theotherjonv - MemberCan they actually force you to stay on the train!
No but they are known to slap you with a penalty fare at the exit barrier!
50 p a mile is the total cost roughly as worked out by the RAC - buying from new and doing 10 000 miles a year. small cars cheaper, bigger more expensive. 13 p a mile for petrol- is that a very economical car?
Tyres? repairs? Mots?
The original comment was: "The cost of driving is 50p per mile for most of us." - far less than most of us buy a car from new on finance and run for 3 years, which is what the RAC figures are based on. Mine's a big car - with current diesel prices, 13p a mile is just under 50mpg, which is far from incredible economy compared to what lots of other people quote on here. I included tyres in my servicing costs (only about 1p a mile anyway), along with repairs and MOT (I even mentioned that specifically) - most of that cost being repairs rather than anything else.
Most people have higher depreciation and higher insurance than that. Or much higher servicing costs in older cars.
Most people might do worse than me, but I'd dispute that most people have high enough depreciation to hit 50p a mile - you need to buy new and keep for 3 years as mentioned above. Surely most people don't do that - certainly round here I'd suggest that the majority of cars on the road are >3 years old. I pay nowhere near £600 a year on servicing and repairing my ageing car.
many people still on petrol and spending 20p a mile
30mpg? Are you serious? I used to get better than that in an old banger 20 years ago - I find it hard to believe that many people are spending 20p a mile on fuel when so many people either have small petrol cars or large diesels, either of which will get close to my figures.
...and of course the marginal cost is still <20p a mile even for those with newer cars who's total cost is 50p+ a mile.
[i]30mpg? Are you serious? I used to get better than that in an old banger 20 years ago - I find it hard to believe that many people are spending 20p a mile on fuel when so many people either have small petrol cars or large diesels, either of which will get close to my figures.[/i]
I run a petrol Mondeo and 30-35mpg is about average, worse if in urban traffic. Mind you I usually do better than Ford reckon, they say 25.2mpg for town driving.
So I would say the claim that lots of people are spending 20 pence per mile on fuel, and 50 pence per mile overall, is justified.
At the risk of alienating myself, part - stress part - of the issue with rail is the management.
I worked at network rail and it is appallingly managed. No cost control, poor processes, total lack of commerciality. Half the people I had worked with were there from br days, had a nice pension, in a union, had free rail travel. Just a massive gravy train with a lack of understanding of the customer. My wife worked in engineering there and it was just the same.
There are lots of good people but the waste of money is shocking - the recent review of the rail system says pretty much the same thing (30 percent inefficiency etc).
I use the train every day (we only have one car which my wife needs) and gladly vote for a 10-30 percent reduction in cost for no drop in service 😉
Anyway. Rant over. My train has arrived at reading.
I reckon my average motoring costs work out as
Car Fuel 60-63mpg 10p per mile. 15k per year
Van Fuel 35-38mpg 17p per mile. 10k per year
Insurance £600 a year,
Road tax, servicing, mot, tyres, repairs etc £500 a year*
That works out as a total of 17p per mile overall or 15p if I ignore the servicing costs etc.
*Normally actually 0 in my case due to the way I run vehicles. Buy cheap ones, run them for 6 months and sell on at a price to cover purchase, servicing, tax etc.
The only time public transport might work for me (and it's unlikely to be cheaper) is on very long journeys but living in Sheffield I'm fairly central to the uk. The station is 10 minutes from my house on the bike if I try plus 10 minutes to sort out there and 30mins for those bits on the way back home, means any train time needs 50mins adding at this end and some more the other end.
I agree it should be cheaper but even if it was for me it would very rarely be a senseible option.
what car?60-63mpg
Loads of cars get that kind of economy TJ.
1.9 tdi seat ibiza fr, that's calculated mpg per tank as well not from the trip computer. I can get over 70mpg on a journey fairly often.
TandemJeremy - Member
60-63mpg
what car?
Many modern cars driven at non 'hair-curling' speeds will give 50mpg+ on open roads.......
Pay more council tax? Or give your mum the taxi fare to look after your kids?
We paid mum the taxi fare. Of course we did.
But why would paying more council tax mean a better bus service? Funding comes from a national level - the only difference is that the local council decide what percentage is passed on.
Come to think of it, shouldn't car usage be encouraged ?
I suspect the use of cars supports more jobs than the use of public transport, and allows businesses to locate in areas which are more suited to development.
I mean would you want a 24 hour supermarket in your local strret, all those late night/early morning deliveries, the congested streets, nowhere to park, danger to other road users from extra traffic.
There's several retail parks in my area and they have reliable non peak hour bus services for those who choose to not use cars and it's free for old folks and kids.......
depends on your circumstances really
For my journey to work on the train its £42.90 a week, sometimes I travel, so say in work for 45 weeks a year = £1930.5. Sounds alot.
That is 210 miles a week, for the 45 weeks = 9450 miles a year.
So I need to be able to run a car for 1930.5/9450 = 20p a mile to break even.
We have 1 car which Mrs LLama uses all week for work, so we would need a 2nd car just for this purpose, so all the depretiation, servicing, etc would come direct out of that 20p per mile. Not to mention actuually getting the car in the first place.
Anyone reckon I'm loosing money then?
[url= http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23973890-higher-fares-plan-to-cut-commuter-overcrowding.do ]Higher fares plan to cut commuter overcrowding[/url]
A bit of bluesky/lateral/outside the box thinking from Network Rail. If demand is too high for your (public) service, reduce it by making it more expensive.
At the risk of alienating myself, part - stress part - of the issue with rail is the management.I worked at network rail and it is appallingly managed. No cost control, poor processes, total lack of commerciality. Half the people I had worked with were there from br days, had a nice pension, in a union, had free rail travel. Just a massive gravy train with a lack of understanding of the customer. My wife worked in engineering there and it was just the same.
There are lots of good people but the waste of money is shocking - the recent review of the rail system says pretty much the same thing (30 percent inefficiency etc).
+1
I work on the other side of Network Rail in respect of 3rd party investment in the railway network (acting for the Olympic Delivery Authority, Scottish Government, DfT, most PTEs, plus a load of private entities).
The network is congested and outdated, managed by a monopoly which is unable to demonstrate value for money (McNulty now proves) which is regulated by an entity weaker than wet tissue paper (since Winsor left anyway).
Doing business on or around the railway in the UK is extremely expensive. I know you all think that the train operating companies are making a killing, but think how many franchisees have disappeared over the last few years, and I know a few that are close to being binned.
If you want to see how a proper railway system is run, have a look at the Merseytravel/Merseyrail concession in Liverpool area. One of the highest customer satisfaction and performance stats in the country. Why? Properly negotiated/managed relationship between the PTE and concessionaire and as little NR interface as possible.
Vertical integration would be the best thing possible for the UK rail system. Take it back from NR and you'd instantly make it more competitive (and therefore cheaper).
i live in the suburbs - but the buses only run to 2 of the 3 major cities (all within 8 miles away) to get a bus to work i have 2 options.
- walk 1.2 miles then get the bus.
- get a bus 1.2 miles then change buses.
first bus arrives 1 minute before the bus to town, but often misses it so that means half hour wait, so it is easier to walk.
the bus fare is almost £6 which ever way you want to play it. running my small economic car (clio 60+mpg) was far cheaper. took me from door to door in my own comfort.
if the bus was cheaper i'd be inclined to put up with all the inconviniences; sharing space, arriving on someone elses schedule etc.
Many modern cars driven at non 'hair-curling' speeds will give 50mpg+ on open roads.......
With me at the wheel get in the 60s easily, my Mrs driving it get high 50s. I drive much quicker than her but a lot smoother less braking and an better constant speed. 60-63MPG in a car is easily achievable these days TJ.
If you want to see how a proper railway system is run, have a look at the Merseytravel/Merseyrail concession in Liverpool area. One of the highest customer satisfaction and performance stats in the country. Why? Properly negotiated/managed relationship between the PTE and concessionaire and as little NR interface as possible.
I live in the area covered, and as abpobve mersey rail do a good job, with second hand trains from down south, but they only have a few lines and a few dont have freight trains or other passenger trains on them, so less maintance, but the fares are cheaper due to the huge amounts of cash we give them each year, and also the huge amounts of cash the local councillors get for being on the mersey travel board.
OH AND BIKES GO FREE ON MOST TRAINS, NO NEED TO BOOK, GREAT.
My real cost per mile for my last car was 29p. That's 3 years worth of stuff, including depreciation, repairs, petrol, insurance, tyres etc.
The pricing is madness. For example Mrs CD needed to get from Bristol to Kings Lynn, changing train in London. Booked ahead it was only £26!!! much less that driving. The the second train left Kings Cross at 6pm so she was on the train with loads of commuters who had paid several times more for only a fraction of her journey!
I much prefer the train to driving but in reality it's just not practical unless you're near the beginning and end stations as the additional time and cost involved in buses and taxis but even cheap train journeys above using the car.
Rail prices are an absolute disgrace, but my local (Tory) MP doesn't seem interested. It's a vote deciding issue for me.
I'm certainly keen to cut my car use (although TJ I really would like to see some data to support your claim that motoring is subsidized), and/or to switch to something with very low emissions. In an age where oil is getting harder to extract and as a consequence much more expensive, I don't see it as unreasonable that more fuel duty revenue is diverted to support a subsidized rail network.
I can get from Edinburgh to london in 4 1/2 hrs for £100 ish return by train thats 400 miles each way - in a car that would take 7 hrs each way and cost more than that in petrol alone probably
This kind of time quote for public transport....is that door to door?
For longer journies, I guess the faff at either end becomes less significant, but for example if I wanted to get to Wembley Stadium from an outlying area of Edinburgh, I could easily add an hour onto the start of the journey and an hour onto the end, making the 4.5 hrs more like 6.5hrs.
I haven't read all of this thread, but noticed the comments about cost of running a car up above.
I did all this before on a thread ages ago and it worked out about 17p/mile total cost of running my car. And it's a 1.9TDi Ibiza.
If demand is too high for your (public) service, reduce it by making it more expensive
Do they have any other choice though?
PJM1974 this is the argument - as said above loads of folk adding up the numbers in loads of different ways
http://www.monbiot.com/2000/08/03/drivers-are-undertaxed/
http://www.monbiot.com/1990/01/01/overthrowing-the-car/
Uh oh! Warning! Warning! Monbiot alert!
Perhaps a more interesting issue is the cost of internal flights compared to rail. It's usually more of a ball ache at both ends, but its often cheaper for me to fly to London than take the train - which is just madness.
whether its direct 'subsidy' or not for motoring, I suspect the politics of it is that both the current and previous governments (or sadly any future) would not dream of antagonising yer average motorist or impacting on his perceived 'rights and freedom'- votes loss shocker!
just look at most planning applications- by far the biggest majority of comments/objections concerns 'where will we park?' 'will this stop ME from doing what I want in MY car'....etc etc...
And what must be the shockingly weak contracts set up with the rail companies, or the will to enforce them properly 😐
Its simple- people who have cars will most likely use it (why wouldnt you for the above reasons) and most people who travel on trains do so because they HAVE to. So they can charge what the hell they like, and those people have to find the cash.
on the other hand.. why should all those people walking to low paid jobs and paying tax subsidise all those people travelling by choice to well paid jobs outside of the range they can be bothered to walk.. i even understand that there is a new mode of travel called a bike..
The one drawback to my car is I can't expose myself to other people in my car. I can on public transport.
The one drawback to my car is I can't expose myself to other people in my car. I can on public transport.
Er when you say 'expose' yourself, you dont mean.........
******FLASHING WARNING********
.....do you?
Sorry TJ, I need something more solid than Monbiot. He doesn't seem to make any space for the value of road transported goods to the economy either.
The Bradbury and Nalty piece is more what I'm looking for.
As for the cost of flights compared to rail travel, the moronic politicians answer is to hike taxes on flights while allowing private companies to raise fare prices for rail transport too. All they're doing is increasing the cost of mobility. A far better solution would be to ring fence fuel duty and divert a more significant portion of it to rail and bus transport.
It will only happen when enough people make it an election issue and the party in power stands to get savaged at the polls unless they change their policy.
I think some people are under-estimating how VASTLY difficult and expensive it would be to organise a major shift away from car usage. We could probably cut by 20-30% or so pretty easily, but beyond that - very hard I reckon. Sadly.
I tend to run down the length of the bus shouting weeee with my little chap swinging like a knot in a rope
Hora - The other drawback to your car is people constantly stopping you and booking an appointment to get their roots done
The most crazy thing about trains is the pricing structure.
I need to travel from Beeston (near Nottingham) to Cardiff in a few weeks time. The cost is £61.70 return which in its self is extortionate (double driving given I have to pay the car's fixed costs anyway) but that isn't the worst bit.
The route from Beeston to Cardiff involves a change in Derby. The price from Derby to Cardif is £61.90.
So the train company has paid me 20p to travel 20% of the journey. IN this case I'm happy would but would be pretty pissed off if it were the other way round.
jfletch - MemberThe most crazy thing about trains is the pricing structure.
Indeed- deliberately confusing so that one defaults to a ticket that is not actually the cheapest- cheapest tickets are often 'hidden' in the screen menus.... Again, train companies squeezing the boundaries of their pricing contracts and regulators powerless or too weak to enforce
I looked at popping down to Birmingham for the day from Manchester.
Circa £100 on a Sat. Absolutely mental.
Circa £100 on a Sat. Absolutely mental.
eh? off peak?
I looked at popping down to Birmingham for the day from Manchester.Circa £100 on a Sat. Absolutely mental.
That's not right - for 3.5 people it might be £100, or to go in first class?
Manchester to Birmingham off peak return is £31. You can use that any time on a Saturday (or come back any off peak time within the next month). You can buy that on the day, and don't have to travel on any particular train back as long as it is within the off peak time (which is all day on a saturday).
It is worth knowing that if you go to http://nationalrail.co.uk, you can look up tickets to find out what is cheapest. There are obviously some dodgy websites out there that people get caught out by, or something. People are always quoting ridiculous figures for tickets, when a quick internet lookup would get you them for way less.
Offpeak return £32
^ good example of cheeky pricing
50 p a mile is the total cost roughly as worked out by the RAC - buying from new and doing 10 000 miles a year.
You'd have to either have more money than sense or be a ****ing moron to buy from new, or even nearly new, IMO. 13p/mile is my current diesel costs, fixed costs (MOT, tax, insurance, oil changes, basic repairs etc) come to 6-7p/mile and these generally reduce with increased milage obviously. Depreciation is practically zero, as it's way past the curve and onto the plateau.
There's just no question in it, public transport is vastly overpriced and not worth it either for single or multiple passengers in any case I've had to investigate. But then I do pick my car for economy and don't park in central london, thank god. When I commuted into Liverpool the speed was about comparable despite the train journey being quick (because of the distance between destinations and train stations) but cycling was a tad faster if going at rush hour.
My rules would suggest cycle, then car, then public transport.
Confused, so only I'm going and posting the other two people?
Like I said, better to drive there. Unless you live next to the main line station its a royal PITA.
Pity as it'd feel abit different and abit of an adventure plus I could have a couple of glasses of wine before coming back if we'd got the train.
