[Closed] Capitalism, who agree's with the system or farce, who doesn't?

popstar I love stories! tell us what it was like, what happend when the economists / democracy arrived, looked like a complete cluster ****

What was it like?

Bit of [s]rivalry & competition[/s] cooperation between teams, corporations or nations is an excellent way to motivate people.

Equally true.

1) The people who are involved in it should share in the profits and benefits, for example the money that a company earns, each individual should be paid based on how much they earn the company. That way you have a motivated work force.

If an employee comes up with an idea to make the company more efficient and profitable without detrimentally effecting the service, they should be paid a percentage of the profits gained from the procedures, practices or idea's.

2) Those of us that buy products or services should be looking to only deal with companies that show us where the money is going, if companies invest the money they make in the lives of the people involved we should support them, if not we should simply deny them our custom.

3) We need to invest a percentage of our races resources into effective management of all of our races resources. We need to ensure that everything is done as efficiently as possible and that we get the most out of every endevour.

This cannot happen under normal capitalism,

however something must be done, as our situation is growing more dire by the day. The climate is changing, we have no idea why

We are seeing more and more unsettled weather conditions, even here in the UK, what will it take for all of us to wake up

Not much of an argument to say there isn't any workable model, the US and the UK have just spent 50 years making sure that no other economy could compete with them.

That's the beauty of capitalism and the danger, starve off other countries of resources and then sell them stuff from your economy that is stronger and has more money for research and development.

The only problem is china, the wild card that has been introduced to the game, see how far capitalism gets you, when you can't compete and the system you've spent 50 years manipulating and incorporating into ever part of our way of life, is no longer under your control.

No other system has been allowed to work, the capitalist have made sure of it, let's see how they deal with china or more accurately, let's see how china deals with the capitalists.

Capitalism my ass!

Fueled - Member

1) The people who are involved in it should share in the profits and benefits, for example the money that a company earns, each individual should be paid based on how much they earn the company. That way you have a motivated work force.
Erm... I'm fairly sure that even the most capitalistically evil corporations in the world pay their staff. They even pay more to those staff doing more difficult and demanding jobs.

Erm, let me clarify that for you, the amount that they earn the company should determine thier wages 😯 is that clear enough ❓

Erm, let me clarify that for you, the amount that they earn the company should determine thier wages is that clear enough

She should be paid as much as she can be, as long as she agrees to do as much work and the best work she can do.

however something must be done, as our situation is growing more dire by the day. The climate is changing, we have no idea why

We are seeing more and more unsettled weather conditions, even here in the UK, what will it take for all of us to wake up

Sorry, you've lost me.

Under capitalism we concentrate on the aquisition of wealth to the exclusion of everything else including the environment and quality of life. How can that be logical?

Under capitalism we concentrate on the aquisition of wealth to the exclusion of everything else including the environment and quality of life

Not entirely true. Its not a deliberate act, its a failure of markets when externalities are not taken into account in the market. All it takes is a method applying a market to, say, air quality or water quality and capitalism could be used to enhance the environment. The failure to do so is not capitalism, but political will.

[i]She should be paid as much as she can be, as long as she agrees to do as much work and the best work she can do.[/i] = "I don't know, stop asking these difficult questions."

Capitalism under effective management has great potential, but it would no longer be what we know as capitalism, it would be a new system.

Capitalism cannot work, either the system must be reformed or completely replaced. As it stands it is fundamentally flawed and is simply a force for oppression and tyranny.

Capitalism cannot work, either the system must be reformed or completely replaced. As it stands it is fundamentally flawed and is simply a force for oppression and tyranny

you're quite boring with your Cod economics.

druidh - Member
She should be paid as much as she can be, as long as she agrees to do as much work and the best work she can do. = "I don't know, stop asking these difficult questions."

Comes down to motivation sunshine, it doesn't have to be overly complicated to be effective. If you motivate people you will get more out put from them. If you pay them as little as possible you get as little work as possible.

ernie - I know you revel in your "smarts not from books" pedigree

😀 LOL ! .......... I don't at all, ie, think that I'm particularly smart (reasonably well informed on some matters maybe) nor do I have a problem with book readers - it just doesn't interest me personally.

But thanks for the tip on "Nothing to Envy" anyway. Unfortunately (apart from not enjoying reading books cover to cover) I have no interest at all in North Korea - I am as anti-Maoist as I am anti-Trot. I'm sure the quality of journalism is excellent, however that is unlikely to impress me - any interest in reading is purely for the purpose of gathering facts and information. But thanks again 8)

BTW you might be interested to know that I was talking to a mate of mine recently (another lefty Leninist like me) about the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, and I confessed that I had never read it (particularly surprising considering my trade) and I told him that I thought it was about time that I did. I then mentioned that I had been recommended the Road to Wigan Pier (by you remember) he tutted, looked disapproving, and said "it's by George Orwell", my mate, unlike me, is pretty intellectual - he went to uni. "Bourgeois bollox ?" I asked, the answer was affirmative. Still, I kinda think that maybe one day I'll read it, along with the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists - I feel I ought to. But I guess I probably never will 🙂

Oh which reminds me, a year ago I spent some time with my sister in Madrid, I got a bit bored and she suggested that I read one of her books, I chose "As I walked out one midsummer morning" and I really enjoyed it !.....maybe this book reading lark isn't that bad after all ! Mind you, I was bored, the book is very short, and I had the added interest that my father went to fight in Spain 1936-39.

Monetarism isn't working and the left can't provide a working alternative.
Saw that someplace.

[i]"Cod economics"[/i]

[img] [/img]

Stoner and DruidH took the words out of my mouth.

I think what you are trying to suggest is that the entire profits of a company should be shared between employees. But if this were to happen, there would be no incentive for people to invest in capital, and to take the risks that setting up a business requires. Development would totally stagnate.

Not much of an argument to say there isn't any workable model,

the US and the UK have just spent 50 years making sure that no other economy could compete with them.

That's the beauty of capitalism and the danger, [s]starve off other countries of resources[/s] [b]buy resources from countries where they are less in demand[/b] and then sell them stuff from your economy that is stronger and has more money for research and development.

So kaesae, given reports that you own your own business, and that charity begins at home and all that, can I presume that you're paying yourself minimum wage and donating the rest to more worthy causes? Money where your mouth is.

"Bourgeois bollox ?"

I think that must be why I liked it then 🙂 And "Down and Out in Paris and London". Another great read.

maybe this book reading lark isn't that bad after all ! Mind you, I was bored, the book is very short, and I had the added interest that my father went to fight in Spain 1936-39.

You should read some Hemmingway...

EDIT> BTW I was forced to read Cider with Rosie at school and hated it. Put me off Laurie Lee for life.

The Nothing to Envy book I recommend as a source of information and facts. I learnt a good deal of the North Korean life from it that Ive never seen reports on before.

I read pretty much everything Orwell wrote in my mid-teens.

This thread reminds me I really should re-read it. I wonder how well it's (or I've !)aged.

Comrade - that's not a capitalist cod, but a common pikey 🙂

It's probably completely futile to suggest it but this stuff is well worth reading. Start with the Manifesto, go on to Das Kapital, dip into Grundrisse and Theories of Surplus Value and don't overlook Engels on the family, evolution and Anti Duhring. This stuff is unparalleled in modern writing and anyone who dismisses it really doesn't know their arse from their elbow. It's not easy reading but it's incredibly rewarding.

and Id add in von Mises and Adam Smith.

I think that capitalism fits in quite well wth the natural order of things. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, predator/prey cycles. Thing is, there are downsides to this in that we get boom and bust, feast and famine, strongest and weakest (in terms of financial stength). I like the idea of being able to better your standard of living through hard work and creativity. But also as most people do, I don't like the downsides. Like politics in general I don't think the answer lies in choosing one extreme or the othere but blending the positives from all viewpoints.

I am far from any kind of economist, but I believe in a free market economy as being the best (so far) model we have, with a couple of noteable exceptions: education, health, utilities (maybe, not made my mind up on that one).

I am a stong believer in the (principle of) the NHS, and that a good, free, education should be available for all.

Continual economic growth (surely the lifeblood of capitalism) based upon the use of fossil fuels is totally unsustainable from an environmental point of view. So ultimately it's doomed.

Like politics in general I don't think the answer lies in choosing one extreme or the othere but blending the positives from all viewpoints.

Amen to that.

I think that capitalism fits in quite well wth the natural order of things. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, predator/prey cycles. Thing is, there are downsides to this in that we get boom and bust, feast and famine, strongest and weakest (in terms of financial stength). I like the idea of being able to better your standard of living through hard work and creativity. But also as most people do, I don't like the downsides. Like politics in general I don't think the answer lies in choosing one extreme or the othere but blending the positives from all viewpoints.

You should read some Hemmingway...

Continual economic growth (surely the lifeblood of capitalism) based upon the use of fossil fuels is totally unsustainable from an environmental point of view. So ultimately it's doomed.

Alternative power sources can and will be found.

Where do you think the majority of the car makers' R&D budget goes these days?

economic growth

The sweaty palms that peak oil causes is just whats needed to induce economically driven development in non-carbon fuels. That's market economics at work. It may not be as timely as people would like but if national trade agreements had managed to tether an environmental charge to carbon dioxide production it would have happened sooner.

You should read some Hemmingway...

I tried, many years ago - For whom the bell tolls. Again, because of the Spanish Civil War connection. I gave up about a quarter of the way through, despite initially being very determined.....why all the "old english" bollox ffs ? The truth is Stoner, I'm not an academic/intellectual......after all I'm a manual building worker. Which I wouldn't be if I could immerse myself in academia and reading.

The Nothing to Envy book I recommend as a source of information and facts. I learnt a good deal of the North Korean life from it that Ive never seen reports on before.

I wish I was interested in North Korea 😀

Continual economic growth (surely the lifeblood of capitalism) based upon the use of fossil fuels is totally unsustainable from an environmental point of view. So ultimately it's doomed.

I liked A Farewell to Arms.

Comes down to motivation sunshine, it doesn't have to be overly complicated to be effective. If you motivate people you will get more out put from them.

Oh yeah? You can give me all the motivation in the world, but if I get paid regardless of my output, I go smoke a giant blunt and watch Time Bandits instead. And I'm not the only one. Nothing would get done and no one would produce anything. The money you pay me would be worthless as there would be nothing to buy. Social responsibility? Come on, how naive can you be.

I lived in that kind of place, where having toilet paper to wipe your ass with was a luxury. I'm sure 'the workers' did the best they could. Socialism was really great. Sound like you need a dose to cure your disease.

If you pay them as little as possible you get as little work as possible.

Huh? Is that supposed to be an example of what happens in capitalism?! In a capitalist system, you get paid what you're worth. If your boss underpays you given the work that you do, someone else will pay you more.

It's weird that you think of it in terms of a wage, which then translates into a certain amount of work. As if you look at your pay packet and then decide how much work you're going to do. It's the wrong way around, and if you think like that you will never succeed. I do a certain amount of work, which then translates into a wage. If I work like a dog, my wage at the next pay rise will catch up to the work I do. And if my current company doesn't value my work properly, there are hundreds of others that will.

I tried, many years ago - For whom the bell tolls. Again, because of the Spanish Civil War connection. I gave up about a quarter of the way through, despite initially being very determined

and I'd add in...

Thoreau. 8)

aka_Gilo sums it up for me. Free market with notable exceptions.

theyEye - quite.

I think it's a pity you do yourself down based on your employment GG 😉

Your lucid and informed posts suggest far more capacity for wider studying than you seem willing to pursue.

Alternative power sources can and will be found.

At what point ? Before fossil fuels run out or before the earth reaches a point of no return environmentally ?

The idea that alternative methods will be implementable globally to offer a seamless transition from fossil to non fossil is hardly worth giving serious thought to.

We're doomed.

I'd also add Hobbes, Locke, Burke, Rousseau, Smiles, Lenin, Trotsky, Orwell. You need a spread to understand where modern political and economic thought comes from. Then get out and do something about it.

Hmm, will not write too much about economics as it will be way too boring. But here is a little taster from Iron Curtain:
-My neighbour's uncle was jailed for deliberate avoidance of work. At those times, very few and believe me 1 out of 1000 couldn't work due to disability etc even then if that was the case comunity would help person out to get a little job aka ringing the bell in school or something equivalent of lollipop lady.

-6months deliberate avoidance of work would equal 3-6months sentence in prison for promoting careless example of living (Tramp-ing). Once, USSR broke it was a big shock to many ex USSR countries to see homeless people. I mean, if you really dig out how it was before, you may find few homeless people but those would serve multiple sentences as described but even then you would really had to try it hard. Usually those -broken- characters would turn out to be helpless alcoholics with no self respect.
-My father used to work in Ship construction as a welder and used to earn lets say for example 200-250notes a month. Of which 25 would go towards housing including all bills and council flat rent. Another 25-30notes would go towards monthly food bill. The rest had either to go on Vodka n parties, or if more sophisticated, travelling around or saving towards private flat-house.
-Once as worker to government big factories or establishments, with work experience of 2+ years worker was entitled to Council Flat/studio, but if 7+ years then 1-2bedroom flat providing person would marry and start family. Many of those so called government establishment did build multi-stories blocks of flat to care for their workers.
-Kindergardens were free to all.
-Schools and universities were free to all.
-Hospital etc free to all again.

People were encouraged to start families and were given those privilege and convinience to grow families. We as kids were given tour-holiday from fathers work to stay for 1 or 3 months all inclusive in -Pioneer camps- during summer holidays and lived in forest as well as been trained all kind of forest life etc. As you see there was very heavy accent on children being educated through all different establishments. Obviously extremes of being taught of AK-74 in those scout camps were awesome but nevertheless.
-There were -Neighbourhood patrols- after 21.30 and any under age was caught out hanging around on streets would be taken to police station, which would inform school and local comunity authority of that reckless teenager and his careless parents. Needless to say plenty of embarassing questions would follow from your neighbours and school teachers etc. My parents wouldn't be impressed if that happened to me, and all pointing fingers at them from neighbours.

What we didn't have were:

-Snickers, Coca Cola, Levi's Jeans, Mercedes Benz cars, if there was shipment of exotic fruits aka bananas or pineapples people would have to queue for 5-6hours to get them. Not saying there was shortage of local produce or any foods, but due to Iron curtain Imports were rare.

People were not allowed to build extravagant Villas. There was standard on average 3 models of houses people could choose to build in order not to drive public into envy which would promote materialistic value and race towards greed.
-And worst of it all, USSR citizens were not allowed to travel abroad. You could go anywhere withing USSR territory (15countries) but West was forbidden. Not saying that my father somehow got ABBA and BoneyM records from sailors, but that's another story.

why all the "old english" bollox ffs ?

I thought he was trying to give an English version of Tu/Usted. Maybe I was wrong.

I loved a farewell to arms and For whom the bell tolls and to have and to have not.

At what point ? Before fossil fuels run out

inevitably - the demands for hydrocarbons for use in non-fuel products will price it above alternative fuels sources long before it runs out.

before the earth reaches a point of no return environmentally

that's a tougher one since a) no-one knows when "earth reaches a point of no return environmentally" and b) whether that point can even be reached if you return ALL of the stored carbon to the earth's atmosphere.

Thoreau

****ing wierdy beardy dirty hippy 🙂