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Having recently putting an offer on an old renovation project we plumped for a Building Survey (AKA full structural survey). The report didn't mention anything too worrying, certainly nothing that would make us think twice about buying or re negotiating our offer.
We completed last week and we quickly went in to start work on getting a fireplace renovated to get some heat into the place. Upon exposing the fireplace I quickly noticed that the lovely old lintel I was expecting to find was non-existent and that the entire chimney stack plus the side of the house was being supported by a thin (2in) metal bar and a rotten old brick!!
We immediately stopped work and trussed up the floor with a scaffolding plank and some 2/4 and called in a structural engineer to assess the problem.
They were mildly surprised the Surveyor didn't even mention the possibility of this problem occurring(the SE highlighted that this problem is a lot more common than expected) in a property of its age (c1890's)
We've reviewed the survey report and there is no mention of this problem being a concern and in mentioning the chimneys in the report they only suggest we have it inspected for dampness!
Not massively impressed as it's gonna cost £2k+ VAT to repair to an adequate standard and the Ins won't cover it as they class it as 'wear and tear'! Our only avenue now is to pursue the Surveyor and we have our solicitor on the case.
What was I paying Mr Surveyor MRICS MSc. to do if he couldn't pick out a potential problem like this?!
Anyone else had a similar issue?
What was I paying Mr Surveyor MRICS MSc. to do if he couldn't pick out a potential problem like this?!
It's a good question and the reason I wouldn't ever bother with a structural survey unless I really knew the surveyor very well and knew they'd do a much better than average job.
They'll no doubt claim not to have had access/etc and it therefore falls outside the caveats listed in the report.
I had a standard survey done (had to for the mortgage) on a place and they missed a broken lintel, bowing back wall, bowing ceilings, damp coming through from one side (different ground level) and so on - all of which I and the builder we had round had seen as they were pretty noticeable!
1st thing to do is get everything in writing.
Contact your surveyor in writing and tell them what has happened inform them of the issue and ask them what they'd like to do about it.
Also ask that they put their PI insurer on notice. If they seemed to be reasonable people it may well be worthwhile telephoning them too but always write to them.
As le club says, there will be something in their T&Cs to get them out of it. Unlucky though. Should you not have asked a structural engineer to have a look first? (sorry, that's not very helpful I know)
[i]entire chimney stack plus the side of the house was being supported by a thin (2in) metal bar and a rotten old brick!![/i]
our victorian house had a piece of 4x2 performing much the same function.
If it was covered up with plaster etc they'll just say 'how could we have known?'.
They can't put every construction technique used in the past in their report - if it looked 'ok' (ie. no external signs of a problem) then, tbh, it woudl probably have lasted another 50 years inany event.
it's only when people start hacking about with stuff that the problems start.
The surveyor may not have messed up, unless he missed signs of cracking or movement becauase the lintel wasn't up to the job. If there wasn't any cracking or movement, then it's probably been OK for 100 years, so it was good enough.
Unfortunately now you've messed with it, it becomes part of the cost of the job you're doing.
Just my 2p worth - not qualified but have renovated an old house that has had many similar issues. Acro props are your friend!
the chimney opening in my house wasn't supported by anything either - 1920s house. It had the original fireplace in, so I figured it was probably ok (has been for 90 years).
If there's no way they could have seen it (sounds like there wasn't) I can't see how you have a recourse against them
2k sounds like a hell of a lot of money to drop a lintle in, especially if its not including decorating costs. I had a small external one done, including 'making good' for £300
a mate of mine had a problem with a rotten roof joist the surveyor missed. he took it to their central governing body, who decided that as my mate had paid more than the surveyors value for the house, any problems weren't covered !! quite how that makes sense i've no idea
Happened with me too. Full survey done and the survey mentioned a few cracks in plaster that were caused by differential drying.
then we found cracks in the brick underneath (caused by a broken drain). Insurance chap said that plaster just doesn't dry that way and it was plain wrong.
But the Ts&Cs state stuff like "we will write this up from la-la land and you pay us dosh but if we're found out then tough!".
It tends to have to be visible - I know a house survey reports on the roof having done no more than looking at the roof through binoculars at best.
The wife n me put in an offer on a house last year subject to survey.
trailertrash off here did us a survey...
we couldn't have run away fast enough from it afterwards. Seriously bad state. Worth getting someone you can trust to do a proper job of a survey with the right kit and a methodical approach.
Hope you get somewhere- it is a unique type of stress you can do without eh
I'd be might peeved if a surveyor came in to my house and started knocking wholes above the chimney breast just to see how it was supported.
Or do qualified surveyors have x-ray vision and can see behind chimney breasts?
They can't put every construction technique used in the past in their report - if it looked 'ok' (ie. no external signs of a problem) then, tbh, it woudl probably have lasted another 50 years inany event.
quite possibly, but the fact is that according to the SE, on a property of this style, this could have be an issue even if there are no external signs and the Surveyor should have at the very least mentioned that we might encounter it but he didn't. now we've exchanged we cannot go back to the vendor nor can we claim on the ins. if he'd highlighted it we'd have had a builder in immediately to assess it.
Just to add, according the SE, it's only a matter of luck that the chimney hasn't collapsed years ago as the full lintel looks to have been non-existent for a number of years!
2k sounds like a hell of a lot of money to drop a lintle in, especially if its not including decorating costs. I had a small external one done, including 'making good' for £300
it's not just a matter of dropping a lintel in. all the bricks surrounding the fireplace are rotten from damp etc so there are no real foundations for the linten to rest on. The spec for the repairs include rebuilding the foundations of the fireplace and making it all ready for reciveing plaster. it actually looks like as soon as they remove the only bricks holding it up it will just go! quite scary really.
I'm more concerned that the builder (also a civil engineering contractor) mentioned that any surveyor worth his salt should have known this to be a real possibility.
I have taken solace in the fact that he said it wasn't the worse he'd seen and that I was diligent enough to stop working on it when I did as some people just think that a stone build house can't fall down!
How bigs the fire place opening?? How far does each cheek project into the room? If the answer to the first is "not big" and the answer to the second at least "450" than I'd be inclined to not be all the worried!! Yes it needs doing but it ain't gonna collapse!
Don't think you can blame the surveyor on this one. I think it'd be a bit more than harsh if there was no clues showing on outside or through plaster/decorations. Stuff gets done to old houses through the years, and you will find more as you do more jobs. If it was a possibility, but no evidence, then they'd have to write that in for every wall with a chimney, door or window opening or archway. It's not practical to pull plaster off to investigate every one. Goes with the territory of secondhand houses. My dad's stair newel post appears to have been sat on a 1930s truck or bus wheel up until last year, just the wheel, then the dirt.
I'd be might peeved if a surveyor came in to my house and started knocking wholes above the chimney breast just to see how it was supported.
I had to knock holes in the last house I sold because the buyers' surveyor was too fat to get into the loft, and the buyers' mortgage lenders wouldn't budge without his full survey. Even after I'd done that he refused to do the job properly, and we had to ring round a load of other surveyors asking them how fat they were. We ended up paying for our own damp survey of the roof space, basically just to make the point that it was possible to get up there. Ooh I can feel my blood pressure going up just thinking about it...
How bigs the fire place opening?? How far does each cheek project into the room? If the answer to the first is "not big" and the answer to the second at least "450" than I'd be inclined to not be all the worried!! Yes it needs doing but it ain't gonna collapse!
you didn't see the look on the SE's face when he saw it! the opening of the fireplace is over 1m and isn't protruding into the room as it's build into the structure of the external wall.
I'm more concerned that the builder (also a civil engineering contractor) mentioned that any surveyor worth his salt should have known this to be a real possibility.
Sticking the knife in perhaps? As has already been said, a survey can't show 'everything' and sometimes it's just bad luck that you can't see something hidden (such as a complete electrical mess that would require a complete strip and re-wire).
I wish you luck with your claim but I'd be surprised if anything came of it. It's an old house that sounds like it hasn't been renovated .... there's bound to be something wrong hidden away.
Don't think you can blame the surveyor on this one. I think it'd be a bit more than harsh if there was no clues showing on outside or through plaster/decorations. Stuff gets done to old houses through the years, and you will find more as you do more jobs. If it was a possibility, but no evidence, then they'd have to write that in for every wall with a chimney, door or window opening or archway.
I guess that's what I was expecting from the survey. the house is old and I know that things can become apparent regardless of what reports you have done but if I am paying for someone to preform what is, for all intents and purposes, a structural survey, it isn't good enough that just because the plaster is intact and there is no outward signs of problems within that they assume it's ok.
if I am paying for someone to preform what is, for all intents and purposes, a structural survey, it isn't good enough that just because the plaster is intact and there is no outward signs of problems within that they assume it's ok.
So how are they supposed to know if there's no visible signs? It is was unstable there would have been cracking, IF there were no visible signs then maybe it was actually solid, but just not what would be considered 'good' building practice now.
I used to be in the property game (Ohhh yes, perfectly situated, schools nearby are excellent, quiet street, off road parking, whats that? vendor looking for offers? Oh yes*)
AnyWhoo's... My shortmate bought a 1970's 5 Bed near a pond, just below the flood line, over hanging Oak Trees, small lane access.. you know the sort of thing.. Asked my opinion, duely gave it, "get a survey shortmate" was the only response.. He didn't, got a driveby mortgage offer only...
FFWD 2 years on, front of house is about to fall off.
"Ohhh sh*te" said shortmate, "I'm looking for someone to blame for my mistake, you said....."
End of shortmate and mines freindship.
*said with gritted teeth
Sounds to me like your structural engineer is finding it easy to diagnose the problem as he has full access to inspect the structure. It's easy to comment on other people's work after the defect is uncovered! I'm surprised that he doesn't extent a little professional courtesy to the surveyor.
2k to install a fireplace lintel ???
1 day job with an RSJ, some acrow's and strongboys.
£300 top side.
When you isnstructed the original structural survey, did you mention what your plans were regarding proposed works ? If yes, i would expect comments in his report to cover the sort of problem you have come accross. If not, you cant expect an 'as is' report to highlight every problem you might come accross for every combination / permetation (sp?) of renovation works you may undertake.
For what its worth, its not unusual for lintels to be omitted in older properties and i would have expected any decent builder who was opening up a fireplace to have anticipated the problem. You say that the bricks are damp - to me that sounds a bigger problem and perhaps the avenue you want to pursue with whoever didi your damp survey.
So you want all surveys to say....
"Room A, has fireplace so potential for house to fall down if no lintel. May burn down as might have electrical issues in wires I can't see. Might have asbestos in there."
"Room B, has door, window and fireplace so potential if no lintels for the house to fall down. May burn down...."
and repeat for every room.
No houses would ever get sold!
I bet the report contains several "It appears that...." which is probably their get out of jail card, though I do have sympathy for your predicament.
See what they say. always worth pointing out the issues to them.
2k to install a fireplace lintel ???1 day job with an RSJ, some acrow's and strongboys.
£300 top side.
read:
it's not just a matter of dropping a lintel in. all the bricks surrounding the fireplace are rotten from damp etc so there are no real foundations for the linten to rest on. The spec for the repairs include rebuilding the foundations of the fireplace and making it all ready for reciveing plaster.
I guess we are clutching at straws with pursuing this avenue and I agree that it's impossible to tell what's going on behind plaster without inspecting it. my main beef with the survey we had done was the fact that there was no destructive testing done nor was it requested by the surveyor (had they wanted to, permission would have been granted) but we assumed that they would at the very least, lift up the carpets if not make a few small holes in the plaster.
[i]we assumed that they would at the very least, lift up the carpets if not make a few small holes in the plaster[/i]
Normally the document you sign before they attend will indicate what they do (or don't do) - I suspect makign holes and liftign carpets was specifically excluded. 'Destructive testing' sounds like it would have bought the whole lot down and I can't imagine anyone sellign a property to allow that.
but we assumed
I'm afraid you assumed wrong - IME your surveyor's behaviour was pretty normal. Not very good I'll agree but still what actually happens. In fact, IIRC there are usually caveats that state that they won't/don't do destructive testing or anything that requires moving of any (big) furniture...
I'm afraid you assumed wrong - IME your surveyor's behaviour was pretty normal. Not very good I'll agree but still what actually happens. In fact, IIRC there are usually caveats that state that they won't/don't do destructive testing or anything that requires moving of any (big) furniture...
quite. that sort of testing would only be done if it was specifically requested, as a specific survey (for instance, we got someone out specifically to find out if a material was asbesdos).
this is what the surveys cover
http://www.rics.org/site/download_feed.aspx?fileID=6087&fileExtension=PDF
What was your surveyor's reaction when you advised him of the situation?
If you buy old houses you need to expect and budget for problems like this. Nothing is straightforward in an old house!
"Room A, has fireplace so potential for house to fall down if no lintel. May burn down as might have electrical issues in wires I can't see. Might have asbestos in there.
This was pretty much how our survey was worded 🙂
Re the damp bricks..... if the fireplace has been sealed up then there's a very good chance there wasn't enough ventilation to get rid of the damp that would have occurred with rain coming down the chimney.
I've only scan-read this thread but if the full survey was supposed to be structural, why was it done by
rather than a structural engineer?Mr Surveyor MRICS MSc.
Equally, without seeing a photo it's very hard to judge, but lintels over small openings are very rare on pre war buildings. Arching action (not nec in the shape of an arch) was used and the steel strap is very common on flat arches. Which leads me to copy this from waswas:
They can't put every construction technique used in the past in their report - if it looked 'ok' (ie. no external signs of a problem) then, tbh, it woudl probably have lasted another 50 years inany event.it's only when people start hacking about with stuff that the problems start.
This thread is hilarious
This thread is hilarious
- Mr TheFunkyMonkey MRICS MSc?