[Closed] Calling all amateur chiropractors

See a professional .
Worth the expense in long run

Calling all amateur chiropractors

Is there any other kind? </troll>

I would get down the osteopath sharpish. These things don't heal, the body works around them

Is there any other kind? </troll>

Brian Hammond

The candidate for Sutton & Cheam? Not seeing it myself.

Do the ride, then go see a chiropractor.

because he is 'also' the candidate for sutton and cheam

see a professional.

You wouldn't see an idiot about mending your car, and your back is worth more.

see a doctor, osteopath or orthopaedic surgeon; not a chiropractor.

see a doctor,

Take some ibuprofen

osteopath

or orthopaedic surgeon;

not a chiropractor.

Clickety click, you'll feel 66

Quackery, no. Osteopath, absolutely.

Well, to be fair, some fairly wild claims are made about the benefits of Chiropractic, but as straightforward bonesetters, they've been good for me and excellent for folks i know who suffered from sciatica

...which is odd, because that's one of the afflictions that Chiropractic hasn't been proven efficacious for. Lower back pain, maybe.

Perhaps your humours were misaligned, disrupting your body's innate intelligence, and your sciatica was just a side effect.

http://chiromt.com/content/18/1/3

i didn't have sciatica

Sorted out my sciatica & lower back problems (& for my g/f a qualified nurse - she recommended the chiro to me), which it seems were connected. Also gave me stretchs/exercises, which once I bothered to do regularly have lessened my need to see her.
Throughly recommend my Mc Timoney chiropractor & would happily recommend her to anyone (west mid based).

I think one of the problems of the RCT Meta-Analysis cited by Cougar is that in dealt with sciatica as a single concept. There are a number of causes of sciatica, some of which may be easily by chiropractic as such the effect size is an agglomeration of two constructs.

woow man, that's far to heavy for me...

Oh and see educated me about my everyday posture, whilst at work and driving that improved things no end.. she's ****in great, I tell ya!

Cougar - couple of questions for you. Have you ever had back pain? Have you ever used a Chiropractor?

I know you are dismissive of them. Why?

i didn't have sciatica

Sorry, misunderstood. What did you have?

my g/f a qualified nurse - she recommended the chiro to me

I'd respectfully suggest that she reads up on what it is before doling out advice.

the effect size is an agglomeration of two constructs.

This may be true, but neither of those constructs have anything to do with straight chiropractic. It's entirely possible that the practitioner also did some other non-chiropractic things (known in the trade as a 'mixer') which did actually do some good, or it could just be the placebo effect.

No, i mean that there are many causes of sciatica. If you treat them all with Chiropractic, then some forms are cured immediately others not. So overall, it looks like chiropractic is no good. You need to disaggregate the results into the different forms.

It's entirely possible that the practitioner also did some other non-chiropractic things (known in the trade as a 'mixer') which did actually do some good, or it could just be the placebo effect.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the study here. It would seem that you are not and are perhaps referring to zippy, so I'll leave it. Unless of course you mean the study.

i didn't have sciatica
...
Sorry, misunderstood. What did you have?

Lower back pain.

May I suggest voodoo.

Have you ever had back pain?

Not that required treatment.

Have you ever used a Chiropractor?

No.

I know you are dismissive of them. Why?

Because they're out of the same school of horseshit peddlers as homeopathists. Chiropractic is borne out of vitalistic medicine, which is what we had before we knew anything about biology (it's the same 'chi' gibberish that has hippies buying power crystals). The basic premise is that all (yes, all) disease is down to problems with the body's natural intelligence and that spinal manipulation restores imbalances in your [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_four_humours ]humours[/url] and suchlike.

Chiropracty these days is keeping its head above water largely because in addition to the horseshit, some practitioners are mixing in efficacious western treatments such as massages and heat / cold applications. So then people come away telling strangers on the Internet how good it is.

It's got mainstream acceptance, in contrast to a lot of the new age / TCM "alternative medicine" industry, perhaps because they sneak in some actual treatment when no-one's looking. A lot of people erroneously believe it's a conventional, proven therapy. It's not, and I find it ingenuous that they try to hide this fact.

Dunno what you've done, but it sounds fairly similar to my problems. My physio alyays said riding would be fine, chiropractor says no way. Physio was wrong, chiropractor correct IME. Rode only 30 miles this weekend, can't walk without drugs so far this week 🙁

Doctor recommended I try chiro too as an alternative to physio. I am feeling an improvement over the month, but it may be just because I've held off the cycling until last weekend. If this doesn't work I might see an osteopath, just to get the set:) Is it like monopoly, and I can build houses on them at that point? The opposite would appear true at the moment, they are building houses on me 👿

[url= http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/07/beware-spinal-trap.html ]Reprint of Simon Singh's 'Spine Wizards' article that he was sued for libel for (he won!)[/url]

Because they're out of the same school of horseshit peddlers as homeopathists. Chiropractic is borne out of vitalistic medicine, which is what we had before we knew anything about biology (it's the same 'chi' gibberish that has hippies buying power crystals). The basic premise is that all (yes, all) disease is down to problems with the body's natural intelligence and that spinal manipulation restores imbalances in your humours and suchlike

Yes, some say that, but others say that it is just about fixing muscleoskeletal misalignments and nothing more. I believe those guys

Cougar - OK, fair enough, that's your opinion. But, if you had excruciating back pain, would you want treatment? If so, who would you consult with?

I agree with you about other alternative treatments, can't get my head around reflexology etc etc.

Rich - sorry to hear that you're in pain, nothing to do with Dartmoor? 😉 Do hope you get fixed soon.

my g/f a qualified nurse - she recommended the chiro to me
I'd respectfully suggest that she reads up on what it is before doling out advice.

& I respectfully retain the right to believe someone who actually worked in the medical world, rather than just reads up on it. My experience, I had back pains, now I don't, I'll stick with the my chiropractor thanks. I had no expectations but had an issue that need dealing with, it got dealt with. As with cycling, there more than one type of chiropractor, not all of them signed up for the S. Singh case, yet there all branded with that now.

Yes, some say that, but others say that it is just about fixing muscleoskeletal misalignments and nothing more. I believe those guys

That's your privilege, of course. A lot of people believe in a lot of hokey stuff. Creationists, for instance.

OK, fair enough, that's your opinion.

Well, no, it's not opinion at all, it's fact.

But, if you had excruciating back pain, would you want treatment? If so, who would you consult with?

An osteopath, most likely. Or someone else with actual reputable medical credentials.

I respectfully retain the right to believe someone who actually worked in the medical world, rather than just reads up on it.

It's called "false authority syndrome" but, yes, again, that's your privilege.

can't get my head around reflexology etc etc.

Sounds like you're getting it mixed up with phrenology (-:

Lol

there more than one type of chiropractor

Yes, I said this. There's two.

"Straight" chiropractors believe in the vitalistic approach exclusively. This lot are actually in decline now.

"Mixer" chiropractors offer conventional treatments in addition to the woo, and shuffle their feet and look a bit embarrassed when asked about the holistic nonsense that their profession was founded on. Which is kinda groovy, but they'd be being a lot more honest about the whole thing if they dropped the pretence that they're chiropractors and started calling themselves "backologists" or something.

Problem is, chiropractic therapy is big business (it's something like the third largest medical profession, or something similar) so it's not going to go away anytime soon when there's all that money still to be fleeced out of people who don't understand what it is (or don't want to).

"Mixer" chiropractors offer conventional treatments in addition to the woo, and shuffle their feet and look a bit embarrassed when asked about the holistic nonsense that their profession was founded on.

Mine doesn't mention any of that bullshit, and appears to do very similar manipulations to my physio. do you feel the same way about physiotherapy?

Actually, I've had two physios. The NHS one told me plenty, but only gave me exercises that crippled me. Lost faith in her tbh.

Here's a bit of good advice for the OP. Do some basic stretches to gauge the pain in your back. Then go and do a flat out 25 mile ride. If your back hurts a lot more immediately or even over the next few days, I'd not think the massive ride is a good idea. I KNOW you want to do it, I did too. At some point, I might take my own advice 😀

Mine doesn't mention any of that bullshit, and appears to do very similar manipulations to my physio

How would you know? Have you asked why they're poking a particular bit? Physios don't go much in for subluxation, last I checked.

Anyway. If they're doing the same manipulations, why isn't (s)he a physiotherapist?

do you feel the same way about physiotherapy?

Well, no, because it's based on crazy, out-there concepts such as biology and anatomy and its efficacy is well proven.

I find it difficult to understand people who go to bat defending discredited alternative medical systems with no basis in fact or science.

Chiro is quackery, a pseudoscience alternative medical system that makes great claims, in other words woo woo.

Hark at these keyboard warriors who have diddly squat experience of it. 🙄

If someone told me they knew a magic word that could cure cancer, would I need to 'experience' it first hand before I could dismiss it as BS?

I've had lower back pain, I sensibly went to physiotherapy via my GP because to paraphrase [b][i]it's based on concepts such as biology and anatomy and its efficacy is well proven[/i][/b], fine now. I however don't think you need experience of quackery to see the woo woo.
They used to boldly claim they could treat among many things asthma, allergies, depression, high blood pressure,...

I know she doesn't mention any of that bullshit because I have ears, and she hasn't mentioned any of that bullshit. If she did, I'd be less keen to go again.

I know she appears to do very similar manipulations to my physio because the movements are similar. They are a bit less painful in certain techniques. FWIW, the bits she's poking are the same as my private physio and my NHS physio. She's made a few good points, related to cycling, which neither of the others made.

No idea why she isn't a physiotherapist, perhaps they aren't as well paid? I'll ask her tomorrow if you like. Anyway I have a timeframe for treatment and a comparison to make with my physio sessions. Like I said, Osteopath might well be next if it doesn't work out.

've had lower back pain, I sensibly went to physiotherapy via my GP because to paraphrase it's based on concepts such as biology and anatomy and its efficacy is well proven, fine now.

I've had lower back pain, I sensibly went to physiotherapy via my GP because to paraphrase it's based on concepts such as biology and anatomy and its efficacy is well proven. I came away crippled. Can you see why I might have less confidence than you in that approach?

All of these people saying that they came away from physio crippled - do you know that that is exactly what was meant to happen after your initial appointment? Answer me this question - How are you meant to know what causes the pain if you dont find something that causes the same pain? It's called a comparable sign and is pretty much what physio is based on. See if you go back more than once you'll actually get some treatment that will take the pain away.

My gf is a physio... Chiro is blox.. akin to homeopathy.. as has been said by Cougar. I've just chipped in because a) I totally agree with Cougar and b) I have the ear of a professional who knows about this crap.

If I rubbed your back for 5 minutes you'd probably feel better.
If I rubbed your back and told you I was realigning your spirit to enable energy to flow through to the nerve centres and thus ease the pain, you'd probably feel better too.

Please don't fall for this nonsense - It's disapointing more than anything.

I know she doesn't mention any of that bullshit because I have ears, and she hasn't mentioned any of that bullshit.

What I mean is, it's not going to be information she's going to readily offer unprompted. She's not about to stand there telling you that you've got an excess of blood and not enough bile, so she's going to manipulate your spine to fix your sinus problems. Probably because she knows she'll get that reaction.

But, I'm repeating myself. If she's doing "the same" as a physio, what you need there, call me Mr Crazy, is perhaps a physio.

Can you see why I might have less confidence than you in that approach?

Maybe you had a bad physio. (S)he did it wrong. People are human, gods know I've had a couple of dreadful GPs in my time, doesn't mean that medicine 'doesn't work.' I can see why you'd not want to go back though, it's hard to be objective.

Err...OK thanks for all the replies 🙂 have just got back from a 6-mile fireroad amble and everything seems to be working ok but there's still tension when i stand up.

Interesting comments re chiro vs osteo

Wow, I genuinely had NO idea that some people got so worked up about Chiropractors!
I'd suffered from back pain for years due to a problem with my spine. NHS had only ever offered painkillers as a solution.
A friend who is a very good climber recommended a chiropractor and I went along to see her.
Turns out she is a kayaker and mountain biker (the 2 activities that cause most pain for me) and she has sorted me out. Gave me a list of stretches and exercises to do, specific for my activities and was able to treat individual problems from my neck to me knees.

She has NEVER mentioned energy flow, crystals, chi or my spiritual well being or owt else bollocks.
She has told me how one problem can cause another and what to do when that occurs.

Basically she has kept me working in the outdoor industry into me mid-30s when I thought I'd have to give it all up aged 28...

I've also seen many a physio to sort out breaks and dislocations and their methods seem fairly similar.

I'm really astonished by the venom some people have for chiropractors!
Quite why you would see a problem in my treatment or the person who gave it I have no idea, isn't there room for a bit of everything?

I find it difficult to understand people who go to bat defending discredited alternative medical systems with no basis in fact or science

[quote= re-physio]its efficacy is well proven.

You saw the RCT studies cited earlier didn't you? In fact, Cougar, wasn't it your own evidence?

Spinal manipulation/mobilization is effective in adults for: acute, subacute, and chronic low back pain; migraine and cervicogenic headache; cervicogenic dizziness; manipulation/mobilization is effective for several extremity joint conditions; and thoracic manipulation/mobilization is effective for acute/subacute neck pain.

SBZ, had a course consisting of 5 visits I think. Despite me telling her, each time I was given sets of exercises to do which I couldn't physically complete. I'd agree, maybe she was just a poor exponent of the art.

But, I'm repeating myself. If she's doing "the same" as a physio, what you need there, call me Mr Crazy, is perhaps a physio.

She's cheaper than a physio 😉 As I've said, If she can fix me quicker than the 1st physio then I'll be happy. There has been improvement, don't really give a toss if that's because of using physio techniques or pixie dust, I just want to get better. She's been happy to tell me that cycling was exacerbating my condition, the two physios said the opposite. They were wrong.

OK, I haven't read all fifty posts, but it sounds like the sacro-iliac thingy that I had until a nice osteopath fixed it.

A patient of mine had his vertebral artery dissected by a chiropractor treating neck pain a few years ago. He was lucky. No permanent brain injury, just needed 6 months on warfarin.
This fact alone is enough to put me off.

A friend of mine had his bacterial endocarditis diagnosed as a bad cold by a doctor. That fact alone is enough to make me far more wary.

There is a slight difference between missing a diagnosis and causing a stroke by over-manipulating the cervical spine.
First rule: cause no harm.
To be fair most of the letters I see from chiropractors seems to indicate that they use spinal manipulation to treat spinal problems. Although I guess they wouldn't write to the gp to say that they are going to re-align someone's chakras.

docrobster - did the chiropractor screen for VBI or did the just forget about that bit?

Also there is a Cochrane review on manipulation and mobilisation. It says this:

Conclusions. Mobilization and/or manipulation when used with exercise are beneficial for persistent mechanical neck disorders with or without headache. Done alone, manipulation and/or mobilization were not beneficial; when compared to one another, neither was superior.

There is a slight difference between missing a diagnosis and causing a stroke by over-manipulating the cervical spine.

Yes there is a difference, but there is also a similarity

Evening all, can I re-join the party? OK, am now fuelled up by liver and bacon, red wine and some qwality rock muzak. 8)

Can't believe some of this stuff I'm reading! Chakras, homeopathy, dissected artery. 😯

Before my Chiropractor commenced any treatment and after a lengthy interrogation, I was x-rayed. Obviously I questioned the necessity of this but it was explained to me. After just one treatment I was able to walk, previously I'd been crawling around on all fours.

Actually, I had the same as slowoldgit - sacro-illiac joint and it was all jammed up.

I have complete confidence in my Chiropractor as he actually got to the root of the problem whereas over the years, physios and podiatrists and, indeed, a surgeon, hadn't been able to find the [b]cause[/b].

Question for you - why was your SI joint all jammed up? Considering that it's a joint that has a very small amount of movement I am not convinced that it would cause a whole lot of pain through being jammed up.

Judging by the amount of wear shown up on the x-ray, chances are it had been there since childhood. Compounded by 10 years of running, sometimes 6 days a week, walking including mountains, being thrown off horses etc. My pelvis was effectively tilted so I was lop-sided!

You saw the RCT studies cited earlier didn't you? In fact, Cougar, wasn't it your own evidence?

Yeah. I was trying to give it credit where it was due, but looking closer I may have been a little hasty with that report. The efficacious treatments listed there are for "spinal manipulation," it's not actually clear whether they're looking at chiropractic or osteopathic treatments.

I've just found that same report linked from Wikipedia and flagged as "unbalanced opinion," which is unsurprising as it's on a Chiropractic website. So in hindsight it was perhaps a bad example.

Ho hum.

Agreed Charlie all treatments have potential for harm.
In this case when I saw the guy after he said he had signed a consent/disclaimer listing stroke as a potential adverse effect so the chiropractor was safe. No idea whether the chiropractor screened for VBI

Anyway this is OT. The OP was about low back pain. The most effect treatment for simple low back pain is [url= http://http://www.tsoshop.co.uk/bookstore.asp?Action=Book&ProductId=9780117029491 ]this little book[/url] that costs a couple of quid.

[img] [/img]

To add my twopenneth worth, I had recurring neck pain and restricted movement. Saw all manner of people and it was a Chiro that sorted it. Was very sceptical at first but the basic premise what that a couple of my vertabrae were locked and causing pressure on a nerve. An X-Ray and about 12 sessions of less than 10 mins treatment (adjustments/clicks) and it was sorted.

Evidence enough for me.

And it was all paid for by BUPA. And if I trust anyone to figure out what treatment works and what doesn't its a bunch of actuaries.

How long did your treatment take CG?

I've just found that same report linked from Wikipedia and flagged as "unbalanced opinion," which is unsurprising as it's on a Chiropractic website.

But it was carried out according to the Cochrane guidelines, so it is hard to fault it. And unfair to call it "unbalanced opinion"

Rich - once the Chiropractor had diagnosed, it did take about 12 treatments. I tried to go back to running but was still in pain so had to give up.

Nowadays, probably twice a year. He said as long as I carry on mtb'ing I will still have to see him!

CG > did no-one else send you for an x-ray? Sounds to me that that's less a case of "yay, chiropractic!" and more a case of your doctor being crap?

Still, I'm glad it worked for you. Perhaps if they dropped vertebral subluxation and the rest of straight chiropractic cobblers once and for all, and then bundled together everything that was left over, there might be a reputable profession left behind. Or perhaps all you'd be left with is a physiotherapist and a nice cup of tea and a sit down. *shrugs*

The most effect treatment for simple low back pain is this little book that costs a couple of quid

Oh you horrid tease! You doctors and your secrets!

So you had to have a lot of treatment by anyones standard, have to go back twice a year and they say that you will have the problem as long as you keep biking.... And you think this is working? I would be running a mile in the opposite direction.

I don't get tea. Am I being ripped off Cougar? Cheers for the info CG, Maybe I'm just being a bit tight because I want a quicker fix than that. I also really want to ride my bike, and I don't have long before our baby is born. Meh 🙁

But it was carried out according to the Cochrane guidelines, so it is hard to fault it. And unfari to call it "unbalanced opinion"

That's not infallible, but yes, I take your point.

Oh you horrid tease! You doctors and your secrets!

The link was broken, correct link is [url= http://www.tsoshop.co.uk/bookstore.asp?Action=Book&ProductId=9780117029491 ]here[/url]

Just got back from a ride and read this post with some interest. I suffered bad shoulder / neck pains for years following a fall playing football. I had seen at 4 different physio's, an osteopath and a couple of GP's. none could cure it. My chiropractor did in 6 visits. Before I went I was as sceptical as Cougar. She fixed a "pregnancy" problem my wife had that was causing her considerable pain and she persuaded me to go. A friend I bike with told me they fixed his back (I didn't know he went until I met him once in the waiting room)
This is in defence of chiropractors. I have no idea of the science but I have seen it works at least for some people. Fact.

I don't get tea. Am I being ripped off Cougar?

Oh, I'd complain about that. (-:

Listen folks, I've said my bit, whether you agree / disagree / believe is up to the individual at the end of the day. Anecdotal evidence and the placebo effect are both very powerful things, you need to make your own minds up.

I'd suggest though that the Internet is thataway --> and if you're considering a chiropractor you might want to go and look into the theories and philosophies that chiropractic is built on.

I've got what is potentially a career-changing meeting tomorrow and I'm quietly bricking it, so I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now at least; I need to try and get some R&R rather than keeping my brain in gear. I'm going to go and see if I can find a thread with lolcats on it.

Cheers though, it's been interesting. I might come back to this if it's still raging tomorrow.

Good luck with the meeting.

Yeah good luck!

Cougar - no, was not sent for an x-ray. I'm afraid I have very little faith in GP's these days. My surgery seem very reluctant to send anyone to see a consultant, physio etc. Not sure if it's tied up with funding or they simply CBA.

Surrounded By Zulus - my body was a wreck due to me MTFU'ing all the time and ignoring all pain! I was probably mid-40's when the cause was discovered annd obviously it takes longer to recover when you are older.

I'm a bit lax in doing stretches after riding, as recommended. Coupled with driving, sitting at a PC, it's inevitable that it becomes jammed up.

Rich - you're more sensible than me though! If Chiro says 'don't ride' then do exactly that. If your body says 'don't ride' then listen to it too. Otherwise it's a waste of money. Hang in there and be positive. How long til baby arrives?

Good luck Cougar. 🙂

These shared experiences are great!

CG if you are wondering why the gp didn't send you for an X-ray, they're not being crap or tight with the money, just following nice guidelines:
[url] http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/11887/44345/44345.pdf ][/url] xrays don't alter management.
Chiropractors seem to read xrays differently than Drs.
Virtually every letter I see from a chiropractor says the patient has sacro-iliac joint dysfunction or something similar.
The facts are that neither physio chiropractor or osteopathic treatment any better than than simple advice (ie the back book, thanks for correcting my link cougar and good luck with the meeting.)
Of course this didn't stop me going to see a physio when I had a bad back. I felt better after I'd been. Despite the evidence telling me not to bother. Go figure!

Another vote for chiropracty here. 5 years of back pain that the doc/physio and osteo couldn't keep away ....then I visited my local chiro in exeter who got to the root of the problem and kept me almost pain free ever since without needing multiple regular visits. IMHO and experience it's pretty ignorant and somewhat arrogant to dismiss them all as quacks when it's a fact they help many that the doc etc doesn't or can't.

docrobster - that link isn't working. I'm possibly being cynical but have since changed to a different GP. Obviously glad that your back is sorted though. 🙂

FWIW the first Chiropractor I consulted (checked his credentials obviously) did a good job of convincing me that I was getting better over a course of many months. My body did not feel any better but he was terribly persuasive.

I realised he was a con artist, contacted the regulatory body about him, and was advised to put a complaint in writing to him as the first step. This I did and received a reply along the lines of 'well, you said you were feeling better'. I should have persued this but was so unhappy at not being able to lead an active life. However, a little while later I saw in the local newspaper that he had been taken to Court by a disgruntled patient and was thus removed by the regulatory body.