a working audible or visual "tell tale" to pass MOT.

IME the insurance companies will go 50/50.

About 7 years ago I was driving along a main road (about 20 in a 30 limit, traffic was busy) when a van pulled out from a road on the left, we collided my front left to his front right corners.

He swore blind that I was indicating. I know I wasn't.

Insurance co's went knock for knock.

Exactly the same as my situation.

I wouldn't have said the other driver was an arsehole, they made a mistake, as the OP's mum did. Calling someone's mum an arsehole is a bit off.

I wonder what the consensus would be if someone on a bicycle was riding along with their left arm stuck out and the driver exiting the side road pulled in front of them. Same opinion I guess?

Better to get into the habit of indicating, then, surely?

Better to always think about it, and then indicate as long as it will not mislead.
I personally think the IAM stance is a bit arrogant: I think you are much less likely to misleadingly indicate by accident than you are to miss someone who would benefit (could be a ped or cyclist hiding).

Habit is a naughty word when it comes to driving. 🙂

kerley - Member

What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

So we can plan to go in the other direction. 🙂

I can think of one junction near to me where I would change my positioning in the event of an emergency services vehicle approaching from the rear, depending on the indications of the vehicles in front.

Insurance co's went knock for knock.

FWIW this isn't the correct term. Knock for knock is how insurance companies deal with payment of claims and nothing to do with liability.

There are 2 or 3 things that could explain the indicator other than them turning into the road you are in.

Changing lane.
Pulling in or turning in shortly after junction.
Forgetting to cancel indicator (unlikely to apply to a bike!)

So yes, still the same if it's a bike giving a hand signal. Don't turn until you're sure there's space to join the road you're turning onto.

Those that have gone knock for knock seem to have been done over (of course if the vehicle was slowing and starting the manoeuvre, then changed their mind, that is slightly different and explains the differences in case law and possibly the knock for knocks for people on here).

I often don't signal so much on the bike (particularly round roundabouts - I won't signal the whole way around) as I may need to brake or take other evasive action which is tricky with one hand off the bars.

You have a lot more scope on a bike to indicate your intentions by using road positioning/body language et cetera.

What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

Well, normally one slows down to turn left off a road, so you'd at least be providing a warning of that if you indicated.

For the effort involved in indicating, I tend to do it all the time, when overtaking bikes for instance....a lot don't!

FWIW this isn't the correct term. Knock for knock is how insurance companies deal with payment of claims and nothing to do with liability.

Knock for knock is when 2 parties agree to deal with their own damage, so each party pays for their cars damage.

An insurer, if they agree 50/50, will pay half of the other persons claim. So if your claim is worth £100 and the third party claim is £1000, your insurer is paying £500 out.

That's the whole point; you think about it. You look to see who would or wouldn't benefit from your indication.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - but why not just indicate anyway, *just* in case you've missed something. Belt and braces and all that.

While I indicate as my default, there are occasions when the action I've taken hasn't resulted in the indicator automatically turning off, so I've driven on with it still operating, and I never, ever take it as read that a car with its indicator on is actually going to make the manoeuvre that's being indicated, for the same reason. If I'm sitting at a junction onto another road, with a car coming towards me from either direction, unless they're some distance away I never pull out until they actually start to turn.

[quote=scud ]Well i'm glad someone read it......

I even went as far as looking up the cases, and found that Davis v Swinwood was actually 2003 😉

B

The indicator is simply showing the bulb works.

Well, normally one slows down to turn left off a road, so you'd at least be providing a warning of that if you indicated

You seem to have missed the key point before that around pulling out of a junction. I would indicate if turning left off of a road, I would indicate when changing lanes etc,. etc,. but I won't always indicate if their is no point to indicating

The amount of times I would have been driven into if I believed that everyone was going to do what their indicators were indicating.

People parking just after a junction. People going all the way round a roundabout. People not realising their indicators are on etc etc

[I]there are occasions when the action I've taken hasn't resulted in the indicator automatically turning off, so I've driven on with it still operating, and I never, ever take it as read that a car with its indicator on is actually going to make the manoeuvre that's being indicated, for the same reason.[/I]

It always amazes me how people manage to leave their indicators on. It can quite easily be heard going tick-tock-tick-tock as you're driving along, as well as there being a flashing light on the dashboard to make you aware of it in case you're a bit deaf. And why for heavens sake expect it to always turn off automatically? it is possible to move your finger about half an inch to make sure that the stalk centres itself and switches off the indicator after you've turned.

Some people are a bit deaf (and it's not that loud in some cars and some people have the stereo on or wind noise from open windows), some people are paying more attention to the important stuff going on outside their car than their dash which is mostly irrelevant (for those experienced enough not to need to check the speedo every 10s to maintain a steady speed). In most cars if you stick your finger out to "cancel" and it already has then you'll indicate the opposite direction.

I presume you're a perfect driver, but like most I'm not and it's easily done - I can certainly remember recently leaving one on for a while.