However, nothing on the scale and with the pure evil intent that the Germans were guilty of in the 1930’s and 40’s.
The famines caused by the British in India alone, during the 19th century killed 30 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
Next, do we need a scale of deaths to declare something bad? You must get over this many dead per year to qualify?
Part of being objective is to be able to dispassionately look at events, take being on one side or the other out of it and look at the events that took place.
From a consequentialist perspective, the British Empire achieved the same levels of human destruction as the Nazis did - whether you gas and shoot 30 million to death is no different to you starving them to death.
That puts Hitler to shame.
I think there is a defining line there, which is worse is up to you, but a defining line there might be that british atrocities were a consequence of their search for profit, hitler was really just getting started on a much more deliberate and sinister approach to genocide.
I do think one was worse than the other. But both are shameful.
So killing out of deep seated political and social conviction is worse than the cool swarve crime of killing for profit? 😀
I think I know why the British are always the baddies in movies now...
I think you missed the bit where I said hitler was just getting started. can you imagine if the 3rd reich lasted even 20 years?
France would be free of the French?
Sadly, the poppy has been hijacked up here by the uber-unionists, anyone who dares to speak against war will be deemed a snowflake, or even worse, a nationalist....
We did it to defeat Germany.
And Germany did it to defeat us.
Thinking of it in black and white terms of "we are good, Germany was bad" doesn't help prevent future wars, it just perpetuates them.
What is it with the hand wringers who make excuses for them
Has anyone made excuses for them? You don't have to be pro one side and anti the other, I don't personally feel either side should be viewed uncritically or without sympathy either. The only person "making excuses" is you with reference to the allied bombing campaign.
No one has yet explained, even with the benefit of hindsight, what other options we really had apart from total war?
I'm waiting for someone to answer this. Because in WW2 we really were the good guys, certainly in our intent. The Nazi's were an atrocity, I genuinely think if they'd prevailed the nightmare would still be happening.
I’m waiting for someone to answer this. Because in WW2 we really were the good guys, certainly in our intent. The Nazi’s were an atrocity, I genuinely think if they’d prevailed the nightmare would still be happening.
I don't disagree, but that doesn't make everything the allies did above criticism.
I’m waiting for someone to answer this.
You will be waiting a long time as they can't answer this.
It's been asked a number of times on this thread.
The reality is, the majority of Europe owe their freedom to the USA, the UK and the people of it's Commonwealth/Empire.
Without them they would now be either part of the Third Reich or the USSR.
but that doesn’t make everything the allies did above criticism.
Obviously not, but there's definitely a sniff of we were as bad as them from some posters. If you look at the actions of individuals or specific policies in isolation you'll find plenty wrong with every side in every war.
But from time to time war is the only way to defend yourself from an aggressor. WW2 was definitely one of those times. And terribly it was a war we just couldn't loose whatever the cost.
I genuinely think if they’d prevailed the nightmare would still be happening.
and
Without them they would now be either part of the Third Reich or the USSR.
My, I'd forgotten that Spain is still a fascist state, is Franco still around then?
But from time to time war is the only way to defend yourself from an aggressor. WW2 was definitely one of those times.
And no one is disputing that, they are simply saying that we were little better than the opposition.
You revisionist snowflakes ought to be grateful to the armies of the allied forces for the fact that we have free speech to discuss this sort of thing.
#WearItWithPride
My, I’d forgotten that Spain is still a fascist state, is Franco still around then?
What are you on about?
we were little better than the opposition.
Not true, Complete shite.
And no one is disputing that, they are simply saying that we were little better than the opposition.
I find it hard to believe anyone who's made even the most passing research about the Nazis could come to such a conclusion. Were weren't little better than them, we were vastly better than them.
Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.
Try telling that to Indians, Zimbabweans, Kenyans, the Irish, the Chinese, the former French Indochina, Iraqis etc etc
What are you on about?
You think that the Third Reich would still be in existence had the western allies not intervened.
Which is bollocks - because no fascist state lasts more than about 50 years.
I’d be hobbling off to a factory with a shamrock embroidered armband were it not for the glorious victory of the allies.
I find it hard to believe anyone who’s made even the most passing research about the Nazis could come to such a conclusion. Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.
Keeping this on context, the UK has committed some huge atrocities through history, we accept that and that we are not the same people that committed them.
In the same way that the people of Germany are not the people who carried out these actions.
For historical perspective to have been an Adult at the end of WWI you would be 118 years old at this point.
To have been an adult at the end of WW2 you would be 90 years old.
None of the people about today played any senior role in either war.
it celebrates all soldiers everywhere, a remembrance
Still can’t trust ‘em though mike
Without them they would now be either part of the Third Reich or the USSR.
Don't knock it. Who knows, 70 years later we may have been in a better place if that had happened.
Try telling that to Indians, Zimbabweans, Kenyans, the Irish, the Chinese, the former French Indochina, Iraqis etc etc
A lot of mistakes have been made over hundreds of years.
However, the right thing was done eventually. particularity regards to India, Zimbabwe and Kenya.
Not sure when we built factories to systematically murder people and recycle what ever of value from their carcasses?
Not sure what French Indochina has got to do with the UK?
You do know that on the Eastern Front, the German Army actually used the bodies of their enemies to improve the roads?
Do you think the UK had POW camps like what the Japanese had?
What about Oradour? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre
Don’t knock it. Who knows, 70 years later we may have been in a better place if that had happened.
FFS.
majority of Europe owe their freedom to the USA, the UK and the people of it’s Commonwealth/Empire.
erm...
you do see this, don't you ?
Do you think the UK had concentration camps like the Japanese had?
Google images - search - "Lizzie van Zyl"
Not sure what French Indochina has got to do with the UK?
We are talking about the western allies, yes?
However, the right thing was done eventually. particularity regards to India, Zimbabwe and Kenya.
Oh yes, that's alright then - genocide and murder are okay because we were just trying to be paternalistic and educate the savage bum****s. And once that was done, we saw sense and stopped finding excuses to kill them.
You think that the Third Reich would still be in existence had the western allies not intervened.
Which is bollocks – because no fascist state lasts more than about 50 years.
Roman Empire? They were around for a bit.
Saudi Arabia? They are a bit facisty.
Roman Empire? They were around for a bit.
For the times, the Roman empire was on the democratic end of the spectrum.....
We are talking about the western allies, yes?
The French did little or nothing to assist in the liberation of Europe.
Besides, I was talking about the actions the UK armed forces.
As really what stopped the germans, ultimately was the russian war for a the large part.
Yup, and our Bombing helped keep Russian in the War on our side. Stalin loved us bombing cities, and from his POW we were doing very little else to help him. The Allies were well aware that Russians could do another deal with Hitler, end the war on the Eastern Front and leave Hitler to go back west. They'd have known Hitler was going to come back their way once the UK was defeated but it would give them breathing space to massively re-arm and in the meantime Britain and Germany would have bled each other white.
We'll never know if that was necessary to keep Stalin onside, but nor did the people making the decision a the time. That's on top of all the other reasons listed above. (To put a number on one of those reasons it by the end of the War Germany was using 33pc of it's resources on Anti Aircraft weapons. Would it have been better if that resource had gone on Tanks?)
WW2 was a uniquely attritional war. It's didn't matter where you wasted your enemy away, it was all useful and for much of the war Bombing, for all it's flaws, was the only contribution we could make.
For the times, the Roman empire was on the democratic end of the spectrum…..
For the times, the British Empire was on the benign end of Imperialism.
The First Army alone of the Free French, which were involved in the liberation of Europe - was comprised of 130,000 men.
So whilst I enjoy bashing the French, saying the Free French did little or nothing is balls.
For the times, the British Empire was on the benign end of Imperialism.
Yes! they were very kind, especially that Briggs fella, giving all those funny foreign chaps 'new villages' to live in!
For the times, the British Empire was on the benign end of Imperialism.
Apart from all those other countries that didn't engage in imperialism, or were actively opposed to it - like the Americans were. And it was a detriment to the world when they decided to go British on the world in the Philippines and a lot of other places post WW2.
I find it hard to believe anyone who’s made even the most passing research about the Nazis could come to such a conclusion. Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.
Keep the quote in context, I was talking about the carpet bombing of German industrial cities Vs the carpet bombing of British industrial cities.
But even out of context, as alluded to by others British history is littered with pretty appalling incidents.
The point I was trying to make was, blind patriotism and the idea that our side was always in the right does nothing to hold those in power or on the frontline to account.
The First Army alone of the Free French, which were involved in the liberation of Europe – comprised of 130,000 men.
130k men is about 10 Divisions. There were 250 German Divisions in the East at one point. More French people fought for the Axis than fought for the Allies. Which isn't to suggest any blame whatsoever. When a country is occupied for years people are going to find it very difficult to avoid helping their invaders and very hard to contribute to their allies. Especially if they're scared of the communists.
Also don't forget the German Army was 90pc unmechanized at the start of WW2. German soldiers marched. The vehicles that allowed for a speedy invasion of Russia were largely captured French vehicles which the French failed to destroy when they surrendered.
France: Overall nothing to be too ashamed of, overall nothing to be too proud of IMHO.
So whilst I enjoy bashing the French, saying the Free French did little or nothing is balls.
The Vichy french had a similar sized army. 130,000 men is next to nothing in the bigger picture.
Apart from all those other countries that didn’t engage in imperialism, or were actively opposed to it – like the Americans were. And it was a detriment to the world when they decided to go British on the world in the Philippines and lot of other places post WW2.
The Americans? What about Mexico and Texas?
You do know the Americans were in the Philippines before WW1?
Vichy Frances standing army was 75,000.
The Free French numbered 320,000 during their push into Germany in the final stages of the war.
So I get the feeling that's shite as well.
You do know the Americans were in the Philippines before WW1?
Yes, which pretty much initiated their inexorable slide into British style imperialism.
didn’t engage in imperialism, or were actively opposed to it – like the Americans were.
Japan in 1850, Cuba to name but two.
Have a listen:
https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-49-the-american-peril/
Did more Frenchmen fight for the Axis than for the Allies? I thought so, but there's a thread about it here for anyone who's interested:
I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.
So Globuchul, as there are people around in living memory of the Mau Mau uprising - are you embarrassed by British atrocities.- or are you going to keep up with the apologism?
70 years later we may have been in a better place if that had happened.
The way the Nazi's were planning to make Europe a better place was via "the hunger plan". Google that and come back and explain why Europe would be 'better' if that had happened.
– are you embarrassed by British atrocities.- or are you going to keep up with the apologism?
You could go on for ever trawling history for atrocity. The Mau Mau were far from clean themselves, nobody ever is in a conflict.
But it's just not credible to compare British actions with those of the Nazis. Dead is dead I know, being killed by the "right side" is no comfort. But the scale and most importantly the intent of the Nazis puts them on a completely different scale.
Good points Taxi, but globuchuls ability to point out where Germans should be embarrassed but avoid any kind of embarrassment on his part is symptomatic of the malaise that blights the British view of it's place in the world.
The British frame everything with "but we're the good guys", which is clearly not true. It damages our ability to engage positively with the rest of the global community.
