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McBoo in fantasy land - a new pantomime. 🙂 Staring McBoo, teamhurtmore and as the red queen - zulu
I know you find an internationalist outward looking philosophy hard to unerstand.
SNP policy on the Euro has always been this. Its entirely consistent.
TJ
how can the SNP be outward looking when all they want to do is protect Scotland and pull up the draw bridge with the UK, they simply want to be away from England to be a little Scottish island, living on deluded dreams of oil revenue.
Sancho - do some reading on it. I ain't going to get into a debate.
One key point is that at the moment Scotland has no voice in the EU. A future independent Scotland would have.
Why should we give the SNP the choice? Why not expel scotland from the union and see how well they'd cope as a little european vassel state? At a stroke we could rid ourselves of the scottish contamination of UK politcs!
TJ - you are a laugh and frankly a bit of an enigma. I can't work out if your Internet persona is (to continue the pantomime theme) deliberately hammed-up for effect and to continue some lively debate (I guess more likely) or you are simply massively misguided and naive on these issues (I hope less likely). But you are getting in an awful mess here.
Go and read front page of FT, Guardian business section, Telgraph comments page (yes I know that will be hard) and read what is being written. Look at the political mess all these politicians are in because the population know that everyone got this weekend wrong and spectaculary so. Ask yourself why The Guardian is quoting the Tories overtaking Labour in the polls, ask yourself why Ed Balls Up is so spectacularly quiet (he shows some understanding here), ask yourself why Italy is paying record high rates to fund itself today. And then step back and think about things for just a moment.
I am not anti-Euro. On e contrary I appreciate the vital importance that Europe plays in our economic and social wellbeing. But I am angered by the politicians in ability to grasp what is happening her, the scaremongering stories, the lack of progress with each "summit to end all summits" and the absurdity that is a fixed exchange rate mechanism. So I find the little Englander perspective as unpalatable as the crap coming out from Barroso, Von Rumpey Pumpey etc.
ask yourself why Ed Balls Up is so spectacularly quiet (he shows some understanding here)
Because he is clueless.
One key point is that at the moment Scotland has no voice in the EU. A future independent Scotland would have.
No, a future "independant" Scotland would have the right to drop trou and grab its ankles whilst the ESM helps itself to the petty cash tin.
ask yourself why Ed Balls Up is so spectacularly quiet (he shows some understanding here)Because he is clueless.
Not true....Balls isnt stupid, he doesnt want to get on the wrong side of the argument, knows where the public is on this.
Balls isn't stupid, just inept.
Teamhurtmore - I just have a very different view to yours - from different place with a different set of values.
You seem to me to be rabidly anti EU in all forms and how you cannot see how poorly Cameron has played this I find funny.
He is completley isolated from large parts of his own party, from his coalition partners, from all otehr EU politicians, from the foreign office, from the EU commisiion. I have never seen concerted criticism from so many places of a politician before.
He is massivly weakened by this and has done long term damage to the UK
He had no need to veto, the veto will not do what he claims it would. All he has done is isolated the UK and reduced its influence to virtually zero. The foreign office and the UK representatives in Europe are frantically trying to build some bridges and undo the damage.
TJ, earlier...
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a voice in europe, its like shouting down the LHC as much good it will do.
Christ on a *ing bendybus Uncle Jezza!! A tartan one if you like. Does [b]EVERYTHING[/b] revolve around bloody Scottish Independence? Right now the UK is a minor irritant/irrelevance to whats going on in the EU. What does that make an independent Scotland?
The one thing that has been mentioned repeatedly is that through all the talk of CMD using the veto, one thing isn't being talked about.
The EU has had 8 major emergency summits so far this year. [b]8![/b] And in amongst all this posturing and elaborate lunches, they have achieved the sum total of * all!!! They have put precisely nothing/nowt/zip/nada in place that has done the slightest thing to defuse the financial apocalypse looming ever closer the horizon.
I'd like to raise a practical question too. Seeing as the 26 countries no longer constitute the actual 'EU', and are a new, seperate grouping of countries - where are they going to have their meetings?
I await the Sarkozy proposal for a new EU funded, £20billion, 26 member complex near Nice as the new venue. And in all honesty - would you be surprised?
Binners - Mcboo raised Scotland
TJ - thanks you have cleared it all up. It's the pantomime dame, ham it up approach. I get it now. It helps to explain how you can completely miss my final point above - you can be pro-Europe and stil ant what is going on here. Indeed perhaps the only positive thing from this weekend is the fact that finally the EU bureaucrats and politicians may finally wake up from their Sleeping Beauty approach and actually do something meaningful. Whonwould have thought that DC would have played the part of the Prince - unintendedly of course!!!
Binners - Mcboo raised Scotland
Thats true. It's the only thing he's right on.
He pandered to the masses and the right wing and he has achieved some political success with his rhetoric and his stance but he has not achieved his goals
He now cannot prevent the 26 making rules to trump his line in the sand or adversely affect us - do you think they may have an axe to grind with us and wont try and retaliate?
How arsey he want to continue being in all honesty I dont know
This has more to do with politics [ pandering to euroseceptics and avoiding a referendum] than it does about economics.
He ha sa point though most folk here [ UK] hate Europe and will happily bite their nose of to spite their face [ like TJ allegedly would for Scottish Independence]
People are making emotive decisions here not rational ones.
He is completley isolated from large parts of his own party,
Definition of "large parts" being Ken Clarke and Heseltine and no-one else.
from his coalition partners, from all otehr EU politicians, from the foreign office, from the EU commisiion.
ALL other European politicians? LibDems, FCO and the EU commission are not to be trusted on matters Europe. So good.
I have never seen concerted criticism from so many places of a politician before.
Only if you disregard the views of the 60% of the population who support the veto.
The EU has had 8 major emergency summits so far this year. 8! And in amongst all this posturing and elaborate lunches, they have achieved the sum total of **** all!!! They have put precisely nothing/nowt/zip/nada in place that has done the slightest thing to defuse the financial apocalypse looming ever closer the horizon.
Cost estimates for those "emergency summits" and "elaborate lunches", anyone?
A nice summary of the LibDem position in todays [url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/there-is-no-way-back-for-clegg-and-toxic-libdems.16152476 ]Herald[/url]
cots estimates, it depends?
I heard Subway do outside catering which can be quite good value. did they have sandwiches delivered?
C'tain - I was thinking the same watching the news clips! What is the collective noun for this mass of useless bureaucrats. A tragedy?
For the record, I've always been very pro EU. But whats going on in Brussels to me is not only an utter and complete shambles, but the very sparse an ultimately futile solutions being proposed are profoundly anti-democratic.
I'm genuinely mystified by your attitude to this TJ. Seriously. You always strike me as a firm advocate of democracy (hence your independence position) - yet what the EU is proposing is handing the real power in Europe to faceless, unelected and unaccountable technocrats in Brussels, who will effectively dictate government policy to what will essentially become provinces
2 Countries in Europe have had governments imposed on them. In Italy not one single member of the cabinet has ever stood for election.
Do you seriously tihnk this is a healthy state of affairs? And one we should be supporting. I bloody don't!
Cost estimates for those "emergency summits" and "elaborate lunches", anyone?
less than ferrying verity around the globe and less than Dave pays for consultants
How much influence do you think you have over the last few govts we have had Binners and how much of this influence has bee eroded? Did you want a condem alliance did you want to go to iraq ? Libya? Etc
As I have f all influence over the politicians within the UK you really cannot steal it from me .
I get your point but it is hardly like the uk does not do the same – See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats” we are only arguing about the location of these people and the size of the state that does it
We are hardly some superb example of how the govt always does what the people want or we would have the death penalty and not be in Europe as two easy examples to think off
I get your point but it is just as true here as there.
Since the summit and veto appears to have resolved the sum of bugger all i'm struggleing to see what all the fuss is about.
No one has got to grips with the fundemetal problem and instability of the Euro. It's still borked.
Treaty or no treaty the outcome is the same. Unless the Germans actually allow full integration with the ECB as lender of last resort the whole currency is doomed. DOOOOMED I tell you 😡
I'm genuinely mystified by your attitude to this TJ. Seriously. You always strike me as a firm advocate of democracy
.....unless you are a Libyan, in which case you need to do what your Gadaffi masters say.
Junkyard - are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece? 😯
We don't like your government, so we're installing this one. And there's **** all you can do. Lots of love. Brussels
Junkyard - are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece?
Maybe, just another one of those people arguing for a reduction in the role of governments and the size of the public sector. Reckon we will see a lot of that over the coming months.
At least many of these people are actually elected and answerable at an election. Contrast that with the people who "may" now be determining the power of state's to control taxation and spending!???!!
See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats”
Totally overblown Daily Mail nonsense.
Junkyard - are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece?
No – i am simply showing that we have unelected bureocrats here and we have people/govts who ignore the wishes of the people in the UK we don’t need to just rant at the EU for this as all democracies do this to some degree. Are you denying this ?
We don't like your government, so we're installing this one. And there's **** all you can do. Lots of love. Brussels
Have you heard of the IMF binners? I am not saying it is good but other agencies would be doing it if these countries were not in the EU and effectively bankrupt.
Maybe, just another one of those people arguing for a reduction in the role of governments and the size of the public sector. Reckon we will see a lot of that over the coming months.
EH ? 😯 I work in the public sector and I am a union rep and I would distribute all income and wealth evenly [ is it not obvious I am too the left of most folk?] - why would you think I am a right winger who wants a minimalist state? We need something to reign in the excesses of capitalism and make the world a fairer place for all.
At least many of these people are actually elected and answerable at an election. Contrast that with the people who "may" now be determining the power of state's to control taxation and spending!
See IMF and uk in the 70s and other countries beholden to them
I get your point it is not good and it is [ to some degree] not democratic but it is BS to suggest it only happen in Europe – that is my only point
I am largely indifferent to Europe as I dont care where the govt that ignores me sits tbh
See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats”Totally overblown Daily Mail nonsense.
What quangos are neither technocrats or they dont have power? - the daily fail may rant about them but they do meet that descriptions. I would not call them technocrats but nor would I call the people in europe technocrats. the label would seem to be equally applicable to both
Tis interesting most folk really do hate europe and how anti democratic it is whilst ignoring the sam elack of democracy in our backyard
"A Tragedy of Bureaucrats". 😆
Teamhurtmoe - you claim to be pro europe - but actually you don't want the EU that we have. Well thats tough - you either play by the rules or you don't play. You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don't.
I would prefer to be at the heart of Europe pressing for what we want rather than marginalised on the edge with no influence at all. If the UK enganged fully with the EU it would have huge influence as a result of its economic power. Now we have next to none
you either play by the rules or you don't play - You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don't.
TJ - nobody appears to have told the French this, who simply ignore everything they don't like. And always have. See: fishing quotas, the Common Agricultural Policy. Rules on government subsidies to private business etc etc
And obviously all the Southern states have, from the beginninng, been rigorously adhering to the EU rules on debt as % of GDP, and budget deficits
interesting this can I accuse binners of sounding like the Daily Mail?
We seem to get some strong and polarised views on Europe 😯
So now the problem is we follow the rules but Johnny foreigner does not.....you know what you would say were this another thread Is it too early to bring in race ar shall i wait till you say Germany is stampeding across the EU like a panza division 😉
I would prefer to be at the heart of Europe pressing for what we want rather than marginalised on the edge with no influence at all. If the UK enganged fully with the EU it would have huge influence as a result of its economic power. Now we have next to none
So you'd like to be on the bridge of the titanic not sat helpless on Portsmouth harbour?
we havent lost any power in Europe, and we are not marginalised
its all just bluff and posturing, because despite the bile from all sides, Europe needs the UK as much as the UK needs Europe.
maybe 40% of our trade is with Europe, but think about how much Europe trades with us, they cant afford for us to be not part of the free trade and they dont want to lose our markets for their products either.
Basically nothing happened last week and the markets havent reacted and business carries on regardless.
TJ - nobody appears to have told the French this, who simply ignore everything they don't like. And always have. See: fishing quotas, the Common Agricultural Policy. Rules on government subsidies to private business etc etc
Do they? or is that just how the media depict them? Much like the EU being a German plan to take over Europe its all nonsense.
As for breaking EU rules, Germany has been fined more than any country for breaking rules, it just dosent pay them.
Were all as bad as each other us Europeans.
Junkyard - its my age. Give me a few years and I'll be writing to the Daily Telegraph in green ink 😉
Hmmmm TJ, so you would rather all of our hard earned went to support the hardworking Greeks or the insolvent Portuese through some half baked and as yet not fully disclosed agreement that the markets have already rejected?
Or would you rather that the UK stood up for it's own interests and not become a Euro lemming running scared? Sure, the problems in the EU will affect UK trade, but this will be the same whether we are in or out.
The Euro will collapse - there's no question about that. The debate is how long the whole pantomime is strung along for. There are countries in the Euro that should never have been allowed to join. Because of the huge differences between member states then a single fiscal policy was never doing to suit every country in the Eurozone and as a result things are now starting to unravel big time.
The UK is far better outside all of this mess and able to plot it's own course in choppy waters.
Face it - nothing will come of the 17 plus deal anyway, as Sarkozy will be gone by May!
The interesting dynamic will be what happens if the French people start looking like they are going elect the wrong person...
We've seen what happend to "democracy" in creece and Italy!8O
workshy Greeks
See that's the type of statement that just shows hatred for Europe, it destroys your argument in the first sentence.
Would none-taxpaying, extremely early retiring Greeks be more acceptable then? Its certainly accurate
Northern star - Camerons veto has no bearing on this at all. None. thats a part of the issue. All he has done is make it harder for us to be heard when things are decided and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.