[Closed] Can I be forced to use the pool car?

for short trips

walk?

Once she drives a proper car she'll love it. This could get expensive.

Pretty sure they can, where I work you need a good reason not to use the pool car if it's available (and not being confident in driving it wouldn't be considered a good reason).

probably covering their own back .

is your leon covered for business purposes ?

Apparently cocaine helps with confidence issues. Just tell her to rack up a massive line on the dash of the Merc before each journey.

Of course they can ...
Their time, their tasks, their vehicle ...

Maybe you wife needs more driving training?

it's kind of the point of pool cars. and yes it's up to them how they work as a company.

Cost saving (and arse-covering) by the company. Cheaper to use pool car and as asked above, do you have business insurance for her car?

yes they can - can she not choose to do the tasks when the pool car is in use and thereby have to use her own?

Has she explained to HR?
Perhaps explain the confidence think and ask for training or offer to do it in her own car and not claim mileage?

Speak to HR they dont want her to crash either

I'm not sure they can, but they can just not pay expenses for using your own vehicle, so wifey can either burn company fuel, or accept fuel/wear and tear on her own car.
edit - bear in mind, business insurance will still be needed.

Your wife will be covered by the companies insurance if she has an accident. If she does have an accident using your car then I assume you dont have the relevant "business" insurance?
As above I think unless it is an unusual vehicle then she simply needs to use the company one.

It's a well documented phenomenon that the best way to increase confidence in an activity is to avoid doing it wherever possible. (-:

In seriousness, would some form of extra driver training help? Would be beneficial both from the point of view of driving the company beast, and also generally on the roads in her own car.

Has she considered alternative motives? Do they have trackers in the pool cars?

You can refuse to use the pool car if you consider it unsafe or not roadworthy.

You can refuse to use the pool car if you consider it unsafe or not road worthy

I'd love to see how that conversation would go. 😉

We just had an email go around asking us to send in license and MOT details for personal cars used for business. Something to do with 'elf n safety and the company being responsible for your vehicle. Looks like some 3rd party company is managing the whole thing. Guess they wouldn't have to do this if they mandated pool car use.

I doubt they can force her to use the pool car, but if she uses her own then by providing a pool car and asking her to use it any liability will probably move from them to her. As above, if she hasn't got business cover then she's probably at risk of no payout in the event of a claim.

Personally I'd use the pool car, if it takes a little while to get used to... oh well.

if she hasn't got business cover then she's probably at risk of [s]no payout[/s] [b]prosecution[/b] in the event of a claim.

Driving without insurance, innit.

Apart from using the pool car, she could continue to use her own and not claim mileage.

But tbh, why doesn't she just say she's not happy driving a big car - and await their response.

"if she hasn't got business cover then she's probably at risk of no payout prosecution in the event of a claim.

Driving without insurance, innit. "

unlikely - she will have 3rd party cover but will recieve no payout in respect to any damage to her car. but dont let that stop you believing the uninsured thing. - what she will also be subject to though is the insurance company taking legal action to recover the third party pay out for non declaration

unlikely - she will have 3rd party cover but will recieve no payout in respect to any damageto her car. but dont let that stop you believing the uninsured thing.

Employer indemnity?

dont let that stop you believing the uninsured thing.

TBH, I really should have put a question mark at the end of that comment.

I'm surprised if it's not the case though; if you're insured for a given purpose (I vaguely remember it being something like "social, domestic and pleasure, and to and from work") and you're using the car for other purposes (business), you're not insured. Are you? Live and learn if so.

I did work with a guy many years ago who refused on the grounds that he'd bought a car with airbags and a higher safety rating than the pool car that was available. He was allowed to carry on using his own car.

Our onsite vehicles were death traps as they were never MOT'd as they never left private land. I had carbon monoxide poisoning on one occasion and the windscreen fell in on us on another as we were driving.

Who, **** me. Didn't realise this was such a hot topic.

Thanks to all responses, bit more of an outline is that she's the company receptionist so gets all the 'dogsbody' jobs. Never moans about this but does seem to be increasingly sent out for 'work'.(presuming that includes getting the bosses/employee's dinners etc/birthday cards n presents)

Anyway, the Pool car is a Big Auto Mercedes(that the only detail I have about it but I believe its an E Class). Now being a bloke I cant empathise with her regarding driving other cars etc as we seem to just jump in them and drive but with Mrs AD at 5'2" I can sort of understand where she is coming from being intimidated by such a large vehicle.

Sounds like she's gotta bite the bullet and jump in it though. I'll maybe suggest using it at the weekends so then we can burn the company fuel for our own pleasure.

Our work prefer people to use pool car / hire car whenever possible. reasons are:

- They are paying for the pool car anyway, why pay wou £0.45 a mile?
- They can get hire cars very cheaply
- One of the mitigations on the risk assessment is "ensure vehicle is properly maintaned etc". Difficult to claim if employee is using own car
- They provide insurance

Tbh most people prefer it. No wear on own car, no insurance worries. Only folk that don't are milking the milleage allowance. Is it genuinely just that she doesn't want to drive the pool car or is part of £££?

A) Get business insurance, but accept her employers won't pay her fuel.

B) Use the company car provided, save her car from wear/tear, and don't pay for fuel.

I'd like to see her reaction when you suggest "extra driver training" 👿

she needs to go for it. It will be a useful exercise from the point of view of getting her over her fear of bigger cars, and increasing her driving confidence, and all at someone elses risk too.

I'll maybe suggest using it at the weekends so then we can burn the company fuel for our own pleasure.

I'll maybe suggest using it at the weekends so then we can burn the company fuel for our own pleasure.

only if you want to be taxed on it..

On the other hand, the company cars could be those awful Toyota Hybrid things like we use. I use them a fair bit because I cycle in most days so off site visits need a car but god I hate them.

Well you'll all be pleased to know she has now read this thread, her reaction to the 'extra training' was as expected....Cheeky barstewards!!...thank god shes the other side of emails.

As for whether she has genuine anxiety about driving the much larger car or if she's coining it in from the mileage allowance. I know 100% its the first, she doesn't 'make' loads of money doing the miles as there isn't enough mileage. Her last months expenses were £13.33 (31 miles @ £0.43/mile) Its pocket change!!

You still never mentioned whether she had business insurance.

We have two rates of mileage. The higher one (45p) is paid when the only option is to use your own car, the lower rate (25p) when there is a cheaper option (pool car or public transport) but you choose to use your own car for whatever reason.

It might be worth your missus asking if something like this might apply to her.

Has she considered alternative motives? Do they have trackers in the pool cars?

What's a cereal bar got to do with this?

DrP

Its an E class its not really that big.

TooTall - Member

You still never mentioned whether she had business insurance.

Nope she hasn't, little point for the mileage she does.

somewhatslightlydazed - Member

We have two rates of mileage. the lower rate (25p) when there is a cheaper option (pool car or public transport) but you choose to use your own car for whatever reason.

It might be worth your missus asking if something like this might apply to her.

I'll suggest this to her. Would be the most sensible option

Surfer, you're not 5'2" are you?

[quote=almightydutch said]TooTall - Member
You still never mentioned whether she had business insurance.
Nope she hasn't, little point for the mileage she does.

Little point ? Fine until there's an accident and the insurers ask if she was using the car for business purposes.

Its an E class its not really that big.

All relative, isn't it. It's not in comparison to, say, a double-decker bus or a Boeing 7474, but it's huge compared to a Leon.

To be fair re: the "cheeky" comment, the suggestion of extra training isn't implying that she can't drive; rather that if you're not particularly confident in an area then a bit of coaching might improve this.

We've discussed this before. Plenty of people would jump(*) at a bike skills course from Jedi or similar, but suggest a car skills course and some folk come over all affronted.

(* - ho ho!!)

Last time I drove a pool car I rolled it and left it on it's side in a ditch somewhere near Ongar. In my defense, I had only passed my test the day before and it was a notorious accident spot. However, I was driving at night for the first time and just didn't see the corner and drove onto a village green without even trying to turn. A large oak tree and a drainage ditch stopped by progress rather promptly...........

allthepies - Member
Little point ? Fine until there's an accident and the insurers ask if she was using the car for business purposes.

Personal car doing what normal people do...hardly a call for business insurance. We live on the edge don't we?

Cougar, if there was any good driving courses out there then yes it may be a great idea. Sadly there is no 'Jedi' or the driving world.
She certainly wouldn't pay for the training herself so its out the question anyway.

If she's driving for work, in a car without business insurance, then she is on dodgy grounds anyway. Unless your insurance says that you're covered 3rd party for business use somewhere in the small print, you aren't driving with the right cover. If you get caught, it's a couple of hundred quid and 6 points. That's why the police stop pizza delivery people for insurance all the time. I don't find it adds much to my insurance personally, maybe £30 a year or something.

And if she is scared of driving a big vehicle for work, then she should get her extra training if they want her to drive it as part of her job. It isn't a cheeky suggestion - if you don't have a particular skill, then getting training to acquire it is a sensible thing to do, rather than just thinking that you never require any training because you did a very limited test 20 years ago and that anyone suggesting otherwise is a cheeky bugger.

Personal car doing what normal people do...hardly a call for business insurance. We live on the edge don't we

Just make sure she doesn't crash it badly on the way to the post office with a load of work parcels.

While I understand all the implications of the 'business class' insurance, there are a few on here that are missing the point.

Last month she did 31 miles in 20 days of work. The vast majority of this is going to the local post office or picking up lunch for other staff.
So if you pick up a lunch for your workmate then you require business class insurance? Do me a favour!
Pizza delivery drivers are a wee bit different aren't they, they are actively working from their vehicle...hence needing business insurance.

I do approx. 200 miles per year for work. Still have to have business insurance.

If i was picking up lunch for a colleague i wouldn't need it, but then it wouldn't be something i could claim mileage for either

There is a big difference (legally) between:

"visiting the post office for the boss, posting packages to clients"

and

"visiting the post office for the boss, posting a personal letter once a week, and collecting some lunch for a workmate and yourself"

1 is regarded as "business use", 2 is regarded as "personal use"

Last month she did 31 miles in 20 days of work. The vast majority of this is going to the local post office or picking up lunch for other staff.

Doesn't matter, if you do ANY mileage at all for the company in your own car it needs to be insured for business purposes.

Even if it's only 2 miles to the post office, you can still have an accident and when the insurance company find out that she'd "just nipped out" on company business, they'll refuse to pay out.

My workplace is really hot on this kind of thing, we have to supply insurance paperwork, copy of driving licence etc every year.

If she is claiming miles for it then its work and she needs business insurance.

If its not work then she shouldn't be claiming miles for it. Can't have it both ways.

In scenario 2 you wouldn't expect to be paid mileage though. Paid mileage=business use

There is a big difference (legally) between:

D0NK - Member

There is a big difference (legally) between:
doing work business
and
doing work business with some personal stuff aswell?

That's how I read it too. She's been paid since they cancelled the daily post office pick up. Last 9 months has been fine with expenses etc...I think someone in HR just wanted something to do this morning.

almightydutch - Member
Surfer, you're not 5'2" are you?
POSTED 35 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Cars get bigger as people get smaller?

A long time ago so may not be relevant any more.

I got picked up by this chap in a company car, and Astra I think. We then drove about 600 miles in total with him (he wouldn't let me drive) screaming the nuts off it, spinning the wheels everywhere, hitting kerbs, tailgating, going backwards at 30mph+, doing well over a ton forwards, etc etc. He even hit a wall once. His justification? Company car innit.

It was only when we returned to the office and he dropped it off at the pool that I found out *he'd just taken the car*!!! The pool car guys were wondering where it was so we weren't even insured for it.

The car looked really sad when we left it.

If she's being paid mileage then she needs business insurance. Just like others above have already said.

All relative, isn't it. It's not in comparison to, say, a double-decker bus or a Boeing 7474, but it's huge compared to a Leon.

No I'm not 5"2 but lots of people are and I see them driving vehicles of various sizes. I dont think your height necessarily dictates the maximum vehicle size that you can drive.

My #2 example above was implying she could not claim for mileage, just doing her boss a nice favour, without expecting to get paid for it.

Occasionally I will drop a business letter in a postbox on my cycle home.

I think someone in HR just wanted something to do this morning.

by looking out for your wife and ensuring that she is properly covered in the event of a mishap whilst working?

They are doing the right (legal, business and moral) thing by her. Get over it.

"No I'm not 5"2 but lots of people are and I see them driving vehicles of various sizes. I dont think your height necessarily dictates the maximum vehicle size that you can drive. "

this - my mothers 5ft and often although not her job ends up driving double decker and bendy busses between depots.

How ever i can empithise with your wife in the whole E class thing - to drive it does feel a very very wide car. Id sooner drive a transit down a narrow road than my parents E coupe.

I think your wife needs to get a grip and drive the pool car, loads of small petite women drive huge 4x4 and other big cars.

Sorry to be blunt but if she is not a confident driver maybe she needs extra training to boost her confidence and ability? Is she a new driver and lacking the miles under her belt to be confident ?

Don't get me wrong about the mrs, she could benefit from a 'get over yourself' slap frequently...although rather you than me try that.

I don't think she'd have an issue with training...if her work paid for it but that's not gonna happen. Why should she have to pay?
The arguments about size of vehicle are almost fair enough but Trail rat hit the nail on the head. Its not the size of the vehicle that's the issue, its the perceived size when inside the car.

TooTall - Member

I think someone in HR just wanted something to do this morning.

by looking out for your wife and ensuring that she is properly covered in the event of a mishap whilst working?

They are doing the right (legal, business and moral) thing by her. Get over it.

Why should she have to pay?

Because she needs something to boost her confidence and ability, no? Are you happy with her driving around all nervously? Doesn't seem very safe to me.

Really, this is unrelated to the work issue. She doesn't need training because she's driving a bigger car, she needs training because she's driving.

"almightydutch - Member
Don't get me wrong about the mrs, she could benefit from a 'get over yourself' slap frequently...although rather you than me try that."

Is she still reading this thread?

flippinheckler - Member
I think your wife needs to get a grip and drive the pool car, loads of small petite women drive huge 4x4 and other big cars.

Most of the people I've seen driving huge 4x4s and other big cars dont have a clue how wide their vehicle is, or where reverse gear is.

Funny how in the last 9 months they haven't cared about this

Funny how it took them 9 months to realise that

a) one of their employees was driving round on company business without the correct insurance

b) one of their employees has been claiming mileage for personal miles
(delete as appropriate)

Strangely my wifes gran was only 5' but hated small cars, her fave was a Merc 300 despite only just seeing over the dash!!

On the claiming mileage thing IIRC the only loophole for business insurance is if like me you get called out into work out of hours?

I'll maybe suggest using it at the weekends so then we can burn the company fuel for our own pleasure.

only if you want to be taxed on it..

No, it's still a pool car, just gets disproportionate use by one person.

Last month she did 31 miles in 20 days of work. The vast majority of this is going to the local post office or picking up lunch for other staff.
So if you pick up a lunch for your workmate then you require business class insurance? Do me a favour!
Pizza delivery drivers are a wee bit different aren't they, they are actively working from their vehicle...hence needing business insurance.

That's why they ask you what your job is and how many miles you do. Mine added about £8 to the policy. I imagine pizza delivery mopeds must be borderline uninsurable.

I expect most of us to get headhunted by large legal firms by the morning.

Once she drives a proper car she'll love it. This could get expensive

Deserves some consideration that!

...and the issue about insurance is not necessarily for you good lady, or the third party, but the limitation of the firm getting their buttocks sued off as she is undertaking their bidding....which I believe is the employer indemnity clause mentioned earlier. By me. 'cos I'm always right*

*not proven.

Last month she did 31 miles in 20 days of work. The vast majority of this is going to the local post office or picking up lunch for other staff.
So if you pick up a lunch for your workmate then you require business class insurance? Do me a favour!
Pizza delivery drivers are a wee bit different aren't they, they are actively working from their vehicle...hence needing business insurance.

My employer won't pay mileage for getting to courses or visiting other colleges, unless you've proven you have business use included in your insurance. It became a 'thing' a year or two ago.

Same for my wife's employer. It cost nothing for her to add it.

I'll have words with her when I get back. A few points for me to raise with her. Starting off with its only a car you silly bint (nothing like setting the mood straightaway)
Along with a few other suggestions and thank you all for those.

She's confident enough in her own car but struggles to be confident immediately in a 'new' car. In fact she drives like an arse sometimes but heyho we wont go down that route with all the '31mph is breaking the law types on here'
Davidtaylforth is bang on, yes you do see lots and lots of petite women driving around in Chelsea tractors....and YES they have no clue how big/wide/where reverse is etc.
For her, the Seat Leon (2009 1.9TDI) is a proper car, its certainly an upgrade from the 12 year old Golf she was driving and the 8 year old Corsa before that.

Seems like someone in HR did a course recently and realised the potential for financial penalties to the employer.

Its a shame to loose 45p a mile though isn't it!

Seems like someone in HR did a course recently and realised the potential for financial penalties to the employer.

It's the liability they're potentially picking up that they're worried about - if you extrapolate it a bit then you're really going down the route that if you're traveling on company business and, despite them retiring you to have suitable transport, you are injured in an accident then they can be liable and add such might have to pay under an employers' liability type claim.

As people have said, it doesn't matter that the journey is short. If she doesn't have cover she's breaking the law. Technically, even if she doesn't even divert off her route home to drop the banking off, it's still business use and needs at least Class 1.

MrOvershoot - that's commuting. As long as it's to and from your usual place of work.

As with all this stuff, speak to your insurer if you're not sure as interpretations vary. If you've bought the cheapest possible policy, good luck with finding clear answers and getting your claim paid...

Rich_s
Your friendly insurer 😉

I guessed it was as our usual place of work!

Great fun already 🙂

The extra training comments really mean a more advanced driving course of the kind normally provided by employers. They are very good and a lot more people could do with going on them.

Insurance, if your company has an ounce of common sense then they should have a copy of the license for everyone, insurance & MOT cert for any vehicle that people are using for business. The employer has a duty of care in that respect to check these things. No business insurance no use of your own car. Having never paid more than a few quid it's worth having for the day you actually use it. Your car may be insured but not for what you are doing in it.

If there is a car paid for and sitting there then that should be used first. Simple economy there.

In companies if you make a rule - stick to the rule. As soon as Mrs whoever can drive her car not the pool car then everyone else has an excuse. For a few people mileage is a nice little earner.

If she is claiming miles for it then its work and she needs business insurance.

If its not work then she shouldn't be claiming miles for it. Can't have it both ways.

Spot on..

Why on earth would you risk you're own insurance for about £13 a month.

Man up and drive the Merc woman.

Funny how in the last 9 months they haven't cared about this

Perhaps they were also ignorant of the law. As you were until you raised it on a cycling forum. It happens you know.

I suspect the biggest issue for the company is corporate manslaughter. If your wife was to have an accident with a fatality and there was any fault with the car or incorrect insurance the company can face an unlimited fine.

We have some employees who use their own vehicle and they must provide copies of MOT, service records and evidence of regular fluid and tyre depth checks before they can use for company business.

Chris

We've had a good chat and she is going to call her insurance and get the least amount of business cover she can get.
Although further on from this, the question was asked yesterday what happens if the pool car isn't available....the answer she got was 'Use your own car'
So all of this and she still gets told to use her own. Minimal business cover will be added by end of day. Still effing barmy!!!!