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Having just observed someone - thankfully - just keeping a very large Bully type dog under control, it really got me thinking why?
Serious question - there may be some here who own such, but curious about the decision making behind such a selection...
Since the introduction of the dangerous dogs act in 1991, there hasn't been a correspondingly significant change in the number of dog attacks.
It's almost like government wants to be seen to do something but doesn't know what to do or doesn't have the will to do what needs to be done.
The fact that whether an animal is in the banned list or not seems to be subjective rather than repeatably proven by scientific means suggests the system is flawed
Yes, some dogs can be dangerous and people need to be protected from that but destroying dogs because someone things it looks like a breed that someone else thinks is dangerous is a flawed system.
I'm also believe that the root cause on the whole, is more people centric than dog centric.
Dangerous Dogs Act was a load of crap.
I used to own a Staffie, but they're not exactly huge. And whilst they might look like a pair of mobile jaws from the wrong angle, they are also total clowns.
With that said, I can't see a genuine need for a bully breed four or five times the weight of a Staffie. That goes a little beyond "family pet". They're weapons. Not dogs.
Aggressive people like dogs with a reputation for being aggressive?
I know that's not always the case. In fact, we see someone with an xl bully with the muzzle etc and he and his dog are very nice seemingly.
However, ime there seems to be some correlation between the image you want to put out and the breed of dog you favour.
We've got a Bordoodle so I guess that suggests our intentions 😂
take a look at the top ten breeds that bite. i'd be surprised if it featured heavily those types of dogs many would suspect. last time i looked it was all dachshunds and chihuahuas. my old boss had a couple of english bull terriers one after the other they adopted. his missus had grown up with bullys and liked their nature. i always thought they were ugly as sin and pretty flawed TBH but the amount of times he'd get stopped by women who would proclaim how beautiful they were never ceased to amaze me - off the charts! they were never any trouble. probably less trouble than my old spaniel who you would think butter wouldn't melt...
Don't see many headlines about chihuahuas killing people though. A dog was killed in an unprovoked attack by two XL Bullys 200 yards from my house. One of two attacks by those dogs within a week.
Second attack here.
I've got friends (not in the UK!) who have a Dogo Argentino which they got from a dog rescue organization. They (my friends) are the complete opposite of the stereotypical aggressive/macho type!
I have no idea why they chose this dog but they are very careful where they take it as he looks very intimidating and he's bloody strong (I've walked him several times and its exhausting).
However, outside of some initial excitement and exuberance/wanting to play (typical of many dogs), he's very docile and well trained. Still, I'm somewhat nervous around him though as his jaw is massive and very powerful...
irc - that's horrific. i suppose the point i was badly trying to illustrate was that all dog breeds can be shits if poorly trained and/or subjected to enough abuse.
I had a Saturday job back in the 80s on a milk round - badly trained small dogs were a ****ing nightmare for being aggressive. Though they are not big enough to badly harm an adult, which is the difference with the Bully XLs and similar. The system is very flawed, bad owners are a bigger issue than bad dogs, but a bad big dog is too much of a risk for anyone without an image to enhance/create.
Do seem to be more reports of dogs attacking sheep in the last few weeks here in Derbyshire, been some awful events, and no pattern with breeds. Maybe if the farmers could shoot the owners instead of the dogs....
Have to admit that I always thought Staffies were intimidating looking dogs but have now had dealings with quite a few recently and they are just daft and soppy.
The dogs I avoid the most are the small ones but it's generally okay because they're smaller and can't do as much damage or at least that's what all the owners think whereas in reality they terrified the poop out of my last dog and she was 40kg.
'they are one of the softest-tempered and sweetest dogs around! They are happy, sociable, and borderline boisterous, offering owners a bubbly and infectious personality similar to * and *.
* dogs would love to play all day and are comfortable indoors. They are happy with outdoor environments as well such as doggy daycare or a dog park. Plus, they are very smart and versatile in their play styles, making anything a fun game.
The Kennel Club’s breed standard notes that these * breeds are intelligent yet obedient, which makes them a great choice for families and solo owners alike. * do well with other four-legged family members and are kind to newcomers, so long as they don’t think they’re a threat.'
Here is a description of the character traits of one such breed that you're wondering why people own. Now without seeing the breed/name nor a visual representation, I'd be surprised you can think of a reason not to own one. They're a good medium size with a nice easy coat to maintain as well. The trouble is like with so many other things you're seeing the representation from the media and all the bad stories, not all the good stuff.
One of my students has a chihuahua. He told me they were bread as guard dogs. Not as in being able to stop a burglar, more like a mobile burglar alarm.
I teach the dangerous dogs act in criminology and up until last year was firmly in the it's the owners that are the problem camp.
I had a wee read about the statistics on bully XL and pitbulls. It changed my mind. It's probably impossible to separate people who want a dangerous strong dog from the behaviours of dangerous strong dogs.
I can't find the articles I read last time. The BBC are a bit less specific on numbers.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66775985.amp
According to the latest data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), as at 18 October 2024, there had been seven deaths as a result of dog attacks since the start of the year. There were 19 deaths in 2023, and six in 2022.
In several cases, XL bullies are known to have killed their owners, including David Daintree, 53, in August 2024, and Angeline Mahal, who was in her 50s, in May 2024.
Nicholas Glass, 33, also died in August after being attacked by four dogs - including two XL bullies.
Other people killed by XL bullies include 10-year-olds Savannah Bentham andJack Lis,68-year-old Esther Martin, 54-year-old Ian Langley, 52-year-old Ian Price, Threshold Ann Dunn and 17-month-old Bella-Rae Birch.
So 32 deaths due to dogs in 3 years. 10(?) from bully xl's.
There's not that many bully XL in the UK, seems very high.
USA
I'm not vouching for theses stats, I've read similar else where.
https://www.askadamskutner.com/dog-bites/bite-statistics-according-to-dog-breed/
Bite statistics according to dog breed
The most recent dog bite statistics by breed that were responsible for a dog bite-related fatality include the following:
Pit Bulls: 284 deaths
Rottweiler: 45 deaths
German Shepherd: 20 deaths
Mixed breeds: 17 deaths
American Bulldog: 15 deaths
Mastiff: 14 deaths
Siberian Husky: 13 deaths
Labrador Retriever: 9 deaths
Boxer: 7 deaths
Doberman Pinscher: 6 deaths
Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have received an unfavorable reputation; combining the figures for both dogs adds up to 76% of fatal dog attacks. However, most breeds on the list have stronger bite forces than other dogs.
Idle, non scientific observation.....as a child of the '70s it was 'Alsatians' I have the most memory of being frightened of. The barking and baring of teeth of a dog straining at a leash is a vivid repeated memory. In the 2020's I can't think if I've met a German Shepherd that was not a well behaved, well trained credit to their human. If I were to have a dog, it's the breed I'm most drawn to which I would have never have thought 30 or more years ago. It's almost like the dafties have moved on to another breed to project their personality and lack of care through.
XL bully is a hell of a lot of animal in the wrong hands mind. Which is I guess the point - we have to legislate for the crappiest of our fellow humans. Wife works for the SSPCA - they ended up euthanising a good number in the days after the laws changed last year. Apparently they were mostly lovely behaved creatures in the days leading up to it having been given up by their owners weeks/months earlier.
It's almost like the dafties have moved on to another breed to project their personality and lack of care through.
Some dogs are worse than others though eg a Staffordshire bull terrier would need some proper effort into making it a menace whereas a Malinois bored and ill socialised could well manage it by itself.
The bullys xl do seem to have a particular problem. This suggests UK ones are a)particularly inbred and b)many descend from one dog which seems to have been unstable and ended up killing someone.
Reminds me of some friends of my parents when I was a kid. They had various Labradors (think anyway one of those types) and had one which was just a complete nutter to anyone outside the family. Always walked muzzled and at quiet times.
All their other dogs were great its just this one had something wrong in its head and I think if it had been with people less experienced it would have probably ended up being put down.
Do seem to be more reports of dogs attacking sheep in the last few weeks here in Derbyshire, been some awful events, and no pattern with breeds. Maybe if the farmers could shoot the owners instead of the dogs....
To an extent, it is the owners. People have no idea (or don’t care) that their dog shouldn’t be off the lead near livestock, or on shared use paths for that matter. Every time I go out on the moors on my bike I will see several dogs running free off the lead where there are sheep.
They had various Labradors (think anyway one of those types) and had one which was just a complete nutter to anyone outside the family.
Not really a dog person, but my experience with Labs, including my brothers Lab Honey, is that they’re wonderfully friendly dogs, which is why they are often crossed with Retrievers; the only thing they have to be stopped from doing is eating everything that’s available, the end result being a distinct resemblance to the Foodyear Blimp. So maybe that one had fallen on its head as a puppy.
And whilst they might look like a pair of mobile jaws from the wrong angle, they are also total clowns.
Bodie after a meeting with an off-lead total clown in December 2021. This was after the drain was removed, there are pics with lots of blood too. The right hand tooth mark is a through bite and cost the other owner £400 in vets fees (it was pay or have the dog reported & destroyed). Staffies can be lovely dogs but my personal experience is that walking them without concentration by the owner is bad form. (My daughter had one and whilst I could walk him off-lead under control, she couldn't guarantee that he was safe off-lead with her).
In a world where labradors exist, if you choose an XL bully as a family pet it’s because you’re too scared to leave your house without a weapon. Simply no other reason for them to exist.
I would absolutely agree that the dangerous dogs act is a crock, but anyone spouting “it’s the dog not the owner” has absolutely let go of reality. All dogs are not the same. We’ve been selectively breeding them for millennia specifically for them NOT to be the same.
Main reasons ? I suspect it's
- drug dealer
- stolen property trader
- prostitute pimp
- gun seller
- dickhead.
Each of those are not mutually exclusive.
It's an aesthetic thing. Same with Orange FS bikes - some people think they look good.
Nowt as strange as folk.
Main reasons ? I suspect it's
- drug dealer
- stolen property trader
- prostitute pimp
- gun seller
- dickhead.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the list, you did miss off the people who re-home rescued ones.
take a look at the top ten breeds that bite.
And then take a look at the dogs that kill people, tend not to be poorly socialised/trained Daschunds and he like. I'd take on a Daschund in a fight, not so keen on my odds with a Pit Bull or a XL Bully. Quite happy to see them band. The difficulty comes in around proving what breed a dog is when breeds are very loosely described in most of this types, hence you hear the word type used. Same with our old lurcher, she wasn't a breed a lurcher is a type.
If you look on the pages of any dog charity offering dogs for rehoming, nine of ten of them will be these sorts of dogs.
My neighbours rescued a dog that could be classed as an XL Bully. I've been around dogs my entire life and she is the most sweet natured and gentle dog I've ever had the pleasure to meet. Great with my kids too. Patient, calm and well behaved. Before anyone says it , I would never leave any dog alone with children.
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly. Like with any intelligent creatures, some can be absolute dicks or just plain dangerous. Chewie, my dog, is a miniature poodle and a right dickhead. Of all the dogs I've ever had, including a deaf boxer, he's the most difficult. Not remotely dangerous but has a lot of issues.
That looks horrible, sandwich.
I generalise about Staffies temperament, of course there will always be exceptions.
My wife parents used to have a Labrador that had to be kept away from visitors, the postman, all other dogs. He was terribly trained.
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly
Very much this.
Yeah file me under don't get the aggressive extension breed of human anger.
Don't need 'em. Some choices in life have too many downsides.
May as well go the whole hog and get a Mountain lion. My 200lb cat will beat your XL mate.
Temperament is broadly irrelevent (every dog is sweet until it's not) it's about how much damage they can do.
Society just doesn't lose out overall by having a few less aggressive big dogs.
I tend to think that dogs, like people, aren't born bad, they're made that way.
People who buy XL Bully type dogs know exactly what their reputation is and are buying them for that reason, even if they say otherwise. Presumably a significant proportion of those people then encourage those traits. I think that dogs often reflect their owners personalities - easy going relaxed owner = easy going relaxed dog. Defensive, jittery or aggressive owner = dog that's no good in public.
Since the introduction of the dangerous dogs act in 1991, there hasn't been a correspondingly significant change in the number of dog attacks.
It's almost like government wants to be seen to do something but doesn't know what to do or doesn't have the will to do what needs to be done.
The fact that whether an animal is in the banned list or not seems to be subjective rather than repeatably proven by scientific means suggests the system is flawed
You can either have system where everything is illegal un less you have a law specifically allowing it, or everything is legal unless you have a law specifically banning it. In the UK we have the latter and for certain situations it makes prohibitions easy to circumvent.
Take our drugs laws for instance - we have laws banning specific recreational drugs and a market for 'legal highs'. These aren't drugs that our legal system has sanctioned as legal, they are just a novel variant of a drug different enough from existing banned drugs not to come under the terms of legislation, yet. Laws can be updated to bring those new drugs within their scope, but just as quickly you can come up with another concoction thats different enough the be 'legal' for the time being.
And it's the same problem with 'dangerous breeds'. Theres no end to the ways in which you can selectively create new breeds of dog. The XL Bully breed didn't exist when the Dangerous Dog act was created so it was a bread that couldn't be specified in the legislation. The first XLs didn't arrive in the UK until 10 years ago and obviously it takes time for them to be bred from for there to be any significant number of them. Theres now more than 50,000 that have been registered in the UK.
he's bloody strong (I've walked him several times and its exhausting)
Why? Are you physically restraining the dog all the time? Does it not come to heel and stay there?
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly
True but I reckon if a chihuahua wanted to kill me I'd win that fight, I'd back myself against a lab or a collie or my old lurcher if she had gone mad. But a dog with Jaws that would fit me head in....well no thanks. They'll always be badly socialised and trained dogs, I would rather they weren't XL bullies or pit bulls, they serve no purpose over a different t type.
But they exist. What do you suggest, that we put them all down? As per my previous post, my neighbours rescued one, she is a beautiful animal, well socialised and well behaved. Also, my head would not fit in her jaws.
This comes in cycles. Alsatians then Dobermans, Rottweilers, Staffies, Pit Bulls etc.One common denominator and that's humans. Pricks gonna find ways to be pricks. I think licensing for dogs should be brought back in. Along with mandatory training and socialising of dogs. Very few dogs serve a purpose other than companionship nowadays.
I'm not trying to argue here and I agree that some breeds can be intimidating. What are the actual chances of being attacked by one though? Compared to being hit by a car, killed by a cow etc.
What do you suggest, that we put them all down?
We stop anymore being produced by neutering those alive, putting down dangerous ones, muzzling the licensed ones in public and make future ownership illegal. Anyone found breeding them face prosecution and dogs pts. Job jobed
It's like gun's, or mountainbikes.
In 99% of cases they're great and no danger to anyone. Give them to a complete bellend who'll point it in the wrong direction and they'll kill someone.
There was an American Bulldog on The Dog House (Series 3?) called buddy, he was genuinely one of the softest dogs I've ever met. To use the gun analogy he was a Bazooka, and as a result had grown up probably being treated as such (i.e. with a bit of respect) so he loved everyone. Compare that to 99% of Spitz/Chiwawa/dashund/cavapoo/terrier/fury-rats-with-asshole-personalities that got happily re-homed with families despite being utter dicks because people assume small = safe and pick them up or play with them when they clearly wanted to be left, or just generally leave any aggression unchecked because it's easier to just drag them away on a lead. They have all the danger of a kids air rifle but people just keep pointing them at their faces.
The problem is people with dick personalities are drawn to guns and big dogs. And because we don't live in the Minority Report where we can ban dicks, the only thing we can do is ban guns and big dogs.#
Buddy, doing his best attempt at a "I will eat your face if you don't give me that snack in your pocket" look.
n.b. he still had some growing to do and was already an absolute unit, that photo doesn't do him justice.
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly
True but I reckon if a chihuahua wanted to kill me I'd win that fight, I'd back myself against a lab or a collie or my old lurcher if she had gone mad. But a dog with Jaws that would fit me head in....well no thanks. They'll always be badly socialised and trained dogs, I would rather they weren't XL bullies or pit bulls, they serve no purpose over a different t type.
My thoughts exactly!
Also, Staffies can be soppy things but anyone who has seen up close the damage their jaws can do to another dog might feel slightly differently.
. The trouble is like with so many other things you're seeing the representation from the media and all the bad stories, not all the good stuff.
"Well sure, if you only look at the toddlers they mauled then of course they're going to look bad"
It's an aesthetic thing. Same with Orange FS bikes - some people think they look good.
Nowt as strange as folk.
This is next level... comparing people who get Bully XLs to people who buy an Orange. What type of dog would a Santa Cruz owner buy? A Starling owner? What about a Trek owner?
Clue's in the name, who thinks "I'll get an extra large bully, sounds perfect for little Timmy"?
Have to admit that I always thought Staffies were intimidating looking dogs but have now had dealings with quite a few recently and they are just daft and soppy.
The Girl has a Staffie. It's soft as muck, his biggest threat to a human is that he has a head like a cannonball perfectly positioned at the same height from the floor as my bollocks. Ask me how I know.
We stop anymore being produced by neutering those alive, putting down dangerous ones, muzzling the licensed ones in public and make future ownership illegal. Anyone found breeding them face prosecution and dogs pts. Job jobed
People will just breed something else though. Breeds exist for guarding stuff. From facilities to livestock. Some of them are way bigger than an XL Bully. What do we do about those? Ensure they are only being used for the job they were bred for. Like we do with 4x4 cars for example.
How do you ensure all existing dogs of 'insert breed X here's are neutered? Who enforces the muzzled in public bit?
Job not so jobbed I fear.
Clue's in the name, who thinks "I'll get an extra large bully, sounds perfect for little Timmy"?
Have you met more than three people? There are a lot of very daft folk out there. No dog, no matter how well behaved, should be left alone with children. Dogs can be dicks and so can kids.
People will just breed something else
Ban them then.
Some of them are way bigger than an XL Bully
When they regularly appear in the news killing people, they took can be banned.
How do you ensure all existing dogs of 'insert breed X here's are neutered?
Same way we already do with banned breeds.
Who enforces the muzzled in public bit?
The police, same as other laws really.
Cannot see what the issues are
Also, Staffies can be soppy things but anyone who has seen up close the damage their jaws can do to another dog might feel slightly differently.
As a point of note;
The bite force of a labrador and a staffie are about the same.
Just putting that out there.
Staffies jaws are much bigger though!
Dogs don’t kill people, rappers do
ask any politician and they’ll tell you it’s true
Also, Staffies can be soppy things but anyone who has seen up close the damage their jaws can do to another dog might feel slightly differently.
As a point of note;
The bite force of a labrador and a staffie are about the same.
Just putting that out there.
Quite surprising! My aunt had a staffie whose body seemed to be about 90% neck. You'd think it would be way higher.
I suppose it's not just the bite force but the overall strength, I mean this little bugger was absolutely solid. If you've ever held a big bit of lead, it had the same kind of disconnect between size and weight as that!
Neck strength would come in after the bite, when it starts twisting.