[Closed] Cameron kicks EU in the nuts - right decision?

Ernie - well he has predominately been arguing with TJ and it is TJ's political bible and I would even have the temerity to suggest that you might have said this in the past.

Ok Ernie, I will add Socialist Worker to my bookmarks (plus any other suggestions??). Interestingly today they say:

The robber barons of Europe have fallen out—but their rows are an expression of a much deeper crisis. They face the prospect of economic catastrophe. Even the powerful economies of France and Germany are now threatened with credit rating downgrades. This has caused panic across the ruling elite. Politicians have imposed unelected governments on Italy and Greece. [b]But the strikes there show that people won’t take austerity lying down. “Fiscal unity”—the drive to centralise the imposition of austerity across Europe—is the latest attempt to make ordinary people pay for[/b] a crisis caused by bankers.

Funnily enough that ties in with my "predictions"/ guesses as to what might happen in the future. It will be social factors that may well bring this all to a head. The SW talks for the ordinary people, but the reality is that it will also include the middle classes in the European periphery.

Interesting to see Merkel losing one of her coalition partners today!

p.s. I actually used the Guardian today because I perceive it as pro-European rather than left-wing but ho hum! Is the Labour Party left wing? Interesting that EM didn't respond to DC's jibe when he accused him of being left wing recently. Why was that, I wonder?

Ok Ernie, I will add Socialist Worker to my bookmarks (plus any other suggestions??).

Yeah right, there's no need to be silly and go from the wishy-washy fence-sitting position of the Guardian straight over to an ultra-leftist instant revolution position.

You could have found a more mainstream left-wing perspective in the Morning Star, which like me is moderate, sensible, and pragmatic.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/113058

BTW did you notice the marxist quote which I cunningly shoehorned into my last post after a slight alteration to make it more topical ? 😀

Marx's "holy water" - sorry I missed that, but nice quote. I will have to watch your posts with more vigor in future. Have you ever worked for MI5?

Rather worryingly I did spend 5-10 mins browsing the SW website, but didn't add it to my bookmark!! 😉

Ernie - don't you just love the last few para's of the article on the link. So if you posted that on here, how many pages? Would it make 20? Zulu vs TJ - ding, ding!!!

Ernie - don't you just love the last few para's of the article on the link.

Actually no I didn't. I thought it was rather puerile and pointless as it was not really directly linked to the leader/comment. Indeed I was surprised that it was included as it's not typical of the Morning Star's editorials, which I invariably find excellent and straight to the point. You can make the case against the EU without necessarily making the case for socialism - stick to the topic I would say. And leave the case for socialism to another discussion. I actually hesitated posting the link because of the last paragraph.

Agree Ernie - I forgot to add the smiley to "don't you just love..." 😉

Looks like CMD hasn't made the Euro isolationist faux pas that TJ is predicting.

From the [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-still-has-a-role-in-the-eu-says-angela-merkel-6276843.html ]Indy[/url]

Suggestions that David Cameron has left Britain isolated in Europe by deploying his veto were downplayed today by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who insisted the UK will continue to play an important role in the EU.

She's also quoted in the Gruinad

[Britain] is a reliable partner for Europe not just in questions of foreign and security policy … [it] is also this partner in many other questions – in competitiveness, in the internal market, for trade, for climate protection," she said.

Great at the moment sending more Sterling into my Spanish bank account 😆

Was interesting reading this link

[url= http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/budget.pdf ]Open Europe[/url]

This too is interesting

[url= http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/BritainoutsidetheEU.html ]Britain Outside The EU[/url]

think it's more a case of we're not the bad guys, from Merkel, look how magnanimous we can be. come on in the water is fine 😀

[i]She indicated she has not given up hope of eventual UK involvement in the new compact, telling the German Parliament that it remains open for all EU members to join and it should be merged with the official treaties as soon as possible.[/i]

think it's more a case of we're not the bad guys, from Merkel, look how magnanimous we can be. come on in the water is fine

and please save me from the French

Teh BBC - that bastion of socialism and europhilia reports

Euro crisis: Europe reacts with anger

European commentators have reacted with anger at Britain's decision not to join a tax and budget pact to tackle the eurozone

Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, head of the Germany's FDP group, part of the European Liberals, goes as far as to say it was "a mistake to let the British into the EU".

German Christian Democrat MEP Elmar Brok, foreign policy spokesman for the centre-right in the European parliament, echoed his sentiment: "If you're not ready to abide by the rules, you'd do better to keep your mouth shut."

"And this dirty game that the British are playing - wanting to stay with one foot in and one foot out of Europe - risks collapsing the entire system. London must be either in, or out. But they simply cannot sabotage everything."

The country's main financial daily, Il Sole 24 Ore, calls the move a "British bluff" which leaves the country isolated.

And plenty more quotes -make no mistake - the anger is real and the UK is isolated on the fringes like never before. the damage done is huge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16114902

Germany wants Britian back in the 'club' so it doesnt have to foot the bill alone when its time for more bail-outs....which will happen shortly i'm sure.

Better to be on the outside of a crumbling economic experiment than locked into it.

Trying to harmonise economies as different as Germany and Greece was never going to work....but with the EU it always seems to be a hurried and immature numbers game, no real thought as to who is joining and what they offer, just an assumption that more members must be a good thing....even if they come to the EU with a crack pot economy.

I see Albania and Macedonia are being lined up as potential new members (seriously), anybody think they are bringing anything to the EU?....the reality is that countries like this want their place at the table for what they can get out of the EU....and the same will happen to them as seems to happen with all new member states, there will be a temporary boost to their economy during which they will spend more than they create and will be left with a debt for the wealthier countries to pay off....thats why Germany wants the UK back in.

The sooner they Euro is knocked on the head the better.

the same will happen to them as seems to happen with all new member states, there will be a temporary boost to their economy during which they will spend more than they create and will be left with a debt for the wealthier countries to pay off....thats why Germany wants the UK back in.

Slovakia, Slovenia and Estonia are the only "new" EU members to be in the Eurozone.

At the end of 2010, the lowest ratios of government debt to GDP were recorded in [b]Estonia (6.6%)[/b], Bulgaria (16.2%), Luxembourg (18.4%), Romania (30.8%), [b]Slovenia (38.0%)[/b], Lithuania (38.2%), the Czech Republic (38.5%) and Sweden (39.8%). Fourteen Member States had government debt ratios higher than 60% of GDP in 2010: Greece (142.8%), Italy (119.0%), Belgium (96.8%), Ireland (96.2%), Portugal (93.0%), Germany (83.2%), France (81.7%), Hungary (80.2%), the United Kingdom (80.0%), Austria (72.3%), Malta (68.0%), the Netherlands (62.7%), Cyprus (60.8%) and Spain (60.1%).

and

Eurostat said the largest government deficits in percentage of GDP were recorded in Ireland (-32.4%), Greece (-10.5%), the United Kingdom (-10.4%), Spain (-9.2%), Portugal (-9.1%), Poland (-7.9%), [b]Slovakia (-7.9%)[/b], Latvia (-7.7%), Lithuania (-7.1%) and France (-7.0%). The lowest deficits were recorded in Luxembourg (-1.7%), Finland (-2.5%) and Denmark (-2.7%). [b]Estonia (0.1%) registered a slight government surplus in 2010[/b] and Sweden (0.0%) was in balance.

The Eurozone debt crisis is an "old" member problem, not a "new" member problem. PIIGS are all old members. The new members are neither big enough or ****less enough to cause the Euro systemic problems.

Neither are Eurozone countries paying off each others' debt. They are restructuring it, true, but they're not paying it off. The Greek state will pay off its debts (eventually).

TJ over the next few days anyone with access to the Internet will be able to find quotes to support their respective positions. So what? Well very little. There are two powerful forces at work - a long run project outlined yesterday by Merkel towards a full fiscal union (in which she hopes GB will play a part) which individuals can make their own minds up on and the short term economic, political AND social forces that threaten the break up of the current project. As sound as it is to outline LR strategic objectives, failure to address the lack of foundations will result in the house falling down in the meantime.

Instead of all the posturing debate should focus on two key questions:

1. Do populations desire full monetary and fiscal union with the implications that has for the national v pooled sovereignty debate?

2. Do populations support the full transfer of funds from surplus to deficit countries that such a plan requires. This is a crucial bit that remains out of the open debate but which the german and Dutch will find very hard to swallow

The rest is simply a side show to keep 24 hour news ( working) and markets (not working) happy. IMHO of course.

Teamhurtmore - the critical thing you ignore is that Camerons actions have made the situation worse in general ( by making solutions harder to find), have annoyed the rest of the EU so that they will bypass him in future and have not done what he claims it did.

This is no sideshow - this is absolutely critical for the future of the UK.

TJ, what has happened in my view is camerons mistake had highlighted the divisions between states a lot more, it may be that what is needed and what i think will happen is that the infighting between memeber states needs to come out in the open and the motives for different countries need to come out in the open, france for example calling for us giving up the rebate, because technically they pay for most of it.

I think a lot of open bickering is needed before it can calm down and get resolved with everyone knowing really how we feel about our neighbours.

have annoyed the rest of the EU so that they will bypass him in future

Here's a quote for you, TJ

beyond doubt for me that Great Britain will in future continue to be an important partner in the European Union

I presume that whoever said that is far less significant than Graf Lambsdorff or Elmar Brok though.

TJ - you know you may be right about DC's actions. Frankly I think all the major players made the situations worse. As I said before, a game of chicken with nobody jumping?? BUT, I think Sancho is also correct - the law of unintended consequences. By (being forced to stand) standing up to Sarkozy and Merkel, he may well raise the debate to the real issues. Indeed this is why Wallace is so uncomfortable at the moment and DC has had an easy-ish ride at home - Wallace cant answer the straight question - "would you have signed up?" - every time, this is ducked by the "being at the table argument" which is a red herring. If the real issues remain unresolved then the "being at the table on the titanic" analogy is fitting.

Sorry, but like all these summits, this was a sideshow (notice how many column inches and media time it is receiving now). There is an economic, political and social reality playing out in the mainstream and a series of fruitless summits playing out in parallel.

The EU will not by-pass Europe - they cannot afford to pass on the GB budget contributions. It will all be hot air and posturing - particularly by Sarkozy.

And with exquisite timing we're treated to another one of the architects of the Euro covering himself in glory

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16194089 ]quelle surprise![/url]

So... incompetent AND corrupt. Yip. Glad we're on board?

Our bunch of corrupt incompetent half-wits should learn from this. You want 21 fictional employees not a duck house.

5thElefant 😀 😀

Well they do like their Grands Projets - you have to hand it to them, they do things with a certain panache (or is that a French shandy?).

Exactly! Wisteria cleaning off your chimney? Pfft! Pathetic!

Look at Berlesconi! He wore his blatant corruption like a badge of honour! Funneling millions upon millions of Euros of EU tax payers money into your arse pocket, year after year? That's more like it!

Only Hazel Blears comes close to the kind of unapologetic, shameless money-trousering. Maybe her future lies in Brussels, where she can represent us in the Champions League of Embezzlement 😉

and follow Mr and Mrs Pillock?

erm, I will fly in the back of the plane and charge for a business class ticket.....hmm???? Imagine doing that in real life - would you keep your job?

The prosecution had urged the judge to acquit Mr Chirac and nine others accused in the trial.

Eh?

The former president's doctors say he has irreversible neurological problems which cause memory lapses.

Oh, that [i]is[/i] a surprise.

So a week on from the last storm in a teacup:

1. GB invited back to the table (TJ will be relieved as will the hotels in Brussels)
2. Cracks already appearing among other nations (not that they weren't obvious from the start)
3. France likely to loose its AAA status (cue amusing Matt cartoon in the Torygraph)

Plus ca change, rien na change.

The French don't appear to be reet happy about their credit ratings do they? The poison dwarf isn't having a good week at all. Hey ho!

Samuel Brittan in today's FT:

The selling point of the original Common Market was that it would bind the basic industries of Germany and France so closely together that the wars that had split Europe asunder would become inconceivable. Oddly, the economic logic was less clearly spelt out; but the thought was that, at a time when the future of world trade was in doubt, here, at least, was an area where trade would flow freely; and production take place in the most efficient centres with a strong safety net to protect the victims of change. It is not a coincidence that this was also the guiding philosophy of the German social market; nor that agriculture was subject to a different and more protectionist regime. Some of the most job-destroying rules came from the later social charter, from which John Major’s government secured an opt-out; even Tony Blair dropped it.

The enlarged EU has moved in a perverse direction. [b]Its ruling spirits combine a penchant for micro and industrial policies that destroy jobs with an espousal of deflationary macro policies. [/b]Blaming Brussels for what has happened is just shorthand. Quite often the worst decisions originate with national governments. But one mindless slogan uttered too often is that the solution to problems is “more Europe” rather than less.

[b]If I had to give a snap judgment on the embryonic plan to “save the euro”, I would say it is deflationary in the short term and inflationary in the long term – the opposite of what is needed. [/b]If the Republicans do well in the 2012 US elections, the stage will be set for a repetition of many of the economic errors of the 1930s, when countries tried to fight depression with cuts of all kinds.

I will end by citing Lombard Street Research’s Charles Dumas. [b]The “eurozone rot is caused by divergence of competitiveness over 13 years, not budget deficits”.[/b] Italy is seen as “lost” compared with Germany. As with the futile struggle to prevent the UK devaluation of 1967 and the dollar’s departure from a fixed peg the following decade, some preparatory work will no doubt have been done in secret to prepare for a disintegration of the euro – but not nearly enough to stop that disintegration being unnecessarily messy and disruptive.