[Closed] CAMRA - We've won, haven't we?

Now it’s brewed back in Henley it may well be a better pint..

I had once when we were camping in the area a while ago. Quite pleasant to my tastebuds.

I vary in what styles I drink, we've got the excellent Twickenham Ales round the corner who supply a few local pubs but also a couple of pubs run by Big Smoke.

I was having this very conversation with MrsIHN yesterday afternoon as we were having a cheeky afternoon pint, and, to be honest, I disagree. It’s now reeeally rare to get anything under 4%, and still pretty rare to get anything under 4.5%

I am fortunate to live in the SE

In drinking terms perhaps...

I like to focus on the positives so ignore the lack of hills, overcrowding & crippling house prices 😂

🙂

I worked as a brewer for one of only a few brewpubs back in the late 80s / early 90s. CAMRA really was a big deal then, and along side SIBA, it has been partially responsible for the glut and range of small breweries of the last 20 years.

I’m not a great fan of the extreme “craft beer IPAs”, to me it’s gone past brewing good beer, past the experimental phase, and now into the emperors new clothes. How many mad ingredients we pack into one beer? I had one the tasted like Toilet Duck.

The last beer festival I went to the CAMRA bar person was complaining that there were too many golden ales and citras, not enough dark chewy winter ales. This was in July! She also complained that too many beers were too Thornbridge-y. Probably because Jaipur had won beer of the year, again.

I had one the tasted like Toilet Duck.

I've a can of Brewdog Parma Violets in the fridge. I'm going to make somebody else drink it on NYE as a forfeit...

I am fortunate to live in the SE

In drinking terms perhaps…

Horrible flat beer they serve down there in stupid glasses.  Up here real ale is everywhere and delicious and served properly  in proper glasses 🙂

I am amused by folk cpomplaining that although there is loads of choice they don't like many of them!  Back to the days of McEwans for you boy - no choice other than bad beer or no beer

Breweries like harviston now look to me like big business - their stuff is everywhere

Never understood the popularity of Brewdog, their beer is shite as is their Manchester bar and they screw their workers too and won't recognise a union. Steam, piss and all that.

Totally agree about Brewdog, but they seem to have ardent fans a bit like Alpkit in the outdoors world or Putoline in the mucky chain lube world.

Not being snarky, but I wonder if Brewdog's devotees came to ale through the company, or were real ale drinkers already?

Brewdog, their beer is shite

All of them? Agreed that some of their mass market stuff is absolute dishwater (I'm looking at you Indie) but some are proper gems.

Not being snarky, but I wonder if Brewdog’s devotees came to ale through the company, or were real ale drinkers already?

Used to drink Youngs and Breakspears almost exclusively, but Brewery location changes and the Brewdog* link have got me into a much greater variation of styles and breweries.

*I'm a shareholder from round 1.

I can weigh in on Brewdog - their beer was once good but things change. They got big but tried to retain their ethos and it failed big time. Instead to being rule breakers they pretty much stand shoulder to shoulder with every other big brewer.

They have definitely brought a lot of people into the glorious world of real and craft ale but it doesn’t take much experimentation outside of their brand to realise there is plenty of tastier alternatives.

I know the early punk ipa was what took me from drinking OK beers (Doombar, Hen etc) to enjoying more pale hoppy things and IPA. I’ve dived deep into strong double ipa or neipa territory and still enjoy those but honestly gone full (ish] circle and now like a good 4-5 percent hoppy pale on hand pull.

Brewdog appeals because beers like Punk IPA and Hazy Jane are and cheap, nicer than lager and available everywhere. Craft beer for the people is what they say - in my opinion everything they are doing is exactly what they planned from the start. Just a shame they decided to make their best beers weaker and shitter then produce a bunch more shitty beers to go with them.

(Also a Brewdog shareholder from an early round)

I worked as a brewer for one of only a few brewpubs back in the late 80s / early 90s.

As a Bitter drinker this was probably one of the best times to drink, except in Scotland obviously, consolidation in the industry has led to loss of variety especially among the weaker ones, which I prefer, and you hardly see a traditional mild anymore. I miss towns or cities being dominated by a local traditional brewer.

Still a big fan of Brakspear, whose products are mainly still produced at the Wychwood brewery in Witney, they produce a perfect 3.4% bitter.

Not a fan of most craft beer, too expensive, too strong and overhopped - and if I wanted citrus I would add a slice of lemon.

Most of the breweries we use regularly (e.g. Ilkley, Hambleton, Coniston, Saltaire) offer a wide range of beers that includes at least one (sometimes more) with less than 4% alcohol (Bluebird, Mary Jane etc), an amber ale, a stout… The choice has never been so good. What’s more of a problem around here is the viability of local pubs in the face of economies of scale (pubcos) and declining footfall.

As I understand from friends who brew getting a depth of flavour eg hoppy ipa into a lower strength beer is harder then a higher strength.

One could, possibly slightly, but not entirely, unfairly, rephrase that as

“we have to put loads of sugar in to balance the crazy amount of hops we use”,

or indeed

“they have to be strong to taste of anything but bitterness”

There's no (added) sugar in beer! Also hops only add bitterness if you put them in early. Late addition or dry hops, which is where people are adding crazy amounts, don't affect the bitterness.

My current favourite homebrew has a fairly bonkers amount of hops (single hopped with Citra) as I was trying to get close to a beer that I like from a local brewery. Really happy with it, certainly loads of hop flavours in it (very fruity), but, again, not bitter, because all the hops went in at the end and the bitterness doesn't get extracted.

The choice has never been so good

Yup.

However the buyouts, amalgamations and corporate cost cutting will **** some of it up!

The choice in most pubs now is amazing. Those bemoaning that many beers aren’t to their personal liking seem to have forgotten the days of no choice at all.

And

What’s more of a problem around here is the viability of local pubs in the face of economies of scale (pubcos) and declining footfall.

I'm seeing the opposite of the former above, probably due to the latter. Many rural pubs, and plenty local breweries of all scales, but a lot of empty taps in the pubs.

Popped in to one semi-regular recently, prices have reduced considerably, but only 1 ale on tap. We were the only visitors on a Saturday lunchtime. I only hope they make it through to the spring when things may pick up.

I feel extremely fortunate to live not too from Lewes in East Sussex, in beer terms at least, Harveys is the dominant real ale in these parts and what a beer it is, whenever i travel around the UK i always make a point of trying the local real ale, and whilst there are many great ales around the country few are as great as Harveys best bitter (I may be biased). We also have a plethora of other excellent breweries, Darkstar and Arundel spring to mind and the number of micro breweries is stagering.

Fortunately for me i like most beers from dark ales to super hoppy pales, i'm also fortunate enough to have my own brewing equipment and can knock out 5 gallons of ale for a few pounds. I haven't drunk poor beer in many years.

It's not just small breweries but small bars too. Friendly independently run places, not overcrowded. Lovely. Within a few miles of me, just south of Stockport is a huge selection of both small breweries and small bars.

Harveys is the dominant real ale in these parts and what a beer it is, whenever i travel around the UK i always make a point of trying the local real ale, and whilst there are many great ales around the country few are as great as Harveys best bitter (I may be biased).

You really are. Harveys is decent but it's nothing special, at all. And yes I've had it in pubs in Lewes/Brighton.

There’s no (added) sugar in beer!

There definitely is in some. It's a pretty standard thing for homebrewers certainly.

Harveys is the dominant real ale in these parts and what a beer it is, whenever i travel around the UK i always make a point of trying the local real ale

Lovely beer, big fan

Those posters who lament the passing of below 4% best bitter beers in favour of the newer over hopped pine fresh deodorants, the best selling beer from around these parts is Wye Valley HPA. OK, it’s slightly over 4%, but barely. It’s been the mainstay of the range for the last 35 years.

When I started brewing the best seller was Quaff Ale at 3.8%, a cross between old fashioned pale mild ale and a best bitter. We used to brew 15 barrels a week, 4300 pints a week for one brewpub. Plus two other brews that hardly sold. Both darker stronger brews. The strong ale was 5.6% and you needed to chew it.

3 years later the Hereford branch opened and I brewed Quaff Ale, Blackbeard’s Ale at 4.5%, a dark bitter chocolate ale that thought it was a pale ale, and Old Hereford Bull, 5% IPA, somewhere between officers and troop strength IPA. I did 20barrels a week between the 3. Occasionally a stout / Porter brew at 4.2%.

Golden days.

As a long tìme drinker of pale ales I find many of the current crop of "craft" beers ridiculously hoppy and expensive. I haven't been to the pub at all now for over 2 years. Most pubs are too expensive for me to visit on anything other than an occasional basis.
For me the attraction of a pub was good craic combined with affordable beer that you could have a few pints of without falling over So if you have a pub with good regulars and a decent pint of Deuchars ipa I'm yer man

There’s no (added) sugar in beer!

It's more common than you might think.

There definitely is in some. It’s a pretty standard thing for homebrewers certainly.

Nope. Some homebrewers, especially extract / kit brewers do add sugar to increase the alcohol content. Most homebrewers will use sugar for secondary fermentation (the bit that adds the fizz). In either case, the sugar is entirely consumed and turned to alcohol, leaving no sweet taste behind.

It's (almost) impossible to add sugar to beer to sweeten it, even after it's "ready". The yeast will just consume it.

Sweet-tasting beers can be created in 2 ways. One is to use sugars which yeast won't consume (e.g. lactose in milk stouts). The other is to make a strong beer. There will be residual sugars left over by the yeast (complex natural sugars from the malt which can't be consumed by the yeast). The more malt you start with, the stronger the beer and the more sugars get left over. You can also use Caramel malts, which do leave a sugary taste behind.

For me the attraction of a pub was good craic combined with affordable beer that you could have a few pints of without falling over So if you have a pub with good regulars and a decent pint of Deuchars ipa I’m yer man

You can also use Caramel malts, which do leave a sugary taste behind.

So in conclusion, there is added sugar in beer.

Oh my god… @bigblackshed memories… The Barrels, Jolly Rodger, The Victory. The ale drinking of my youth. Honourable mention to The Sun for lethal scrumpy.

@kelvin

The Jolly Roger was my brewpub.

I’d realised that from the beer names! Apologies for the affectionate misspelling.

Never understood the popularity of Brewdog, their beer is shite as is their Manchester bar

It's lazy and easy to moan about Brewdog, but if you're of a mind to actually experiment with different beers and flavours then a lot of their stuff is really nice (speaking as a man who graduated from drinking Deuchars and Caledonian 80 at Uni to having my head blown off by West Coast Canadian IPAs before coming back around to light 4.5%ers).

Their pub in St Andrews is also a reliable and good place for a seat and good food, we go as a family most times we're passing.

Somebody commented about the decline of local pubs which made me laugh, perhaps it's just a stage of life but the idea of going to a pub for a pint just seems laughable right now, who has that sort of time?? 😂

Finally a topic I know something about.

I wrote my MA thesis about CAMRA and years later published a magazine article in Australia based on it. See below.

I've never been a member, but I'm pretty sure that without it there would never have been the quality and diversity of beers available today. We'd be stuck in a kind of Budweiser-infused distopia.

That's not just because of the direct impact on the domestic industry and drinking culture, but the effect it had overseas. Many of the early US craft brewers drew inspiration from our beers, but adapted them to their hop varietals and palates. They also resurrected historical beer styles like the 'original traditional' IPA. The 3.6% versions we were drinking were pale imitators of the IPA of previous centuries. We're re-inheriting modernised versions of these styles now.

In the 1960s Which magazine ran an article showing how the strength of beer was declining dramatically, but it wasn't required to display the ABV then. Pre WW1 a 6% stout would have been standard.

Many of the Australian brewers I've interviewed have said they were influenced by British beers.

So beers evolve.

https://www.brewsnews.com.au/2010/12/20/the-defenders-of-beer/

“Original historic IPA” the Americans copied were the 19th century beers brewed for the Indian based regiments of the British Army.

It was brewed at around 1070 or 1080 with an ABV of 7-8% and then massively over hopped. It was transported from the UK to India, the hops and ABV were preservatives, then knocked back with local water to around 3-3.5% for the troops.

On board the Royal Navy ships the Officers had access to the beer lockers and would help themselves to the “officers” strength beer.

Hence why there are two versions of historical IPA.

So your saying for the authentic IPA we should ask for half a pint of a new world ale in a pint glass and fill up with tap?

Not that I get to pubs all that much but at my local I haven’t really noticed the arms race in ABV...

...When I started going to pubs it wouldn’t be unusual to see something like London Pride, but also an awful lot of Waddingtons

So less of an arms race and more Top Trumps?

So your saying for the authentic IPA we should ask for half a pint of a new world ale in a pint glass and fill up with tap?

It’s a bit more nuanced than that, but if you want IPA as brewed for the Indian based troops, then yes, knock yourself out. It’ll taste bloody awful, which is why the troops always clamoured after the pre-knocked back “officers” brew.

Greenking IPA is fairly accurate as an example of original IPA. It’s bloody awful.

Sorry @bigblackshed but that's furphy. And it's been perpetuated by many.

Read some of Martyn Cornell's (Britain's preeminent beer historian) work:

Myth 2: “IPAs started life as a British export to their troops stationed out in India back in the 1800s.”

Fact: Pale ale was around from at least the 17th century and pale ales were being exported to India from at least the 1780s, if not before. And they weren’t drunk by the troops, either those of the East India Company’s forces or the later British Army forces in India, who much preferred porter, and continued drinking porter in India right through to the end of the 19th century. The pale ales exported by Hodgson, Bass, Allsopp and others were drunk by the middle and upper classes among the Europeans in India, the military officers and the “civil servants”, the civilians who worked for the East India Company, trading, administrating and collecting taxes.

https://zythophile.co.uk/2011/08/04/four-ipa-myths-that-need-to-be-stamped-out-for-ipaday/

They wouldn't taste like the new world ales because the ingredients are different. High alpha hops, etc.

I’ve noticed a big drift towards hazy beers, dropping using isinglass to accommodate vegans and maybe a welcome cut in costs

It's not just a reduction in findings, but an intentional style. New England Pale Ale, Hazy Pales, Juicy Pale Ales.
If you cram a shit-tonne of hops into a beer towards the end/after the boil it's virtually impossible to clarify it. But it gives huge flavour. It's expensive though.
Rather than avoid it brewers have embraced it as a style.

Some interesting stuff. I'm no connoisseur, don't drink a lot, but like to try different beers. Memory is crap though, so forget what I like and dislike, or like it one time and dislike another or vice-versa. There's a few local micro breweries near me. The selection boxes they do are good for finding what I like and dislike. For example, I really disliked the flavours to the 'Figgy Pudding' Winter ale. Currently drinking 'Cold Turkey' ale. My second while dismantling the vacuum cleaner and blowing out the dust and re-assembling it. The first (a different beer I've forgotten the name of) was good, but the flavour of this has somehow strongly associated itself with vacuum cleaner dust and sparking electric motors.

the best selling beer from around these parts is Wye Valley HPA

Ooh that's a beautiful pint.

Every pub should sell a beer like that.

As the owner of a pub…

I’ve found a decline in young people (<40) drinking real ale. We’ve gone from 5 to 2 lines while increasing our craft lines. My guess is it’s younger drinkers who are drawn to flavour finding they’d rather have cold, fizzy craft products than room temperature, flat ales. Initially they went from generic mass produced tasteless lagers to real ales for flavour & local reasons. Now it’s ales to craft beers. Industry wide the decline in real ale sales is huge.

Some of it is self inflicted. There was a price war on cask years ago that led to many breweries producing the cheapest, blandest, real ales possible, brought on in part by older drinkers being horrified about paying anything for a pint of bitter. Young people tend to not mind paying £6/7 for a great craft beer, but older soaks tend to tut if it goes over £4.

Not sure where cask goes from here, as it really needs volume in a pub to work well as it’s not a sealed dispense system. Lots of sales equals fresh beer that is quickly sold, but ale hanging around in the beer lines is awful.

Specialist ale houses again perhaps? There’s some cracking craft real ales around.

The bigger issue now is the pub buildings though. They’re worth far far more as flats/residential property these days and the buildings owners usually know it. So every time one fails it’s gets converted. I would add them to the listing system, automatically adding most.

Before, I used to go out into Leeds and try a different drink in each pub, none of them actually being the taste I was looking for.

Now, with the advent of Craft beer I can get a different flavour each time I go to the bar. And yes, occasionally its not that nice but I've not met many I can't drink.

As for strength, I have never been a great drinker so moved to halves years ago, so have adapted to 6-7% IPA's no bother. If I'm out for a sesh I start off under 5% and work my way up, slipping in the odd glass of water.

Can't find anything to moan about, we live in glorious times from a choice point of view.

I’ve always been under the impression that the Campaign For Real Ale was mainly formed to stop the breweries going over to KEG bitters in the ‘70s, so yes we/they have won.

The real fight now is keeping the British pub alive.

I wouldn't, out of choice, go to a pub if you paid me. Why would I spend any time or money in a place where they refer to food or drink as FMCG, and have a Regional Business Manager running the place via a monthly P&L on his laptop? I wouldn't let people like that suggest a night out for me, would you?

The commodification and financification of the food and drink industry makes a huge number of pubs a genuinely terrible place to be, souless and boring, with Sky in one corner, fake chalk written menu, and a bazillion flashing lights of the slot machines in the other. A entire row of craft beer won't change that.