But it’s just not credible to compare British actions with those of the Nazis. Dead is dead I know, being killed by the “right side” is no comfort. But the scale and most importantly the intent of the Nazis puts them on a completely different scale.
But we can also consider both part of history now and treat them as such.
I was in Ypres two weeks ago, I visited the Menin Gate first in the early morning, covered in wreaths from all those that visited to pay their respects. All the within the arch, lining the stairs and above the arches inscribed with names of nearly 55,000 UK soldiers who died at the Salient but were never recovered. Other nations have monuments to their soldiers too. As we left a large group of workers went around preparing the monument for that days visitors, moving the wreaths around so the migrated to the upper levels were the oldest ones were removed.
Afterwards we walked around the town and enjoyed how nice it was, enjoying coffees and looking in the shops were Poppys are a regular feature. Before we left we visited In Flanders museum. The whole build up to the conflict was detailed, the early battles to the end of the war. The changes in uniforms to weaponry manufactured in the industrial age and its brutality. Throughout it all you progressed through interactive displays controlled by an RFID wristband that you input your details into so your language was spoken. As you moved along with the various other nationalities visiting the museum that day, many of them Europeans but also Australians, Japanese and Chinese in equally large numbers and also remembering their own who had come to fight and never returned from this land. As the displays show the war and the campaigns you see the towns and land before, during and now, the armies from both sides as well as the civilians caught up in it all. The final section details the devastation that left Ypres levelled by bombardment, the displaced population returning to rebuild their homes and the present with so much ordnance regularly being found. One of the last displays, after the volumes of books listing the names of the dead, is the pictures of the Ypres levelled and then images of it being rebuilt again to how it was before the war so that it can stand as a living memorial to the conflict. As you leave the poppy's are prevalent in the art work and the shops, including RBL, sell books and poppy's and at the exit is s large clear collection box to deposit your RFID wristband for recycling. Its full of white silicon wristbands with a large red poppy on them. You then walk out and back into the town centre to the realisation that you had been walking around the memorial all the time and it's not just the gate or the museum, it is the whole town.
The suggestion that the poppy glorifies war is ridiculous. If you feel this way go to Ypres and tell them as such although I don't think you'd be taken seriously.
As for wearing a poppy in Germany, then do so. I and many others have done for years, no one comments on it. Some may ask to look more closely at the limited edition designs. The Germans don't observe Armistice of 11 November but do have a national day of mourning marked by a bank holiday later in November. Parades from the church to the memorial with the laying of flowers mark the occasion.
The suggestion that the poppy glorifies war is ridiculous. If you feel this way go to Ypres and tell them as such although I don’t think you’d be taken seriously.
It's good as that is not what people are saying, it's more that people are using it as a badge to celebrate the heroics of war as a part of nationalistic pride. As a symbol of remembrance it's important that it stays just that.
To add I've been to Ypres and most of the Somme area, seen the memorials and the Normandy coast from WWI. I know what it's about there.
The RBL are clear on what they see it as:
The poppy is
- A symbol of Remembrance and hope
- Worn by millions of people
- Red because of the natural colour of field poppies
The poppy is NOT
- A symbol of death or a sign of support for war
- A reflection of politics or religion
- Red to reflect the colour of blood
Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories. It is not compulsory but is greatly appreciated by those it helps – our beneficiaries: those currently serving in our Armed Forces, veterans, and their families and dependants.
Anything else is probably a personal interpretation, but wide of the intention. Also, going to the RBL site I found out that Scottish poppies have 4 petals and no leaf....
When I was a kid in my parish church, we had a number of WW2 vets, one of whom was a German soldier. I always found it moving when he and a British vet would lay a wreath together.
We did it to defeat Germany.
What role did the destruction of Dresden have in the defeat of Germany?
In war you end up compromising more than your life, you compromise your conscience, your morality, your humanity. No matter which side you're on, what you 'believe' in, when you're alone with your thoughts all of this eats away at you. The guilt for surviving, the guilt at killing other humans, all of this never leaves you. You can try and ignore it, but it's always there, in the back of your mind.
Crack on and debate the legalities and morality of military decisions from decades ago, you achieve nothing apart from foaming at the mouth, mostly talking about things you know little of and could never understand, none of us could, we weren't there with the German war machine knocking on the door. The pressure on those in command, to try and win a war against a superior enemy, as soon as was viable, is hard to imagine. What I know is it's easy to become the very thing you fight, to follow them down the path of darkness. When it happens, the important thing is recognising that and to walk back from that, not to continue. Ask yourselves what you would do if you were in their shoes, tasked with winning a war. Tactical hindsight is always 20/20.
The military, it's leaders and soldiers may not be perfect, they will falter and make some absolute heinous decisions, but they will be based in the context of the moment, flawed as that may be, but the pressure from being responsible for lives other than your own can on one hand cause a detachment from consequence; you just see unit names and numbers, on the other a pressure like no other; to order soldiers to their job, knowing some will never come back, I pray that none of you ever have to shoulder that burden. I wish I never had.
The poppy was meant as symbol for unified remembrance of the pure horror of war and a time for the nation to unite and acknowledge the absolute brutal slaughter of millions of people: soldiers, civilians and those permanently damaged by war. It has been hijacked by all comers to twist it one way and the other, everyone who cares about other humans above their own self interest should wrestle the meaning back for all of those poor bastards who died and every bystander who witnessed the slaughter.
Do I wear it with pride? Not really, I wear it because the intent of it was pure, the reason was altruistic before the mouth-breathers of both sides perverted it. I wear it because it makes the old boys and girls who genuinely fought for my freedom happy one day of the year. I'll keep wearing it even after there's none left, even though I don't need it to remind myself that there were once ordinary men and women willing to do the unthinkable to give me and my family a safer future. That was their honest belief, and that's a good enough reason for me.
Very fine post Moose.
On the original question, we used to have rather a lot of servicemen stationed in Germany, together with their families, so the poppy was hardly an uncommon sight at this time of year.
Well said Moose.
Moose +1
