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If car a is driving up a street and car b is in a side street waiting to turn right.
Car a is driving up the street indicating left so car b assumes they are turning left.
Car b pulls out and hits car a who hasn't turned left because they had their indicator on by accident.
Who's at fault? Car a for indicating wrongly ? Or car b for not waiting for the car to turn?
B as they crossed the path of A.
A bit of both really - but you should never assume someone is doing something based on their indicator - I was taught that very early on in my lessons.
Car b.
Never pull out assuming the indicator is correct.
A mate of mine actually did this. He was the one that pulled out. It was his fault.
The main road actually had a small slip road area and the car had indicated, moved partly into it, then pulled back out again.
Which one are you then OP?
Surely b would check to see if a was slowing for the turn, and if the speed was such that the turn wasn't going to happen, then b wouldn't pull out regardless of the indicator.
I am neither, but my mom is car a.
I find these days you'd be better off assuming when their indicator isn't on that they'll be turning.
Depends what you mean by 'at fault', but if you're driving / riding defensively, you never assume someone's indicator is a% reliable, erm, indication of what they're going to do. It doesn't really matter whether you're technically in the right or not, you've got mangled bodywork or worse. No idea what an insurance adjudication would decide, but you'd have to show that the oncoming car's indicator was on, which could boil down to a question of which driver you believe.
But never trust anyone is a good start point ime...
Basically, as my driving instructor told me in 1987, all a flashing indicator proves is that the bulb is working.....
Who's at fault? Car a for indicating wrongly ? Or car b for not waiting for the car to turn?
It would be 50/50, happened to me about 15 years ago, car indicating, I pulled out, they went straight into the side of me. they had slowed to turn but then decided against it.
B is at fault.
No, I don't think it's 50/50. I was always taught to ignore indicators and wait until they've committed to the manoeuvre before pulling out. Car B is at fault.
No, I don't think it's 50/50.
I'm only going by personal experience, in my case it was 50/50. It was a long time ago so can't remember the details but maybe the other driver admitted fault.
B.
I know I don't risk stuff like that since I've had a few loud cars which mean I occasionally leave an indicator going without realising it. I do make a conscious effort to do it as little as possible now though.
Obv b
Indicators don't mean anything
What the highway code says and what the insurance companies decide are often not the same. 50 / 50 if there is any doubt and their are no independent witnesses.
Car B is 100% at fault, they pulled out in front of another vehicle. End of story.
Indicators are an irrelevance, the only significance they have is in demonstrating that the bulb works. This is driving lessons day 1 stuff, indicators give you a clue as to what someone might do but you should never rely on them.
My answer is purely from an insurance perspective, which I presume is why the op was asking the question.
One of the difficulties now is also that because everyone believes that they know best and that speed limits don't apply to them, the time between seeing an approaching car when attempting to join from a side road requires very aggressive driving. If people were restricted in speed then it'd reduce the numbers of both collisions and close calls/ near misses.
My answer is purely from an insurance perspective
Your answer was based on you being very lucky indeed. I can only assume that the other driver must've admitted liability.
Having worked on both the claimant side and now the defendant side for RTA claims, the classic case law always quoted is Wadsworth v Gillespie (1978) which is 2/3rds / 1/3rd split liability with the party proceeding along the main road getting 2/3rds (lose 1/3rd for misleading signal).
But this is an old-ish bit of case law and you may hear Soils Ltd v Bromwich (1998) or Davis v Swinwood (2002) quoted now.
Soils Ltd was 100% to the driver on the main road, as they did indicate left but gave evidence to confirm that they were pulling up to park on the main road just after junction.
Davis v Swinwood again 100% in person on main roads favour.
Basically the Courts these days seem to take the view that even though signal is mis-leading it should not be relied upon.
So if you were the one on the main road and they start offering 2/3 to 1/3 quote the more modern cases above. If you're the pulling out, try and fight for one third in your favour.
Car B never assume, you should wait until it is clear to pull out.
^ i'd say you were very fortunate.
edit - in response to Gary's 50/50.
Your answer was based on you being very lucky indeed. I can only assume that the other driver must've admitted liability.
I wouldn't call it lucky, cost me the same if it was 50/50 or 100% my fault. And as I said above other driver may have admitted liability.
Nearly happened to me on a roundabout when a bus indicated to go off but didn't - luckily it stopped as I pulled out as doubt I'd have got anywhere with insurance.
Happened to my mum and dad at the weekend; dad's indicator didn't cancel after coming off a roundabout (and he didn't notice it hadn't), car waiting at side road pulled out assuming he was turning left when he wasn't. Will see what insurance have to say!
100 % the car pulling out and on a Driving Test a candidate would be faulted if they started to emerge before a vehicle had physically started turning in or obviously slowing down enough to make it obvious they were turning in.
Like has been said, car a could be pulling up after the junction.
Another thing is pulling out if a Van or Truck is turning in. I recommend waiting till they can see 100 % that it is clear behind the van / truck in case there is a small car or motorbike tailgating. Not too bad with cars turning in as you can see following traffic clearer.
Our driveway is very close to a junction. I'm out with the daughter sometimes as she's learning to drive, so my instruction is to not to start indicating until you are level with the junction or are absolutely sure nothing is coming out of it exactly to avoid the OP's situation. This means indicating to pull into the drive is quite late, but I reckon that's the lesser of 2 evils.Like has been said, car a could be pulling up after the junction.
Almost happened to me once, dude indicating left as coming up to a very popular fast food takeaway, me waiting to pull out, another driver on the other side of the road has stopped to let me out.
Dude indicating left along the whole way of the road. He even slows down a little. Seems obvious to everyone that he is about to pull into the carpark. I almost, almost pull out. Almost. I started to move even. I'm not sure what stopped me but something made me slam my brakes on JUST as he cruised past the the parking lot and the front of my car. Very scary.
Obviously didn't happen round here. No-one uses indictators, not even incorrectly.
Indicating or the lack thereof is irrelevant.....ask any Beemer driver.
I will concede however that insurance companies are a law unto themselves.
I was once turning left on a roundabout in the left lane (2 lane exit), the car in the right hand lane cut the corner and collected us both into the curb and insurance wanted to go 50/50 despite me being at no fault what so ever.
B
B
My dad hardly ever indicates and it really gets to me. I indicate everywhere where it's appropriate (no, not around tight corners like a worrying amount of people do). Doing it automatically means I don't have to think to do it and weigh up whether it's worth doing or not. It means I can concentrate on everything else that little bit more.
B is more at fault.
B should have waited a bit longer to be absolutely sure.
I have seen this many times where drivers forgot to switch off their indicator. 😯
Both.
I think scud's written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb's working.
Pierre - Member
I think scud's written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb's working.
Well i'm glad someone read it......
Or Winter v Cotton, 1984.
Person pulling out was entitled to believe approaching vehicle was turning in (driving slowly and indicators on).
But Scud's cases are more recent.
scud - Member
Pierre - Member
I think scud's written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb's working.
Well i'm glad someone read it......
I read it after giving my answer ... 😆
In the far east or SE Asia, 10 tonne trucks or the likes have the right of ways regardless. No point having your love ones arguing for you in court ... 😮
This means indicating to pull into the drive is quite late, but I reckon that's the lesser of 2 evils.
And also correct. Bit like on roundabouts where you indicate to come off as soon as you're past the penultimate exit but not before, so as early as possible without causing confusion.
Car pulling out has a duty of care not to drive into the other vehicle regardless of some blinky lights.
Car B is 100% at fault, they pulled out in front of another vehicle. End of story.
Indeed....clearly driver A is a numpty, but that does not remove the fact that you should never pull out unless its clear to do so. Always assume the other driver is a numpty!