[Closed] Can vegetarians eat lab grown hamburgers/meat?

Jamie

It's all getting closer to ..

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"Starting with stem cells extracted from a biopsy of a cow"

As a vegan, I wouldn't as this still involves the use of a cow

I think your assumption that taste doesn't come into it is probably specious as most of the meat eaters I know can't tell the difference between meat from different animals - its just [i]meat[/i] and that's what they eat.

As a vegan, I wouldn't as this still involves the use of a cow

...but they are not killing the cow to get the stem cells, and if it is a painless procedure, on what grounds would you have an issue?

...not having a go, genuinely asking.

I think your assumption that taste doesn't come into it is probably specious as most of the meat eaters I know can't tell the difference between meat from different animals - its just meat and that's what they eat.

So for those who do it for taste reasons, how can you not eat all animals, as they all taste different?

as someone who doesnt like the idea of animals suffering I think this is a brilliant idea

of course the stem cell couldve been extracted non lethally from the cow even from the umbilacal cord (however its unlikely)

Its grey and tasteless. all the flavourings are added and the colour is beetroot juice, why would anybody eat it ,carnivore or veggie ?

Assuming most do it for welfare reasons

In my case, my own. Stuff the animals.

I'd be willing to give it ago. But I'm sure I saw something on the telly box about this and it was more or less tasteless!??

Its grey and tasteless. all the flavourings are added and the colour is beetroot juice, why would anybody eat it ,carnivore or veggie ?

Haven't you just described Quorn? 😉

and it was more or less tasteless!??

Like chicken then 😀

Cow, chicken, quorn, person. There all much the same.

Its grey and tasteless. all the flavourings are added and the colour is beetroot juice, why would anybody eat it ,carnivore or veggie ?

Version 1.0 of the product, I'm assuming that in a few years they'll have got the taste stuff worked out.

Would this make it morally acceptable and possible to eat human flesh? Be interesting to see if it does taste like pork...

i wouldn't touch it, no.

I'd rather eat insects...

I think your assumption that taste doesn't come into it is probably specious as most of the meat eaters I know can't tell the difference between meat from different animals - its just meat and that's what they eat.

Is that really true? OK, in processed food definitely - is it horse or cow? But non-processed meat? I can certainly tell the difference between pork, lamb, beef, chicken...

most of the meat eaters I know can't tell the difference between meat from different animals

really!? I'm confident that I could identify beef, lamb, pork, chicken and duck blindfolded

yeah some are more similar chicken\turkey but I think I could tell those apart too turkey has a quite different texture

pigeon\duck probably not

@ Jamie, I don't drink milk either despite the fact that the cow itself is not killed. Just don't believe in using animals- assuming lots of cows are used for the stem cells, statistically some will me mistreated or kept in poor conditions. Just wouldn't be something I'd want to support 🙂

I'd rather eat insects...

Therein lies another topic...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-22508439

http://www.livescience.com/37816-eating-insects-helps-feed-hungry-world.html

Also, there was a really good documentary on the subject on BBC4 a while back, sadly not on iPlayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01599yk

I guess it's still exploiting animals for food. Knew a vegan once who wouldn't eat honey as it exploited bees.

I've already had this debate as The Office Veggie (TM) and my position is that I just don't like meat, so growing it is no different to mechanically reclaiming it as far as I'm concerned.

Think they should have concentrated on chicken and fish though, for mass market appeal and to target the quasi-veggies who eat fish (aka The Weak).

Mind you, I like Quorn, so maybe I should give it a go!

its just meat and that's what they eat.

Fitting into the food snob category. Your post struck me as being bllx.

Can't speak for processed meats as its been far too long to remember.

I guess it's still exploiting animals for food. Knew a vegan once who wouldn't eat honey as it exploited bees.

But the bees love it. They need a dictatorship to survive, acting like some kind of vengeful god works for them too!

@ Jamie, I don't drink milk either despite the fact that the cow itself is not killed.

Seriously?

Seriously?

I guess it's all part of Meat Inc.

I thought dairy farming was a completely different thing to breeding cows to savagely and inhumanely butcher them, before cutting them into little pieces, feeding them into mincing machines, and popping them on the barby?

Serious question for the vegans: what is the issue with the dairy industry? Does it apply to cheese and stuff too

Well the cows that produce the milk are often (not always) held in cramped conditions, they have been bred to produce several times more milk than 50 or so years ago (which I can only imagine is uncomfortable for the cow), baby calves are taken from their mothers at around 2 days old and often cry for weeks because of this, and the ones that are born male are shot, either for veal or just disposed of. Just doesn't sit right with me and so I support it

to get taste it would take more than just 'meat' cells

youd need fat, a circulatory system, hormones possibly bone structure to support it, perhaps pass an electric current through it to simulate exercise etc

things would have to be kept very sterile, probably require a lot of antibiotics at first, maybe an immune system later

in theory 1 stem cell from 1 cow would be enough to create as much meat as you wanted, in practice it'd be a good idea to mix it and have as many parental lines as possible to reduce vulnerabilities to disease

I imagine that eventually tanker sized vats could be used to grow meat that tastes identical to real beef, pork, chicken etc but could be made healthier- less salt, fat, reduced risk of bowel cancer etc

if everyone wants to keep eating burgers, especially as developing countries expand their middle classes we will need a lot more meat from somewhere

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The Dairy industry is hardly natural, cows selectively bread for huge milk production, possible pain from massive uders bloated with milk, mechanically serviced 2-3 times a day, calves removed from mums at birth etc.

I can see plenty wrong with it..

this is so tiresome, it's all stuff that's been done to death on here.

i don't care what you all choose to eat (or not), so why do you care what anyone else does?

Its grey and tasteless. all the flavourings are added and the colour is beetroot juice, why would anybody eat it ,carnivore or veggie ?

So the real achievement is making a meat substitute that relies on the same tricks as existing meat substitutes to make it taste like meat, despite being closer to real meat than Quorn...

What's the real difference then between culturing Mycoprotein and Bovine muscle tissue if you're still going to have to flavor and colour it either way...

I simply don't see the point, How can this be more environmentally and ecconomically viable than actual farming or existing meat substitutes?

As one of the guests on 'Today' pointed out this morning, it's not that we have a shortage of food globally, simply an imbalance, the First world has an excess with artificially low prices, the third world has a deficit and hence shortages push certain items out of the financial reach of the poorest...

Hurrah! we can grow meat cubes in a lab at incredible cost, as much of a scientific achievement as this is, I can't help thinking it's actually of next to bugger all use to Humanity...

this is so tiresome, it's all stuff that's been done to death on here.

and yet you can't resist posting....

It was a a genuine question. The non-meat thing is obvious, but I didn't know the objections to dairy farming. Every days a school day eh?

rsmythe - do you not eat any dairy products at all? Or can you get ethically sourced dairy products, that don't involve this type of process?

xherbivorex - Member
this is so tiresome, it's all stuff that's been done to death on here.
i don't care what you all choose to eat (or not), so why do you care what anyone else does?

oooh, you and your caring, sharing big world view! 😀

I simply don't see the point, How can this be more environmentally and ecconomically viable than actual farming or existing meat substitutes?

the cells themselves wouldve actually been grown in media containing calf serum (you know them male calves rsmythe mentioned.....)

@ xherbivorex: I'm talking about it because the question was raised. Opposite to you, I personally do care what others eat. I personally think that we rely on animal products far too much and that often people don't fully know about how badly animals are treated in the industry. Similarly I have no problem with evangelical Christians. They try to convert you because it's something that they feel passionate about, and it's up to you if you listen or not. If its that tiresome why did you click on the thread? 😉

weve only been able to drink milk and have dairy farming for the last 7,500 years and the fact that we are all here today in this part of the world is because your ancestors accrued a survival advantage from a single base pair mutation in your DNA (even the vegans)* allowing you to do so

a fascinating article from last week
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471?WT.mc_id=FBK_NatureNews

* btw thats not meant as a dig rsmythe I respect your position just stating the facts

if the link requires a subscription i think the podcast is free
http://www.nature.com/nature/podcast/index-2013-08-01.html

rsmythe, i suppose i should explain myself a bit better- i'm vegan myself, and have been for over 20 years. over that time, i've lost count of how many discussions like this one i've seen on various forums etc where you almost always end up with each "side" of the debate just trolling or trying to score points off one another.
and i think i've just come to realise that no matter how politely, sensibly and rationally you explain your own viewpoint you're never going to get anyone to change their mind or rethink (and that goes for both sides).
i totally agree that we as a society rely on animal products far too much, and also that a lot of people either don't know or choose to not take an interest in just how unethical the commercial meat/dairy industries are.

Hi binners, you can certainly get more ethically produced milk, from animals that are far better treated than those that churn out tons of milk a day for the big supermarkets. You have to look very hard though as often labels such as 'free range' (not really applicable here) don't often mean much. Though, it's the whole process that bothers me. For birthing and removing the calf from the mother to killing the cow when it can no longer 'serve' us. I'm getting by fine on plant based milks and so for me dairy seems unnecessary

Nahhh, I'm of the opinion that being a Veggie extends to mechanically grown meat.

Ah I should have figured from your username 😉 I get where you're coming from regarding arguing etc but during my time as a vegan one of my friends and one acquaintance have turned vegan, maybe partially due to me explaining my side of the argument. If it triggers debate and causes people to maybe think slightly differently about it then that's got to be a good thing 🙂 Hopefully people that have read this thread are viewing the dairy industry in a different light now, or maybe just willing me to stfu!

this is so tiresome, it's all stuff that's been done to death on here.

Really? A man has been about to eat a fully synthetic lab grown hamburger, for the first time, many times before? As that is what prompted the thread.

Sorry, I thought this was a new thing.

Mods. Nuke from orbit till medium/rare.

Serious question for the vegans: what is the issue with the dairy industry?

You have to have a calf to have milk. So what do you do with the calf? I would have thought though that it would be possible to let the calf drink milk until its weaned and then simply keep milking the mother...

Hopefully people that have read this thread are viewing the dairy industry in a different light now, or maybe just willing me to stfu!

Both? 😀 Its interesting this. I wasn't aware of issues with dairy farming at all. I didn't know about the calves being removed. My assumption would have been the same as Molly's really

If you use dairy, you should really make sure you're also eating veal. (Proper, British rose veal, of course).

You have to have a calf to have milk. So what do you do with the calf? I would have thought though that it would be possible to let the calf drink milk until its weaned and then simply keep milking the mother...

not if you want an industry selling millions of litres at supermarkets for 50p a litre

I think a lot of people are willfully ignorant of how food is mass produced, look at Bernard Matthews: to us a rosy cheeked norfolk farmer who brought turkey into the mainstream, to Turkeys hes the freaking Antichrist

I'm liking your logic their flashy!

Does one have ones own herd? 😉

I refer you to one of the greatest films of all time, (starring dolf lundgren)

Man-At-Arms: Mmm... good food.
Teela: I wonder why they put the meat on these little white sticks?
Man-At-Arms: Those are rib bones.
Teela : [pauses in shock] You mean this used to be an animal?
Man-At Arms: [continues eating] Mm-hmm.
Teela: Ugh! What a barbaric world...
[b]Man-At-Arms: Never think while you're hungry.[/b]
Teela: I think we've wasted enough time. We'd better get back to our sectors.
Gwildor: It tasted good...

As a question, it's flawed.

"Can" veggies eat it? Of course they can. [i]Would [/i]they, is another matter. I know that sounds a little pedantic, but it's a fairly important distinction if you genuinely want to understand; people don't not eat meat because they're vegetarian, they're vegetarian because they don't eat meat.

So what? Well, what this means is that there isn't a vegetarian rulebook / bible which all the vegetarians follow. People are vegetarian for different reasons, and some are stricter than others. Some people call themselves vegetarian but just avoid red meat (which is really irritating as it confuses non-veggies who then offer tuna pasta bakes as the vegetarian 'option' in restaurants); some people wouldn't eat barbecued food if it's been turned with the same tongs as the meat; some fall somewhere in between.

So can veggies eat artificially grown meat? Yes. Would they? It depends entirely on why they're vegetarian. If I were veggie purely for ethical reasons then I probably would, but I'm not; I find the idea of chowing down into dead flesh revolting and being artificial wouldn't change that, so personally I wouldn't eat it. I just don't see meat as food; for me the question may as well ask whether you'd eat dog poo if we could find a way of making it without requiring a dog.

"Can" veggies eat it? Of course they can.

Can a question be flawed, if it can be answered, Cougar?

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assuming that this type of meat became the norm would cougars be the last generation of veggies?

Jamie - Member
A man has been about to eat a fully synthetic lab grown hamburger, for the first time, many times before? As that is what prompted the thread.

Sorry, I thought this was a new thing.

Mods. Nuke from orbit till medium/rare

whilst we've arrived at the point where it's actually going to take place, the notion of growing "meat" in a lab has been around for a while and yes it has actually been raised as an ethical discussion on here, specifically aimed at the vegetarians/vegans on stw. and it, as was usually the case, descended into a sarcastic trolling match.

What's the ethical position on burgers made from human stem cells?

So the real achievement is making a meat substitute that relies on the same tricks as existing meat substitutes to make it taste like meat, despite being closer to real meat than Quorn...

What's the real difference then between culturing Mycoprotein and Bovine muscle tissue if you're still going to have to flavor and colour it either way...

I simply don't see the point, How can this be more environmentally and ecconomically viable than actual farming or existing meat substitutes?

If you read the article that was linked in the OP, you will read that the goal is to produce meat by also culturing fat, blood, etc, and by using artificial blood vessels to supply oxygen and nutrients so that the grown meat more closely mimics the real thing. Quite interesting really. It will be more energy efficient than farming because you are only concentrating on growing the meat, you haven't got the energy expenditure of a cow doing cow stuff.

I could open a chain of restaurants selling burgers made from my stem cells. I think I'll call it My Alternative Cells (Donalds).

Should be no problem.

Or can you get ethically sourced dairy products, that don't involve this type of process?

No they artificially inseminate cows then take the calf away as they dont produce milk for no reason - its to feed their young
Females cows may become diary males ones are almost always killed at birth.
IMHO it is little different form the meat industry tbh in terms of treatment
Theoretically goats continue to lactate after the young have been weaned so this may be ethically fine for some but they can explain that decision if there are any on here - I dont consume any milk - except the milk of human kindness and my cup over floweth on these threads - bless you all

descended into a sarcastic trolling match.

warms up typing hands and cut and paste skills

the fact that we are all here today in this part of the world is because your ancestors accrued a survival advantage from a single base pair mutation in your DNA (even the vegans)* allowing you to do so

WOW how did we survive up to that point then Sherlock 😉
Remind us what percentage of the population cannot do this still- wow they survived to...strokes chin wonders what it can all mean
Remind us what percentage of the population - Asian for example - have no history of consuming milk products etc and how your argument applies to them who ?

Dont really reply just saying it is not as simplistic as you say - though your argument is not without merit either obviously

people don't not eat mean because they're vegetarian,

What cougar says I could eat whatever i like but the question is will I? Not sure how tasty is it 😉

In reality not given it any real thought and not going to start now either

WOW how did we survive up to that point then Sherlock
Remind us what percentage of the population cannot do this still- wow they survived to...strokes chin wonders what it can all mean
Remind us what percentage of the population - Asian for example - have no history of consuming milk products etc and how your argument applies to them?

I said survival [u]advantage [/u] - 19% according to that article, which is huge for a single mutation:

Once the LP allele appeared, it offered a major selective advantage. In a 2004 study5, researchers estimated that people with the mutation would have produced up to 19% more fertile offspring than those who lacked it.

I really think you should read the article as you seem to be missing the (several) point(s) JY!

the fact is the the gene swept through europe to the extent that brits of european origin are 99% likely to have it

7500 years ago they didnt, it doesnt take sherlock to realise that the gene was obviously very useful in this part of the world, so much so that those without it were replaced by your ancestors*

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* based on the assumption that most of the people on stw are white brits of european origin

I'll buy the reduced claim on land mass point, but fewer emissions and reduced environmental impact?

It's a Lab process which will be productionized and turned into a Factory process (apparently), that means significant power consumption (which still means emissions) and what about the process itself? any Waste streams? Such things are normally an inevitably part of any industrial process...

What are the real terms byproducts Per/Kg of Industrially cultured "Beef" Vs "Conventionally Farmed" Moo Cow steaks?

And then there's the multiple uses of cows, Beef, Milk, Leather, tipping...
So far they are only talking about replicating a single Output from farming this particular animal...
Do we come up with additional industrial processes in order to completely supersede the need for breeding and keeping livestock (each process with its own environmental impact), or do we still farm them for Dairy and/or Leather, but only culture beef? Thus we have the Environmental impact and waste of Farming coupled with that of a new industrial process...

That's just Cattle, what about Piggies, Sheeps or Chickenses?

I think the Net Environmental gain would actually equate to about Nil once all is said and done...

And it would take a very significant cultural shift to either significantly reduce Human consumption of dead animal products or get them to accept industrially cultured substitutes.

We're tool makes and by our very nature we will always try to improve on any task or process to make it more efficient and improve yield/volume/availability.
Just look at where this has taken us in terms of personal transport, from foot to horseback, to Steam powered Rail and pedal power, to internal combustion with all the environmental issues that accompany such "progress" and the evolved solution with all it's nasty byproducts becomes an entrenched part of our society that people just won't give up or reduce their use of without a fight....

Nah, Factory grown meat? Not a chance - Veggie or not...

If your motivation in choosing your diet was animal welfare then you'd eat certain meats before you'd consider many dairy products.

Nah, Factory grown meat? Not a chance - Veggie or not..

isnt battery farming esentially factory grown meat? (just with added cruelty and suffering)

Mean I am positively cruel

Bah. Typo corrected. #abuseofpower

after the food scandals of recent years, would anybody really be that surprised if cheap meat products were found to contain bits of human.

Yes. I would

cookeaa

Dr Post said that his cultured beef was still undergoing a lifecycle analysis to work out its overall environmental impacts, but early indications were that his lab meat reduced the need for land and water by 90% and overall energy use was cut by 70%.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/05/first-hamburger-lab-grown-meat-press-conference
/p>

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Of course, the real story will be the resulting zombie hordes. I always thought it would come from some weird meat-based product, just assumed it would be McD's or some other reconstituteeesh...

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looks like the really cheap birdseye griddle 'steaks' i used to eat whilst at uni; they left a luminous yellow fatty deposit in the grill

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