[Closed] Capitalism, who agree's with the system or farce, who doesn't?

trailmonkey - Memb
We're doomed

See, you're a glass half empty kind of guy.

I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

For all it's many many faults, I have a (possibly naieve) faith in the human race to survive, and to develop economic / environmental policies / processes to do so.

It'll take being on the cusp of disaster to do so however...

and to develop economic / environmental policies / processes to do so.

What like using the markets to regulate carbon emissions ? Cos that's really worked huh ?

Maybe it's cos I'm a glass half full kind of guy that I see that there 's light at the end of the tunnel it's just not linked to continued economic growth.

I think it's a pity you do yourself down based on your employment GG

Your lucid and informed posts suggest far more capacity for wider studying than you seem willing to pursue.

I thought he was trying to give an English version of Tu/Usted. Maybe I was wrong.

No I believe you're right. It doesn't explain why he did it though .......the people might have spoken like that, but they also spoke in Spanish. And yet the book wasn't written in Spanish.

**** wierdy beardy dirty hippy

Even worse - he occasionally worked as a [url= http://www.profsurv.com/magazine/article.aspx?i=70164 ][i]surveyor[/i][/url].

Not chartered though, iirc. 😀

What like using the markets to regulate carbon emissions ? Cos that's really worked huh ?

Nope, because at present there's no real incentive for it to work.

Maybe it's cos I'm a glass half full kind of guy that I see that there 's light at the end of the tunnel it's just not linked to continued economic growth.

Fair enough - so what is it linked to? (bearing in mind that most of us - Western society - have lifestyles based on economic growth).

Id love to see a future based on economic contraction, but unless we want to see some massive increases in levels of poverty, it's not going to happen whilst we continue to have population growth. Fortunately there's some indications that population growth should peak sometime this century and start falling again.

Fortunately there's some indications that population growth should peak sometime this century and start falling again.

Really? Got any sources? Not being facetious, I've long thought that population growth is by far the biggest problem the human race / the planet faces, so if indeed the curve is not ever-upwards I will sleep easier 🙂

Stoner, falling population will happen either through wars, natural disaster or pharmaceutical gadgetry. Soya bean allready been modified to produce different kind of protein, but that's another story.

I think it's a pity you do yourself down based on your employment GG

I'm not sure I understand that .......I have no problem with what I am/my profession/trade.

you're nowhere near as thick as you like to make out

I don't really understand that either. I know I'm not thick, but I also know that I'm not much above average. A very important point imo ... 'cause being "right" is far more important to me than being "clever".

Actually if anything, the reserve is true aracer - I am aware that I give the appearance on here, that I am [i]far more[/i] intellectual than I really am. The truth is that spellcheck and thesaurus are my friends 😀

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The UN. I think they might be hedging their bets though 🙂

Really? Got any sources?

He's modelled it in Excel. Or else he's talking about the population of Malvern. Possibly.

Edit: fug, too slow!

You can't really argue with kaesae. He doesn't follow logic and reason, and he has a very confused idea of the past or other parts of the present. And you can't even get angry with him because he's a nice chap.

Capitalism is indeed a bad system but so are all the others unfortunately.

1) I vote for the green curve 😉

2) The blue line scares the life out of me.

what I mean GG, is that you seem to use your trade as an excuse [i]not[/i] to aspire to [i]be[/i] more academic/intellectual... ❓

The truth is that spellcheck and thesaurus are my friends

...I always think at some point I'll discover that Ernie is actually a sock puppet for somebody totally different having a laugh at us all.

God you're a boring sod, Stoner.

Got any more graphs before I fall asleep? I like a nice graph, me. 🙂

It's late and my brain hurts will try and expand after a sleep but IMHO:

Capitalism does have it's place in part of a wider economic system, no 'pure' system is right.

Where capitalism does work is production where profit and competition keep development going, costs down and wages fair. Socialism is the fairest way of providing services (education, health, emergency response and I'd argue infrastructure) because once you bring profit into these areas the service become less important.

I think that capitalism fits in quite well wth the natural order of things. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, predator/prey cycles.

I'd say inherited wealth is pretty unnatural selection.

Well you're wrong Stoner. In this instance, I just simply used my trade to emphasis what you should expect my academic/intellectual level to be. Because apart from the very obvious fact that I read the Guardian, in almost every other respect, I am a very typical manual building worker. I feel utterly comfortable in a construction site environment, my likes, preferences, etc, are exactly the same as any other building worker. How many building workers would you expect to have read Hemingway ffs ? Be honest.

Ernie; can you recommend some plywood from which I can make furniture please? 🙂

Thanks.

I love plywood, me.

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aracer - Member

Anyway, it's not even the writing, it's the thinking behind it....

Exactly......that's my point. Concentrate on that. Would you be impressed by someone who understood the theory of evolution ? After all, it took a genius to work it out. And yet today a nine year old child can understand the principles behind it.

What about plywood though Ernie? 🙁

You can't come up with a system for an industrialised society that will work because the progress of evolution is so far behind the progress of technology that there's a fundamental mismatch between the modern human's inherent behaviour and how it has to live.

It all started falling apart when we progressed from hunter-gatherers to farmers.

I love that chair; I frickin' love that chair!

I wish I had that chair... 🙁

How many building workers would you expect to have read Hemingway ffs ?

Well, I did when I was in shopfitting and you have, so that's at least two (even if I don't work on a building site anymore). Hemmingway would have been most impressed at that statistic.

Id love to see a future based on economic contraction, but unless we want to see some massive increases in levels of poverty, it's not going to happen whilst we continue to have population growth.

Two points,

1. I'd also love to see a future based upon current levels of carbon emmissions, but sadly there isn't much of one. So I guess something's just going to have to give.

2. Increases in poverty and a disparity between rich and poor are hardly likely to decrease because of econmic growth, in fact I'm sure there's plenty of evidence to suggest that econmic growth and wealth disparity grow pretty well together.

tm - RE 2)

That's where I think economic contraction would be one of the biggest steps towards equality.

Much of the capital value of assets across the world is based on expectation of income generated and additional expectations that that income will grow over time. This "yield" whether it be on shares, bonds, land or property would be dramatically affected by falling long term demand that would result from a falling population, wiping out massive amounts of capital value. Who holds capital assets? The wealthy, not the poor. I think wage income would be relatively unchanged but capital value would plummet. Unearned income from assets would also fall. Even other commodity assets like gold and silver would fall in price as the pool of prospective purchasers, which keeps these prices afloat, shrinks. A communist utopia when the capitalist shark stops swimming forwards? 🙂

in fact I'm sure there's plenty of evidence to suggest that econmic growth and wealth disparity grow pretty well together.

more plywood:

[img] [/img]

awesome stuff.

How many building workers would you expect to have read Hemingway ffs ? Be honest.

How many Hemmingway readers would expect to have constructed a shed from scratch? 🙂

I think that getting the developing world to become developed will be the best thing for controlling global population as birth rates drop as living standards and education rise. Capitalism plays a part. People want to better themselves if they can see they might be better off or at least have more options. Its difficult to see that here as we've become somewhat nonchalant about schooling but kids in poorer nations seem to want it more.

Of course that's all not great for fossil fuels though but I think technology will provide a solution. Sadly our inability to cooperate has meant that we've left it too late and capitalism will have to fix the problem and it will be a very bumpy ride that will no doubt worsen some people's lives.

I'm not talking about untypical examples Trailmonkey & Stoner, I talking about expected averages - in most respects I consider myself fairly average.

you have neither grazed knuckles, nor a propensity to grunt GG, therefore you too are not the expected average of a site chippy 🙂

Ernie - I don't agree with you on a lot of points but have a great deal of respect for the clarity of your thinking. I would suggest you are far from average. No homo.

From anyone else I might I have considered that to be an insult Stoner, but from you, not least because of your presumed recent experiences, I take that it's tongue in cheek. I my own extensive personal experience, the typical building worker appears to be slightly more "intelligent" than average, the reason for, I have never really completely understood.

So what have we learnt in STW school lately then, big words are good and small brains rock ❓

Also that the big bad tree's and plants have been defeated by the righteous capitalists and that the lovely carbon monoxide/dioxide flavoured air is now free for everyone globaly.

Which has a useful side effect, that means that the pesky natural shield that once protected the planet from asteroids and meteorites or other space debris, now lets far more in. So long ****y shield, you have been REJECTED!

Also being outside now gives you a tan in far less time and comes with free scin cancer too, woo hoo!

Actually free flavoured stuff like water, air and soil aka pollution are now everywhere and free.

If a few billion people starve or suffer and a few million get murdered, raped or tortured, well it's all in the name of progress.

Also if a global catastrophe should come along and catch humanity with it's proverbial pants down, I'm sure the habbit of not working together and being selfish bastards, will not mean that we can't work together or sacrafice for each other to over come it ❓

Yes I see now that capitalism is a good thing, that what it offers (slavery) is far more important than what it takes away! (freedom).

keep up kaesae - we've moved on from Economics 101* to Ernie Ego Massaging.

If you still need remedial lessons we'll do a revision class after Newsround.

Torminalis - I don't want to get any further bogged down on issues which have nothing to do with this thread, but you are wrong in your conclusion imo. 'Clarity of thinking' has nothing necessarily to do with intelligence or its average. I like to use the evolutionist vs creationist argument because it shows that despite the fact that a creationist can, quite unbelievably, actually be [i]"intelligent",[/i] they may still lose an argument against a [i]"less intelligent"[/i] evolutionist. The evolutionist might well show greater 'clarity of thinking' despite being less educated/academic/intelligent/etc. Any further comments on the issue ought to be on another thread imo.

JustAnotherLogin - Member

I think that getting the developing world to become developed will be the best thing for controlling global population as birth rates drop as living standards and education rise.

it's not the number of people that's the problem, but the amount we consume, a small number of educated/rich people will consume more than a bigger population of uneducated/poor people.

Ernie, I made no mention of intelligence. Nuff said.

Sorry Torminalis, I took "No homo" to be a reference to Homo Erectus.

Were you talking about my sexuality then ?

No homo = 'I may respect you, but I do not wish to see your bottom'

the pesky natural shield that once protected the planet from asteroids and meteorites or other space debris

The what now?

Kaesae, we don't think capitalism is good. However we have very little choice unfortunately.

i think quite clearly summarizes my feelings on this whole debate:

[img] [/img]

to all of you, no homo x

Stoner - Member
keep up kaesae - we've moved on from Economics 101* to Ernie Ego Massaging.

If you still need remedial lessons we'll do a revision class after Newsround.

Sorry old chap, one didn't realize this had because a massaging session. When you're finsihed with ernies ego could you deal with the tension in my pants ❓