What's the plan, jamba?
The plan, surely, is to leave the EU.
non?
After all, the 2015 conservative manifesto stated that they would hold the referendum and respect the outcome.
you may also have forgotten that the Law says we only hold a general election once every five years unless there is a vote of no-confidence.
and lets face it, its not the Tories who are tied up in the problems caused by votes of no confidence at the moment, is it 😆
Could you point me to the detail?
you may also have forgotten that the Law says
That the referendum wasn't legally binding?
Headshot to nick!
Could you point me to the detail?
detail of what?
That the referendum wasn't legally binding?
Nor is an election manifesto pledge, but look how upset Joseph seems to get about how important they are
(funnily enough a piece of caselaw involving the Labour Parties broken promise of a referendum on the EU constitution)
It is highly amusing to see all these demands for new referendums or a general election from those on the losing side of a democratic process.
I'm not keen on a second referendum on the same question. That undermines democracy.
But then I'm also not very keen on politicians basing a campaign around a bunch of headline promises - only for them to immediately withdraw those promises and resign once the vote has been won.
That [i]also[/i] undermines democracy. Probably more so than a second referendum.
Ah well...
[img] 
[/img]
"Something... something... something.. dark side... something... something... something... complete!"
dunno, if you've noticed, but I'm not arguing against their pledge, I'm arguing against the complete an utter non existence of any substance.ninfan - Member
Could you point me to the detail?
detail of what?That the referendum wasn't legally binding?
Nor is an election manifesto pledge, but look how upset Joseph seems to get about how important they are
tory election manifesto
We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome.
the detail on that bit.
For me, that needs to be fleshed out, just a wee bit more. Personally, I think the people should have a say, and all the parties can put forward their brexit vision.
Do you see no contradiction in a campaign that argued to take back democracy acting without consulting the people on what it means?
Never mind her royal guards, I want to know what the rest of the ticker tape says.
The leadership of the tories is irrelevant. The fact their manifesto doesn't state, in any way what-so-ever, the form that Brexit should take, is what makes all this anti-democratic.
Why would that be in a manifesto? The referendum was the pledge - and that was honoured. There are various options that now need to be considered and negotiated. By definition, they cant be details on the form - that's one of the problems ie, it is going to take considerable time for all of this to be negotiated. FA to do with the manifesto though or with democratic/non-democratic debate.
I'm arguing against the complete an utter non existence of any substance.
Maybe you should have asked for it before they won the election, still, they did win the 2015 election, so they now have a free hand to do it however they want
For me, that needs to be fleshed out, just a wee bit more.
as you say, for you - but I'm guessing you didn't vote for them in 2015 anyway, and those who did seem to have been willing to accept the uncertainty. Thats democracy, eh?
fact is that May would have won with a huge amount of support from the Conservative MPs.
Not necessarily, the final vote was down to the membership, who are more Eurosceptic than the PP, so Leadson could have easily won.
and one of the final two has decided to withdraw not least on the basis she knows she won't win the head to head vote.
Another made up #jambafact. By all accounts she couldn't take the pressure from the right wing press who were pro May; so she cracked.
well no, it's not.ninfan - Member
Thats democracy, eh?
Good news - we dont have a BSer as PM. Some sanity is returning. and if rumours are correct no cabinet place for Gove. Please, now kill Bojo with kindness and give him health. That will further kill his aspirations.
teamhurtmore - Member
The leadership of the tories is irrelevant. The fact their manifesto doesn't state, in any way what-so-ever, the form that Brexit should take, is what makes all this anti-democratic.
Why would that be in a manifesto? The referendum was the pledge - and that was honoured. There are various options that now need to be considered and negotiated. By definition, they cant be details on the form - that's one of the problems ie, it is going to take considerable time for all of this to be negotiated. FA to do with the manifesto though or with democratic/non-democratic debate.
It's got everything to do with it, they have no mandate to do as they please going forward.
The plan, surely, is to leave the EU.
That's the plan eh? All of it?
Joe, have you been on holiday for the last month?
In case you missed it, 52% of the population have given the government a mandate to negotiate our exit of the EU. Crazy I know, but hey ho, that's democracy for you.
Of course, in any negotiation there is another side....do you think we should have referendum to decide how the Europeans should approach the negotiations too?
In case you missed it, 52% of the population have given the government a mandate
Well... 26.7% of the population... or 37.4% of the electorate if you prefer.
Crazy I know, but hey ho, that's democracy for you.
What's even more Crazy is that most of them voted out thinking it would never happen; so there are only about 32 people who actually wanted the result they voted for.....
I think the people should vote on the government it thinks best to take forward the negotiations.
I can't actually believe there is opposition to that, particularly when the winning campaigns central message was about the anti-democratic nature of the EU.
In case you missed it, 52% of the population have given the government a mandate to negotiate our exit of the EU
As on of the 48% of the people who voted, and voted to stay in, that is either very subtle humour (in which case chapeau) or a sloppy statistic thm. Still 5 minutes or so to edit it or add a winky. 😛
[edit] ah I see GrahamS beat me to it. I have faith in you though thm, I am sure it was a wink to the overall decisively high standard of statistics in the leave campaign.
Ok, fair cop, sloppy wording but nowt you can do with those who don't vote.
If people don't vote (or vote stupidly) then they only have themselves to blame.
Bottom line - the givernment has been given a mandate to negotiate Brexit. I don't like the result but can't cry undemocratic just because of that and the lack of detail. That just doesn't make sense.
I think it's reasonable to assume that the referendum gives May the mandate to leave Europe. I also think it would be silly to have a general election solely based on the Brexit issue. we need stability not X months of campaigning. This is coming from someone who would dearly love to remain.
However, what I am unclear about is why the papers are going on about May's views on xyz. Surely beyond brexiting her mandate is to fulfil the conservative manifesto that was presented pre- general election whether she agrees with it or not? If her becoming p.m. will alter plans for policy/lesiglation away from the existing manifesto then there should be an election edit. I would have thought? Genuine Question rather than statement
Bottom line - the givernment has been given a mandate to negotiate Brexit. I don't like the result but can't cry undemocratic just because of that and the lack of detail. That just doesn't make sense.
Do you believe the tories have a mandate to take us out, at any terms they deem suitable?
Ok, fair cop, sloppy wording but nowt you can do with those who don't vote.
If people don't vote (or vote stupidly) then they only have themselves to blame.
All true, but as I'm sure has been mentioned before, 37.4% of the electorate is not enough to be considered as a mandate for a legal public sector strike, never mind a massive constitutional change.
Democracy is a very odd beast.
I don't like the result but can't cry undemocratic just because of that and the lack of detail. That just doesn't make sense.
As on the other thread - democratic doesn't mean good, doesn't mean right.. our country's not governed by plebiscite.
Joe, it's a negotiation FFS. You are beginning to sound like a Brexiter, or even worse a yS rep 😉
Graham, I am sympathetic to the idea. It's is ludicrous to have such change on an anything above 50%. Truly absurd. But there it is....thats what we had and as some woman said today, Brexit is Brexit (although in time, she may just be wrong there 😉 )
Just trying to guage your stance. I'll take that as a "no you don't". 😉teamhurtmore - Member
Joe, it's a negotiation FFS. You are beginning to sound like a Brexiter, or even worse a yS rep
Stance on what?
Do you believe the tories have a mandate to take us out, at any terms they deem suitable?
Yes
They earned that by winning the election in 2015, on a manifesto pledge of holding and implementing the results of an EU referendum
Which appears to be exactly what they are doing
Its a bit like when Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, in the full knowledge that one possible result of this (indeed one that Salmond specifically discussed prior to the indyref) might be the UK leaving the EU after a referendum.
Do you believe the tories have a mandate to take us out, at any terms they deem suitable?
If you don't answer the questions, I am just going to have to guess.
Ouch 😉
ninfan - Member
Do you believe the tories have a mandate to take us out, at any terms they deem suitable?
YesThey earned that by winning the election in 2015, on a manifesto pledge of holding and implementing the results of an EU referendum
Which appears to be exactly what they are doing
[b]Its a bit like when Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, in the full knowledge that one possible result of this (indeed one that Salmond specifically discussed prior to the indyref) might be the UK leaving the EU after a referendum.[/b]
wow, just wow! 😆
Thats democracy unfortunately.
😀
It's not a sensible question. It's a negotiation - no party is going to have their own way.
We are about to through the greatest divorce in history - sadly - as the worlds 5th largest economy leaves the words biggest economic unit. It's ridiculously complex, so the idea that any party is going to have free reign is bizarre. By the time we are half way through, we could well have a different government altogether.
But right now, the government in charge has to get on with it.
Yep, having not had to negotiate a trade deal since 1975, we're now going to have to do 42 of them in 2 years!
No one in the UK civil service has the experience to manage one, let alone 42.
Completely insane situation.
Luckily we can outsource all the negotiation to immigrants in the EU, who do have the experience 🙂
teamhurtmore - Member
It's not a sensible question. It's a negotiation - no party is going to have their own way.We are about to through the greatest divorce in history - sadly - as the worlds 5th largest economy leaves the words biggest economic unit. It's ridiculously complex, so the idea that any party is going to have free reign is bizarre. By the time we are half way through, we could well have a different government altogether.
But right now, the government in charge has to get on with it.
That really depends on how quick the negotiations happen and how much nose cutting the incumbent government is willing to do.
Is the new brexit thread?
Here's a question then. What happens if they can't negotiate exit without terms that severely disadvantage the country - costing hundreds of thousands of jobs and so on. How could any government do that?
Well they cant - we know that. But at least we have control and can stop those nasty foreigners at our borders - look on the bright side
What happens if they can't negotiate exit without terms that severely disadvantage the country
Highly likely.
One of three outcomes:
1) Endlessly delay A50 by continuing negotiations; in effect stay in the EU indefinitely
2) Public mood has changed after a prolonged recession, £ worth less than Dracma and we have a 2nd referendum, and vote to not leave the EU
3) Say F*** It and just quit and turn the UK into another Portugal / Greece...
I'd say 1 or 2 is most likely....
4) We make a go of it. I voted to remain, but we are where we are now.
We make a go of it.
There are no prizes for effort in the real world.
The tricky part of making a go of it is getting from here to there without making a right pigs ear of it and ruining many more lives than staying in would have damaged. Basically, are we prepared to risk hobbling an entire generation for a random punt in the dark, hoping that things somehow improve when we have no power or influence over any of it?
Basically, are we prepared to risk hobbling an entire generation for a random punt in the dark hoping that things don't get worse than they are now?
Apparently we are.
I'm struggling to think why anyone thinks the EU would give favourable terms to the UK on leaving.
It's going to be a competitor. Never feed the enemy is a useful business rule.