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Toxic macho dick waving is, I believe the only rationale for owning a shark on legs. There can be no other justification.
agree, saw a very inadequete steroid user I know from the gym being dragged along by a huge dog the other day.
@mrmonkfinger He still has a smiley face mark on that leg. He's now sensitive to dogs that have restricted breathing due to the snub nose. They whistle at a pitch I can't hear but he has to go on lead if we don't have Ball to destract him. I also need to be aware if anyone I'm talking to has a tracheotomy as they whistle when they speak and he gets a bit tense and growly. Thank goodness that Ball is Life and if that is present no problems at all with other dogs.
And then take a look at the dogs that kill people
Followed by "dog breeds most likely to attack people"
Following the post you quoted I did some googling fully expecting to get Border Collies and Labs etc, but got Staffies etc. I feel like there's some selective stats use at time for dog bites.
The dog breed you are most likely to get bitten by is not necessarily the dog breed most likely to bite.
And as I pointed out the dogs most likely to be bitten by are not the ones likely to be able to kill adults.
Long read here. In summary UK XL Bullys are largely inbred and from a small number of original dogs many of which had known aggressive tendencies.
As per my previous post, my neighbours rescued one, she is a beautiful animal, well socialised and well behaved. Also, my head would not fit in her jaws.
Enough about the neighbour tell us about the dog 🙂
Right, head above parapet slightly here as it's a very contentious issue. I'm currently involved in an academic paper reviewing the ban. I'd take that article above about 'Killer Kimbo' with the largest pinch of salt you can!
Rest of the thread seems to have covered the main issues though! Dangerous Dog Act was never adequate, XL Bullys don't seem to bite more than other breeds (there's no credible evidence at all that they do), XL Bullys can actually be a wide variety of cross breeds. The main problem of course is that they cause a hell of a lot more damage when they do bite. Cane Corso's are the next problem....and the actual problem is we need to legislate for better ownership and breeding practices rather than just banning breeds when they start hitting the headlines.
I suppose it's not just the bite force but the overall strength
and
Followed by "dog breeds most likely to attack people"
(and others)
Risk Management 101 is "likelihood x severity." How likely is it that something will go wrong, and how bad will it be if it does.
Handbag dogs score highly in the first category (because they're almost all bad-tempered little shits) but not the second. Something like a Labrador as mentioned above would be the other way around. The problem with the XLBs (as I understand it) is that they are often being bred and raised specifically to meet both criteria.
problem....and the actual problem is we need to legislate for better ownership and breeding practices rather than just banning breeds when they start hitting the headlines.
You can do that but it won't work. The idiots are drawn to these types of dog and that sort of legislation is reactive, it should be in place but it comes after an attack. I love dogs and they bring so much joy but, maybe I am a bit hard nosed about it but I comfortable with banning and PTS any dog that is, by design nothing more than a badly trained weapon. There's no need for them.
Practically all of the peer reviewed evidence disagrees with you. We banned XL Bullys and it hasn't really worked thus far has it. Legislating for better dog ownership isn't reactive, a whole review and updating of the dangerous dog act had been ongoing since at least 2018. The XL Bully ban and the way in which it was brought in somewhat torpedoed that process.
It's far from an easy answer to actually adequately deal with 'dangerous dogs'.
My view of this type of dog has changed since I saw up close a dog attack a young 8yr old girl close to a local shopping centre. It wasn’t a Bully. It looked like some kind of Samoyed or white Akita. I happened to be around 20m away when it happened, and looking in that direction. Up until that time, I’d probably thought that any dog could be kicked/wrestled to the ground without major damage. And I always had a bit of a macho “I could take on any dog” type of stupid attitude.
That day changed me. Without any warning or provocation the dog when straight for the girls neck. I’m absolutely 100% certain that if the girl hadn’t been wearing a puffa jacked zipped right up, the attack would certainly have been fatal. The girls grandad jumped on the dog amazingly quickly, and managed to drag it off. That dog was constantly growling and trying to get back at the girl - who had been obliviously, peacefully walking past. The guy had to hold onto the dog for about 30 minutes until the cops and dog warden turned up. It took an unbelievable, immense effort for that guy to hold onto that dog. I tried to help where possible.
I don’t care what anyone says (I’ve never ever not owned a dog at any time in my life, and consider myself a total dog lover to this day) - that dog was dead set on killing that girl. It was a miracle that she escaped harm.
so I don’t have any patience at all with people who say that XL Bully’s bite less often, or are equally dangerous to Chihuahuas. Once I saw a powerful dog attacking, my eyes were opened. There is all the difference in the world between a tiny dog biting someone and a powerful dog like this going on the attack. I’m 100% in favour of doing everything possible to try to reduce the number of this type of dog in the UK.
Practically all of the peer reviewed evidence disagrees with you.
Well that's me told, should I do my own research?
Considering all the owners of killer dogs get prosecuted and found guilty I guess the legislation exists but is not working
I won't go into it, but I had to pin down a friends terrier that attacked another friends cat inside the house (friends house). Four dogs inside, the terrier had been eyeing up the cat for ages. I only got the dog off by sticking both thumbs into it's throat (under side) and then dragging it out and physically sitting on it. Fortunately it was only after the cat, it could well have had me. I had to sit on it for about 20 minutes - it never calmed down. Cat hat to be put down.
The problem was the owner - should never have taken it to the house. She warned me about a rescue they had - that was fine, but the terrier, pure killer. The other friend had two cockers that lived with the cat.
You are ****ed with a big dog.
Well I'm telling you what the broad consensus amongst experts is a_a and as you say, yes the legislation does exist and is ineffective. You can of course 'do your own research' and we both know that you have a background in research. I'm just telling you what my findings from own ongoing research are.
Well I'm telling you what the broad consensus amongst experts is a_a and as you say, yes the legislation does exist and is ineffective. You can of course 'do your own research'
😄😄😄😄😄😄
@fossy The safer end can also be used to release a gripping dog a knob or balls grab or the nuclear option of a finger up the bum. I have used the knob grab in anger, not had to go all-in on an anus yet!!
It's an aesthetic thing. Same with Orange FS bikes - some people think they look good.
Nowt as strange as folk.
Hey, I think the welds are beautiful 🙂 there's nothing wrong with my stage Evo !
I agree with the sentiments in the thread though - bully type dogs are a problem. With most other dog breeds, the owner can physically control the dog. With a bully type dog, I don't care who you are. If that dog decides to do something there's very little you can do about it.
I go running a lot and although it is the small dogs which are more likely to bite (or at least to fling themselves against the end of the lead trying to bite) our experience with the bigger dogs is:
Retriever type dogs - want to sniff, want to see if you've got any food, want to see if you'll throw their ball....
German shepherds - want to join the run*
Stuffies etc - seem to ignore runners
Bully type dogs - something of a rarity around here, although I do see one owner late at night walking their dog with a muzzle on. The dog is absolutely humongous. Thankfully as soon as I see it or they see me we both go in different directions.
Q
* - We had a hilarious thing happen last year where this German shepherd joined our run. After about 30 minutes, someone enquired as to who owned the dog that was now running alongside with us. We decided to turn back and eventually found a very harassed owner. We asked him if they wanted to lend us the dog for a while 🙂
One thing I should probably add though, there's only been two times when I've actually been chased by dogs and both were as a kid. Both times involved packs of German shepherds.
The last time I was about 18 (so not really a kid anymore) and I ended up with my back against a tree with my mountain bike in front of me using my front wheel to try and defend myself against five or six German shepherds.... For some weird reason the owner was more angry with me - I still haven't worked out why they thought walking five or six German shepherds off of the lead when they were quite obviously acting as a hunting pack was a good idea. It was in the hills at the back of Brighton if anyone's interested.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15qp4pn1qvo
Bigger problem in some cities?
In 2023, 19 people were killed in the UK in attacks by dogs found or suspected to be XL bullies.
That is horrendous. I can't begin to imagine the agony/fear those people went through before they were killed.
How many more survived after a dog tried to maul/eat/kill them. Horrific.
Bullies are lovely and intelligent dogs, the world's greatest enthusiasts. The last thing they need is to be owned by an arsehole.
It's definitely not the breed that is the problem with them, it's the owner.
One proviso though, they react quickly to perceived aggression from other dogs, and if there's any of it around, it's the Bullie that finishes it.
I regard them as the canine equivalent of a friendly mini T-Rex.
If you want to own one, learn dog body language, treat it and train it well. and you'll have the best friend ever.
The most important command to teach any dog is 'stop' and they should be trained to obey that regardless.
(I've never owned a Bully, but have known several well. My dogs have always been big hounds, Danes, Wolfhounds)
There is absolutely no reason for some of these breeds to exist. I'd ban all 'Bully' XL types and in fact all dogs capable of killing a human except for Police use. There are enough smaller, safer breeds around for dog lovers to 'enjoy'.
Practically all of the peer reviewed evidence disagrees with you. We banned XL Bullys and it hasn't really worked thus far has it
We havent really have we? All the existing ones can still be kept with restrictions about being licenced and muzzled outside etc. If they had been completely banned eg all put down I suspect the results would be more obvious.
However even the limited ban and restrictions do seem to be having some positive effect. Most of the recent attacks have been in private homes.
"However even the limited ban and restrictions do seem to be having some positive effect. Most of the recent attacks have been in private homes. "
True. While any death is a tragedy I'd rather it was someone who chose to risk being with an XL Bully than someone who had the risk forced on them.
Well yeah the ban as is, was never going to deal with the one's granted a license. So if you want rid of them all, then you're relying on either owners handing them in to be put down, or police forcibly taking them to have them put down. That's also assuming that you can find enough vets willing to put them down, which many would refuse to do.
The stat of 19 people killed by XL Bullys in 2023 is also misleading. There's no official XL Bully breed, so you have to go off 'breed type' to make a judgement. A number of those deaths in 2023 were subsequently shown not to be by 'XL Bully' types.
Which brings me back to my original points up thread. These attacks are horrific, but a simple 'ban the breed' approach was never going to work. The people actively wanting a dangerous dog will find something else, such as the Cane Corso. We need far better breeding and ownership legislation in the UK.
Blame Maggie 🤔
No point banning shoplifting. Those wanting to steal will find a way round it or steal something else.
Ironically one of the campaigners behind the XL Bully ban is now heading up a campaign that calls for tougher sentences for people caught shoplifting. Dominic Cummings is supporting it too, which should tell you all that you need to know about how well thought through it is.
Former dog trainer at Battersea Dogs & Cats here.
1st off: if you think the dog is the problem you’re looking at the wrong end of the lead.
2nd: of the dogs I worked with Staffies were the best & most predictable. Utter buffoons most of the time. The worst were little shouty, bitey types. On the few occasions I had issues with dogs none were bull types. NONE. When you consider that over 30% of the dogs there were Staffies that should help demonstrate the reality of them as dogs.
3rd: DDA? It’s rubbish & not fit for purpose.
How do we get round it? Re-wire society? There’s a massive disconnect between one another these days. Entitlement & privilege is rife from the top to the bottom. A complete lack of awareness that your beloved fur baby might be someone else’s worst nightmare. I’ve had 9 dogs. I love them, but I hate nothing more than entitled asshole dog owners who don’t GAF. That includes your pedigree pooches to your back alley mongrels. Everybody is capable of being a fing dick.
If the dog type doesn't matter it's funny how most killings by dogs are by XL Bullys or other powerful types. How many people have been killed by a poodle?
Dog trainer? This dog trainer was killed by an "large bulldog type dog".
"“Adam would have been against any government ban.“He would have taken the view that it is the owners and breeders not the dogs who are the problem."
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/friend-scot-killed-xl-bully-30958403
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-59781502
Point of order I wouldn't want to fight a standard poodle, big strong animals!!
🤣 🤣 some folk have strange hobbies Cougar. Anybody that thinks a standard Poodle can't be dangerous has never spent much time with one. Big strong buggers. The opposite of the thing watching me type this (miniature Poodle).
It is a tricky situation and I have no idea what the solution is. As per my previous posts it was Rottweilers, Alsatians and Dobermans that were owned by WGBE's when I was younger. Dogs and people can be dangerous. The bigger they are, the more dangerous they can be.
Entitlement & privilege is rife from the top to the bottom
Yup 😕
Too many stupid idiots in this country. Imagine if we had easy access to guns. There'd be daily shootings over parking spaces, garden boundaries and all sorts of trivialities, it'd be carnage!
I'm not usually one for blanket bans, but it seems the right answer, given the levels of entitlement and stupidity.
"Anybody that thinks a standard Poodle can't be dangerous has never spent much time with one. "
I have two of them. I say again, show me the headline of a person killed by a poodle. Any dog can bite. XL Bullys can kill.
Checks list. Nope. Loads of XL Bullys. No poodles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom
There is absolutely no reason for some of these breeds to exist. I'd ban all 'Bully' XL types and in fact all dogs capable of killing a human except for Police use. There are enough smaller, safer breeds around for dog lovers to 'enjoy'.
Exactly my feelings.
Trouble is with the owners thing - how do you profile someone to find out if they're a **** or not? I mean, I could do it simply be the power of stereotyping but I'm not sure the authorities would allow it. So how do you do it? Criminal convictions for violent/drug related crime?
Someone above mentioned witnessing an attack by an akita... A long time ago a mate rehomed an akita from the RSPCA (no idea why). Couple of weeks later out of nowhere, it turned and bit him on the arm which required a hospital visit so back to the RSPCA it went. Few weeks after that he was at a bus stop and got chatting to a fella with a bandage on his arm who'd been bitten by an akita he'd rehomed (and subsequently taken back!) from the RSPCA a few days before...
Some rough and ready numbers. UK XL Bully population 55'000. UK dog population 13 million.
Annual UK dog attack deaths - average is roughly 10 a year for years 2022-2024. Of those 10 deaths 4 were XL Bullys.
So an XL Bully has a 1:14000 chance of killing someone every year. The average risk of any other breed is around 1 in 2 million. Bear that in mind when anyone claims it's the owner not the breed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2024/02/27/xl-bully-registrations/
No point banning shoplifting. Those wanting to steal will find a way round it or steal something else.
It’s already illegal, because it’s plain theft; however, as far as staff are concerned, general instructions are to just let them get away with it, to avoid confrontation turning nasty, especially when most staff are female.
Also, if it’s kids, they may have been shoplifting kitchen knives…