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See that's the type of statement that just shows hatred for Europe, it destroys your argument in the first sentence.
There you go MSP, I have now taken a long hard look at myself in the mirror, slapped myself on the wrist for being so un-PC and have just edited 'workshy Greeks' to 'hardworking Greeks'.
That's better isn't it. Now you can read the rest of the post without getting upset. And the Greeks are now free to go about their hard daily work, walking their donkeys along their billiard smooth motorways that us the UK taxpayer has previously helped to fund.
What quangos are neither technocrats or they dont have power? - the daily fail may rant about them but they do meet that descriptions. I would not call them technocrats but nor would I call the people in europe technocrats.
Maybe you should sit down, have a nice cup of tea and calm down a bit because that makes bugger all sense.
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All he has done is make it harder for us to be heard when things are decided and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.
Quite the opposite infact. Thanks to Cameron's decision to Veto, we are now the ones holding the strongest cards. If we'd have gone along with the flow then we would be just one small voice in the midst of 26 directionless others.
and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.
TJ - Can you give me a single example of a 'decision' actually being taken? Any at all? In all these various overblown summits? All I see is endless procrastination, and a complete inability, or lack of will to actually 'decide' anything at all.
And therein lies the entire problem of the EU in its present state
Fiveundred!!
How on earth do you see that Northernstar. we will just be sidelined from now on and ignored. We hold no cards - we played them all badly at the wrong time and wasted them
walking their donkeys along their billiard smooth motorways that us the UK taxpayer has previously helped to fund.
(Let's try not to think too much about the stuff in Scotland, Wales and NI that's been part-funded by the EU).
Glentress anyone? EU money in there
TJ
i) do you accept that the 17 plus can only realistically hope to function by using existing EU facilities and mechanisms
ii) do you accept that, legally, they can only do this with the unanimous agreement of the 27 (ie. including the UK)
iii) can you now see why the 17 plus REALLY need to either concede to our demands on city regulation, or watch their whole house of cards fall.
Now, tell me how we've lost all influence in Europe and have no cards to play at the table again 😆
Were not discussing leaving the EU, for which the UK is a net contributor, this discussion is about forming a new group to defend the Euro.
Basically wanting to bring new rules in to keep the Euro going, within a new structure.
The current EU is not changing.
konabunny - Member(Let's try not to think too much about the stuff in Scotland, Wales and NI that's been part-funded by the EU).
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=4640
ii) do you accept that, legally, they can only do this with the unanimous agreement of the 27 (ie. including the UK)
Actually on Radio 4 yesterday there was a story that the EU lawyers reckoned this wasn't necessarily the case. i.e. UK's permission might not be required.
Anyway, carry on 🙂
we will just be sidelined from now
What, sidelined from the complete EU shambles that will lead to the unravelling of the Euro? Surely that's a good thing no?
The best thing surely is to allow the whole sorry house of cards to collapse in an orderly way as possible and not try to keep propping up a dead patient with life support.
Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and possibly Italy will all default of their debts. Their economies are basket cases and it's only a matter of time before they default. So why keep on chucking good money after bad?
This is why the Euro can't survive in it's current form. It's because the type of fiscal policy that the southern European countries need is way different to what the slightly more solvent northern European countries need.
A single fiscal policy for the whole of Europe is very much like a doctor having two very different groups of patients. One group with asthma and the other group with terminal cancer. Yet the medicine he gets to treat both groups with must be one and the same. As you can see this this is never going to work for either group.
This is why the UK is better out of this whole mess and remains able to take the medicine that suits our own type of illness.
Just an off the cuff, light hearted remark here.
I know I'm from Stoke so that could cloud the issue, but if I was on the Bridge of the Titannic is there not a chance that I could have spotted the iceberg and steered a course to miss it? If I was on the docks at Portsmouth (Southampton surely?)I would as stated be safe but powerless to do anything.
TandemJeremy - Member
Its so funny watching you guys here - "fog in channel - continent cut off".
Er it's wind today actually and operation stack is likely for the 2nd time this week.
Then if it isn't wind it's French Fishermen blockading Calais, or French technicians Industrial action with the Tunnel.
It's so frequent it rarely even gets reported.
As for you other comment about us not having a card to play, er I think you'll find we have over 60 going on 70 million of them and each and every one of them buys something that comes from Europe very regularly.
France has run a deficit for longer than I can remember, they are also a basket case, it's just attention hasn't really focussed on them yet, but it will, wasn't it one of their banks about to fail during the Chancellors Autumn Statement?
Anyway they're just as ****ed as the rest of Southern Europe and should be parcelled up with the PIGS and head up a Euro 2 which then gets devalued.. Put all the rotten apples in one basket rather than have them dragging the Germans down and influencing them the way they are right now.
cameron wasnt using his 'veto' for the good of britain though he was using it for the good of the city
because its so vital that we protect it
after all it pulled in 300bn in tax between 2002-2008
yet since 2008 has cost us over 1tn in refinancing the banks and underwriting etc
youd almost think that dave was completely in the pocket of a finance sector thats brought us into this mess
and now wants protection from nasty regulation
Just an off the cuff, light hearted remark here.I know I'm from Stoke so that could cloud the issue, but if I was on the Bridge of the Titannic is there not a chance that I could have spotted the iceberg and steered a course to miss it? If I was on the docks at Portsmouth (Southampton surely?)I would as stated be safe but powerless to do anything.
We hit the iceberg in the summer.
There must be a little voice in Cameron's head urging him to call an election in the next few months. What he's done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it's even more popular in large swathes of the country.
For all the desire to 'bring down the coalition', with unelectable Ed hunching over the reins, and the LibDems utterly destroyed in terms of electoral credibility, Labour should be careful what it wishes for.
Ed Balls is being rather quiet on this for a reason. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some leadership moves before too long.
you'd almost think that dave was completely in the pocket of a finance sector thats brought us into this mess and now wants protection from nasty regulation
Thats a very cynical point of view Kimbers. He's been recieving advice on the whole Europe thing anyway
[url= http://newsthump.com/2011/12/09/alex-ferguson-to-advise-david-cameron-on-european-exits-that-delight-a-nation/ ]Daves special adviser[/url]
What he's done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it's even more popular in large swathes of the country.
im not sure whats more impressive
that up until now milibland was beating callmedave in the polls
however i suppose, unemployment is at a 17 year high and rising, a double dip recession is around the corner, weve had riots, strikes, another oil war, the rest of europe now hating us yet all it took is a bit of anti euro tubthumping from our PM and all of a sudden hes a hero!?
Your analysis of the British electorate appears fundamentally correct...
did anyone see newsnight last night it ended with Emily Maitlis interviewing 3 female economists about their most important financial graphs of 2011
I bet stoner stashed that one in the **** bank 😉
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-16090055 ]
top graphs of 2011[/url]
I bet stoner stashed that one in the **** bank
Looks like Angela and Barak have a spy cam installed chez stoner.
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German cam in need of calibration ?
Ed Balls is being rather quiet on this for a reason. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some leadership moves before too long.
From personal experience, Ed Balls is incredibly intelligent and a tough negotiator.
But in any case, the #2 of the opposition never has an incentive to get really stuck in. If the govt really gets it right, it makes #1 look good. If the govt messes it up, the #1 gets the credit. Better if PM calls an election, wins, means #1 gets the nudge for losing the election and is replaced by #2, then PM ****s it all up, meaning #2 (now #1) gets elected.
There is a split in Labour over teh EU - I suspect staying quiet and non controversial is a good move
id say its more likely that labour are wary of little englanders and dont wont dail fail/murdoch papers/torygraph on their arses
That as well
martinhutch - Member
There must be a little voice in Cameron's head urging him to call an election in the next few months. What he's done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it's even more popular in large swathes of the country.
For all the desire to 'bring down the coalition', with unelectable Ed hunching over the reins, and the LibDems utterly destroyed in terms of electoral credibility, Labour should be careful what it wishes for.
The date of the next General Election at 7 May 2015. There are also two ways in which an election could be triggered before the end of the five-year term:
1) if a motion of no confidence is passed and no alternative government is found
2) if a motion for an early general election is agreed either by at least two-thirds of the House or without division
Unlikely we're going to see either of those two scenarios playing out as the LibDems know it would be electoral suicide.
but more likely that there is a split in the party, as there is a split in the country, in the EU, it seems that everywhere there is a near 50:50 split over the EU.
I dont think one party will be any differend from the rest of the country.
If the govt really gets it right, it makes #1 look good.
Buggeration.
I meant, of course, it makes the #1 look BAD.
TandemJeremy - Member
Teamhurtmoe - you claim to be pro europe - but actually you don't want the EU that we have. Well thats tough - [b]you either play by the rules or you don't play. You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don't.[/b]
TJ - you are brilliant, bloody brilliant. Peter Cooke in his hey-day wouldn't have used such delicious irony. It has taken me months to realise what your internet purpose it. Today, I have found the answer!! You are a master at it.
But you are completely correct - I certainly don't want the EU we have. It is a structural disaster that is failing everyone. I would like to see a Europe that works. It gives me no pleasure to watch this catastrophe unfold.
Kona - I think you are correct with Balls Up, but at times he does his best to hide how intelligent his academic record suggests he is. Well Oxford and the Oxford Conservative Association must have rubbed off on him. He is being the most sensible of all - keep quiet, keep your head down and wait for the correct moment to strike. Watch your back Wallace, its not your brother you need to watch, its the evil duo!!
JY - I was joshing about the gov/less public sector!! Excuse me, I still shoudn't be putting words into your mouth (even in jest)!!
The labour party aren't saying anything because Wet Ed has established a series of focus groups in key marginal constituencies, and policy forums amongst fleetingly fashionable think-tanks. These are due to report back around June next year. He'll know what he's meant to think then. Once they've told him. Oh... and another focus group has run through the conclusions. Obviously. And if no-one in the press office has any objections*
* This of course depends on there being no major developments on the issue during that time. In which case some fresh focus groups and policy forums will be established
Ah yes Druidh - had forgotten about the Fixed Term Parliament Act. Cam may be wishing he'd not bothered with that now...
does it trump the royal perogative as the crown calls elections and the crown asks someone to form a government - surely we have a constitutional expert on here to answer this one
Teamhurtmore - actually for a great many folk this EU works well. You cannot have a single market without safeguards such as the social chapter or else you get a race to the bottom.
its stupid to pretend that we can have a the single market and nothing else - this is not on offer.
We either join in, play by the rules and try to influence things in the way we want or we snipe from he sidelines.
The EU you want - a playground for unfettered capitalism is not going to happen.
TJ - I have not argued against any specific safeguards nor have I (ever) argued for unfettered capitalism (although I enjoy reading how often that is assumed!!). But the current structure is economically inept and politically dishonest, so I will continue to argue strongly against it, while remaining pro-Europe.
But it is extremely naive for anyone to pretend that the EU plays by the rules. Every leader around that table was focused on national interest. Europe comes second - after all Europe doesn't vote for them, domestic audiences do. And the rules are not synonymous with deficits - ask the Germans, they ignored those rules and others didn't. And who is in crisis now?
Teamhurtmore - I thought you were against the social chapter?
Are they the EU regulations involved when striking up conversations with people at the bar?
The only thing I have categorically stated TJ is that I am anti a single currency. And that is simply from my training as an economist.
teamhurtmore - MemberAsk yourself why The Guardian is quoting the Tories overtaking Labour in the polls
You really need to deal with your obsession with the Guardian newspaper's opinion/comment teamhurtmore. Just because the Guardian says something doesn't mean that everyone should stop what they're doing and listen. In fact I find ignoring the Guardian's editorial policy works rather well.
And I find it unbelievable how some Tory voters appear to be wetting themselves with excitement at the sight of the first opinion poll [i][b]since last year[/b][/i] which gives the Tories a lead ..... a [u]2%[/u] lead ffs.
One opinion poll does not signal a change in the game plan, and it betrays just how desperate you are if you think it does. The tracker poll/poll of polls has had Labour well ahead of the Tories ever since the general election.
Ask yourself why the government did not enjoy the traditional "honeymoon period" which all governments can rightly expect to have after a general election.
And as for all the excitement generated because Cameron has heroically made a stand for Britain - he has done no such thing. He has simply committed the UK to a European Union but with less influence. Big ****ing deal.
Even the halfwit Nigel Farage of UKIP recognises the futility of pointless political posturing......you would expect him to be cheering Cameron instead of claiming that we are now in a worse position.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16111356
TBF, Farage wants to paint it as bad as possible in order to help persuade folk it's better to leave.
Ernie - where is the smiley? Otherwise your opening gambit is a FAIL. If you go back to the post you are quoting from, you will see that I quoted three newspapers - FT (broadly pro-Europe), The Guardian (pro-Europe) and the DT (euro sceptic). So I went for a range of papers to show that a specific point made by another poster was in fact unsupportable. So please don't paint me as merely a Guardian reader! Ditto, the opinion poll stuff. Others post on here that the stance taken by DC was (almost universally) unpopular and yet that simply is not shown up in the specific polls (Times) or the general opinion polls. So it is perfectly fair to point that out.
Even the halfwit Nigel Farage of UKIP recognises the futility of pointless political posturing
Time to create a book for these lines - that is another brilliant one!!!
So please don't paint me as merely a Guardian reader!
You are clearly not merely a Guardian reader. But you subscribe to this commonly held nonsensical perception that the Guardian is some sort of left-wing bible, and that by quoting the Guardian you are offering the "left-wing" alternative argument.
The Guardian is a Tony Blair-loving/LibDem-loving rag for the self-gratification of the waffling bleeding-heart middle-classes. It is the holy water which blesses and consecrates the heart-burnings of the after-dinner activist/pontificator. It's one and overwhelming redeeming quality is that it is packed with news. Which is why I read it it 🙂