[Closed] Building rest into your training?

I've been doing the Maffetone method since Xmas. Involves no HR work over 180-AGE, meaning I've got to stay below 150. I'm mainly a runner, at first I could just about jog (10min/mile) without going over, I'm down to 8min/mile now at the same HR. I've never improved so much after years of trying sprint intervals and tempo work

Cool! Glad to hear it works!
I tried it but lacked the will-power. They'd be a hill, or someone would run past that I'd have to catch up, or they'll be a women walking in the opposite direction that I'd have to demonstrate my awesomeness to, or 101 other excuses 🙂
I think basically I didn't find it enjoyable, but can live happily with the consequences of that 🙂

[i]Solo: I'm currently mid way through Krabbe's "The Rider" on an extended chain of rest days - no need for old fashioned "physical" training, this is building up the neural pathways nicely. [/i]

Yeap, I caught it on a [i]what book[/i] thread on here.
Finallly got round to buying it and reading it.

I'm forcing myself to rest as my life is far too hectic to the point that BP was dangerously high last week.

So sitting down, resting and reading is, I hope, good for me at the moment.

molgrips reading that just makes me realise how dated I am. For instance I'd never do a base training ride, to me base is everything except the racing and speed work. I.e base is like Sundays ride 100km in the snow 3 hours 30 minutes on two slices of toast and a cuppa tea, with a single bottle of SIS for the ride and be comfortable all day.

I can't train every day so rest isn't an issue, but I do account for hard days. And I also rest and eat well the same day after a hard one.

What are you and TSY training for?

The problem with power meters is a philosophical one; they only measure things. They don't change who you are or what you are capable of.

In racing terms they actually do nothing; no prizes for longest at threshold, no prizes for highest watts, you win or you don't, simple as.

There is also the idea that concentrating on the numbers means you neglect the basic skills associated with racing, the positioning, the shall-I-follow-this-move, the mind games, the ability to screw people over, the knowledge and bollocks required to sprint...

There is so much more to racing than the numbers you produce...

"There is so much more to [s]racing[/s] [b]life[/b] than the numbers you produce..."

I've got most of my fitness through base training (well 75%HRM).

I always tell myself I'd have been even more awesome if I'd done the high intensity stuff properly too...

You're not dated oldgit, and I would put money on you out performing any number of power metered younger riders. They (PMs) don't teach you how to suffer, how to grit your teeth, how to get back on when you get dropped, how to fake doing turns, how to cope with the wet, with the cold, with the wind. It's like the rev counter in a car; you don't win, or learn, from watching the numbers change.

[i]how to cope with the wet, with the cold, with the wind. [/i]

Ah, bitter sweet memories.

Living in Norfolk, the wind gets a good long run-up at you.
Pushing against that for an hour or two and you know about that inner demon who mocks you for continuing and asks you why you don't just turn round to be blown home.
Argh !, the wind.

Oh, how I hate it when it hurts.
But how I love it when I recall.

Worst recently was the frozen forehead.
Goodness did that hurt.
Is frozen forehead the worst ?.
It felt like it at the time.
No other part of my body was complaining anywhere near as loudly.

You learn more about yourself from racing and failing miserably than from any kind of electronic equipment.

They (PMs) don't teach you how to suffer, how to grit your teeth, how to get back on when you get dropped, how to fake doing turns, how to cope with the wet, with the cold, with the wind. It's like the rev counter in a car; you don't win, or learn, from watching the numbers change.

It's not an either/or situation though. You can do both. I know great riders who don't use any kind of electronics, and I know those who do. All of them know how to suffer.

You learn more about yourself from racing and failing miserably than from any kind of electronic equipment

**** me I must be the font of all racing knowledge then.

You're right though. I did a race a few years back and I was really hurting. I wanted to jack, but I'd never do that though I was praying for my bike to break. I swore to myself that if I didn't finish this little race I'd give it all up. I didn't and had my best year in recent history after that day.

You learn more about yourself from racing and failing miserably than from any kind of electronic equipment.

both tell me i'm a bit shit, but ones a bit less public than the other.

You're right though. I did a race a few years back and I was really hurting. I wanted to jack, but I'd never do that though I was praying for my bike to break. I swore to myself that if I didn't finish this little race I'd give it all up. I didn't and had my best year in recent history after that day.

Just think how good it could have been if you had trained properly 😉

I take a day off a week sometimes more based on resting heart rate. I'm normally 47-55bpm if I'm getting into the mid 60s I'll have a rest day, I've noticed the day after a few bevvies I'll be 70-80bpm for the whole day. 😮

There is so much more to racing than the numbers you produce...

Obviously.

However, tell that to a Forumla 1 driver. He can have all the driving skill in the world but if his car's not fast enough, it's just not fast enough. You can only make up for a poor car so much.

The power meter will not teach you how to be a great racer or how to suffer*. But it can help your training rides be a bit more effective.

* actually it can help you push yourself harder in training than you otherwise would. See my comments about chasing numbers. It's just another way of measuring a personal best, that isn't affected by headwinds or hills.

You learn more about yourself from racing and failing miserably than from any kind of electronic equipment.

Again, no-one has said that the devices are a short cut or a substitute for racing and training hard.

What are you and TSY training for?

I'm training for a full season of races. In theory. However I'll be lucky to get two races in this year, what with having new kids and all. Didn't do any last year. In reality I'll be happy with a PB at Cwmcarn this year.

However I have actually been entered into the Blenhim Tri as a team, can't friggin wait 🙂 It must've been two years since I've raced and I reckon the bike leg will be a good chance to let off some steam.

What are you and TSY training for?

More training!

Some triathlons, some running, going to get a race licence and do a bit of racing... see where it takes me.

Singletrackworld race team FTW!

Actually id be up for a team mtb event this year in between all this road.racing

'm training for a full season of races. In theory. However I'll be lucky to get two races in this year, what with having new kids and all. Didn't do any last year. In reality I'll be happy with a PB at Cwmcarn this year.

Keep at it. I had a forced break when we had kids, kept racing and collapsed one day, but that's another story. I just kept my hand in with early mornings, night rides and Turbos alone with Pink Floyd. Now I'm doing it all again, albeit much slower.
But to rub salt into the wound, I'm hoping to have a full road season, a three month XC season and a full cross season as well as London-Paris-London, Flanders, Alps and other tripe.

Oldgit - thanks 🙂 I'm trying to keep it short and intense, with one longer ride a week. I haven't done any long rides in months and months though.. hopefully when things settle down with the kids I'll feel comfortable doing it.

Mrs Grips won't hold me back but I feel bad leaving them.

Molly - I'd be up for a road blast in the valleys... or indeed off-road.

Team event... SITS?

Yeti, not this weekend but maybe next, not sure.

SITS - will discuss.

Mrs Grips won't hold me back but I feel bad leaving them

Yep know how that feels.

Molgrips, when my kids were small I sacked cycling altogether. I couldn't justify the time when I had other things more important. I ran instead, to work, in the evening, in any spare time I had. The other alternative is riding in the early morning; up at 5am, hour and a half done before work.
If nothing else, it teaches you how to ride when tired!

Above all, don't give up. The best advice I ever got was from the father of a young lad we rode with; he said "If you give up now, you'll wake up at forty odd and wonder where the hell the last 20 years went."

The kind words are really making me feel good, thanks folks 🙂

Yeah not given up - runs are easy to do (hence the running progress thread earlier), and whilst working in London I was getting some reasonable strength training out of it. I agree about not giving up - never want to do that. I'd put the kids in the trailer but I reckon they'd get pretty bored after an hour or so 🙂

I don't do "training" as such I just ride between 6 and 10 miles every day with a longer ride on days off, it works for me. I hate having a day with no bike ride, just makes me feel like a lazy fatty.

I wouldn't be able to make this weekend anyhow Molly... we can try and tempt iDave out too.

Anyway... strength training...

Is there any point in squatting and leg pressing huge weights in the gym?

I was pressing 270kg last night and kind of thought, what's the point... I only way 75kg so why lift so much... does it have a practical application in cycling etc?

I'm kind of confused. Are you really 'training' if you don't have any specific goals? Aren't you just 'exercising'? Take your question about leg pressing huge weights for 'cycling'. It depends what you're doing on a bike, what you're training for - a top track sprinter is 'cycling', so is a TDF rider. Or a downhiller, heavy leg weights might be useful for some of that. It sounds like you need to decide what your specific goals actually are and train for them. Otherwise you're just exercising aimlessly. Sorry, that's all pretty obvious really and not a 'dig'.

If you're just training for the sake of training in itself, you can pretty mcuh do whatever you want. If you're training for a goal, then you need to decide what it is surely?

"does it have a practical application in cycling "

what practical application do you think it could have, if you compare the two activities?

Is the answer that it makes it easier to push a heavy bike off you if you fall over?

iDave... I have an answer already... I want to hear others thoughts...

BadlyWiredDog, I know what my goals are, I suppose I should have asked...

'Anyone know what the strength training programs for a different elite bikers/runners and swimmers are?'

'Anyone know what the strength training programs for a different elite bikers/runners and swimmers are?'

Yes, they're very complex and individualised and then again some don't do any strength training. Endurance cycling performance isn't limited by strength, or tour riders would be hench.

Damn you with your difinitive answers! 😀

Sorry TSY, I'll try to be more vague and evasive.

So, yeah, do loads of squats and stuff with different weights and all sorts of numbers of reps and that. Plus other things.

TSY, why don't we have a better challenge - you can carry on with your no rest/lots of training, i'll try rest/using energy products/hr monitoring/road racing and we'll see who gets to 25mph quicker? 🙂

My new club has a watt test per body weight test that you need to pass to make the race squad so mustard and i will be trying out for it *excited* I'm now another kilo lighter (6kgs in total now!) so that's got to help!

❓

25mph over what distance?

[i]25mph over what distance?[/i]

I'd imagine the sortest distance possible....in order to get there first.. ?.. quickest

Is there any point in squatting and leg pressing huge weights in the gym?

I dunno. However I've noticed since doing better at running (cheers iDave) that my cardivascular capacity seems to have gone through the roof; so that I never even breathe hard when cycling as fast as I can. It's just the pain in my legs that stops me. Hence the bombing around London rides.

I thought that I might need more leg strength so I tried doing squats with my 24kg kettlebell. One is easy, after ten it burns like some steep off-road climb. Watch the knees tho.

My new club has a watt test per body weight test that you need to pass to make the race squad

Ooh.. what's the pass mark?

25mph over what distance?

I thought that I might need more leg strength so I tried doing squats with my 24kg kettlebell. One is easy, after ten it burns like some steep off-road climb. Watch the knees tho.

Ooh.. what's the pass mark?

That's a really stupid test for the club to insist on. Haven't they heard of tenacity and attitude? Do people with 5w/kg win all the races and those with less never win races? Lazy coaching.

DirtyG - it's got to be a timetrial then? No drafting etc.

[i]I thought that I might need more leg strength so I tried doing squats with my 24kg kettlebell. One is easy, after ten it burns like some steep off-road climb. [/i]

Burpees = leg strength and speed and out breath.

Kev

Hmm. I can do 5w/kg for a minute no bother.

25mph for 20 miles is hard mind. I can keep up about that pace on the flat but any junctions, traffic lights or small hills blow would cause me trouble I reckon. My best commute in Germany was about 21.5mph door to door even whilst rolling along at about 25mph on the open road.

Time trail is fine TSY - I don't draft when I set out for a fast training ride anyway and drafting doesn't count. Only issue i have is up here there's always a constant headwind, no matter what way i go/turn! Would need to be mid summer time too.

@idave, i don't know - i may have the figures wrong as i said, my head is cotton wool atm. But i'm sure they said 5 watts and something about bodyweight. I'll check.

It sounds factually correct DGOAB, just saying that it's not a great way to approach team selection.

Those sound like excuses...

Personally I think it's quite a large task.. I've averaged 22mph over 20 miles on my commute and done 10 miles at 25mph pace... although the womens UK 25 mile record averaged over 30 mph...

On roads in the real world it would be very difficult to attain TT sorts of av speeds,

My best 50TT is 1.59.03 (approx 25.2mph av) about 36miles of this on dual carriageway!

One of my regular road rides, with not many junctions and only a couple of hills would be 34 miles and if I'm going well would take me 1.53 - 1.54 so 17.8mph av or so?

Don't be too worried about peoples TT times, don't get me wrong the top boys are mind boglingly fast, but most people on here would be suprised what they could attain.

Interesting... do you mean people can go faster than what they'd imagine?

Dirty - what's your starting point?

TSY What are you training for? road races, TT's? Tri's?

On a TT specific bike, wheels etc, you would go quicker than on a normal road bike.

Dual carriagways are fast, dangerous but fast, generally good surfaces with lorries going past @ 50-60 pulling you along.

The quicker courses are flat or sometimes you start at the top of a big hill but on the way back you stop short of the hill as the rules allow for the start and finish to be a distance apart.

Tri's Tricky. I'm a fledgling in the world of competitive events but might as well put the training to some purpose.

Going to chuck in some road racing and some casual running events too.

I know I'm not the fastest in the world so just aiming to be the best I can be.

In racing terms they actually do nothing; no prizes for longest at threshold, no prizes for highest watts, you win or you don't, simple as.

There is also the idea that concentrating on the numbers means you neglect the basic skills associated with racing, the positioning, the shall-I-follow-this-move, the mind games, the ability to screw people over, the knowledge and bollocks required to sprint...

There is so much more to racing than the numbers you produce...

Totally 100% agree with this. This happened to me last year/season I was going to start racing for the 1st time and had never done any structured training. In december I paid for a coach and 2 fitness tests. I also did the idave diet

I started to get obsessed by the numbers and concentrated on the fitness aspect. I made huge gains in 5 months I thought and got excited about my numbers when looking at the hunter allen chart.

I soon realised after a few races I had some work to do. I had no race craft whatsoever. I was obsessed with the data.. my watts/kg, my threshold figure. I was beating all the guys in the club at the hill climbs and TT's yet they were getting points in races (and wins)

This year i'm doing it a lot different. i've had no fitness tests, I don't know what my threshold or w/kg is. I'm riding outside a lot more (last year i was a slave to rollers)

Off to majorca in a few weeks to get some miles in. 😀

TSY, Not sure my starting point as i've been learning bunch riding skills/tactis for the reasons Tricky outlines above so outdoor sessions have been slower than normal, and the rest has been intervals on the turbo. Can I tell you on 3rd March? I've a better idea - you can stop in at mine on your lejog ride this year and we can race each other? Whats another 20miles in the scale of things? 😀

I've no idea of my w/kg or anything else other than hr zones. I'll be interested to know when i go for the test but just because i like geeky things*. I'm not planning on actually using a power meter during my training - i'm just going to concentrate on racing, tactics and riding as hard as i can. And anything else i'm told to by the race squad leader.

2 more weekends, then its race time *scared*

*and speaking of geeky things, last night i tried beetroot juice as i've read a lot about it recently, the latest being this weeks cycling weekly. After juicing up fresh beetroot, all i can say is, it is rank! Its earthy and sour/bitter! However, i will keep with it to see if it makes a difference. 😐

I'm pretty sure it was a minimum of 5w/kg (for men) in the last minute of a ramp test on a turbo.

They seemed pretty aware it's quite an arbitrary limit for team selection. I think the problem is that it is such a big club so they needed to set something that was easily measurable and comparable, otherwise pretty much every bloke in the club will want a piece of the coaches time.

My target for this years racing is to not get spat out the back in at least one RR.

Off to majorca in a few weeks to get some miles in

I want to RR.

Aw Molgrips, that makes you seem forlorn...

It's tough is road racing, you get hammered a lot, even the training is hard; I had to train by myself to get fit enough to train with others.

It's tough is road racing

As opposed to the comfy sofa that is XC MTB racing? 🙂

RR is a special kind of pain. I'd say much tougher than XC. Once [s] I have been[/s] you're spat out the back, it's a long way to the finish (so I'm told...)

However, i will keep with it to see if it makes a difference.

There's no need to take it all the time. For about 3 days before a race 500ml* a day.

*i think it was 500ml, I'll check later.

I found it far harder than xc mtb, harder than cyclocross, harder than the 3 peaks, harder than fell running. To a large extent, all the above are like time trials in the company of others; your pace is dictated by you. RR us you having to react and ride at the pace set by others just to be in the game, then there's a layer of mental skill on top; not called chess on wheels for nothing.

Give it a go!

phil, 500ml is loads! I was going for about 250ml for 6 days instead as i couldn't stomach anymore.

mol, get a race licence then and enter some. But I sgree with idave, its a special kind of pain. My tactic for when i get spat out of the back is to chase down those ahead and drop them - got a few places higher last year in a RR by doing this. Or i look on it as a TT, and see just how fast i can go on my own once i'm off the back.

Road racing is tough. I did a few 3/4's could hang in the bunch fine. Then came our clubs race which was a 2/3/4. I got it handed to me properly. Dropped in a group of 5 on the 5th lap. Rode on my own for 2 laps. I said to myself i'll always finish a race.

I crossed the line and everyone had gone back to HQ. The pace in that race was unbelievable.. The 2nd cats tore it apart.. 100 metres after the neutralised zone the pace pushed up to 31mph on a slight incline!

I'd say it's way harder than XC. You will do anything to stay on someone's wheel. I have turned myself inside out to stay with the front group after a hill in 1 race as i knew if i lost contact i'd be out of the race

There's a good quote from cav in his book about track vs road. He said the likes of ed clancy and chris hoy really know how to hurt themselves on the track but the thing they don't have is the ability to suffer 😀

get a race licence then and enter some

I've moaned about this before.. I don't think there are many local to me.

You will do anything to stay on someone's wheel

I do that in XC... but there's no draughting so if you get there you don't get a break...

But I know what you mean. I'd like to give it a try and find out for myself 🙂

I've moaned about this before.. I don't think there are many local to me.

Where are you? cardiff?

Yep. I think we decided Castle Coombe was the closest place to go.

TSY, if you're serious about this stuff then I'd suggest talking to Jay on the DT forum.

I've moaned about this before.. I don't think there are many local to me.

I've done a few xc races and believe me it is different. If you're in a break/catching a break or trying to get onto a group it hurts. In XC it doesn't matter if you lose someone's wheel. You lose it in a RR and you're effective out.

Enter a 2/3/4 RR and you'll see what I mean 🙂

I've done a few xc races and believe me it is different.

I believe that.

Otoh in XC if you aren't near the front you're also effectively out, so you have to give it everything from the gun to get into the singletrack at the front. And then stay there for the first climb.. and then make sure you don't put a single wheel wrong on any of the corners on the singletrack otherwise the guy 6" behind you will come through.. etc etc. For 90 mins with no rest.

I'm sure finishing mid table is easier though in XC 🙂 (not that I've managed to do the above for more than a lap or two even on my best days)

The interesting thing in RR was that I found my first few 3rd cat races fast, then the 2nds go faster still, then we went to Belgium... 30mph, in a long line, in 53-12 for 2 hours. I got knocked off in one race and left a scar through a municipal flower bed 2 car lengths long; I thought I'd never stop!

Have a look at Hamish Haynes website, and look at the kms he puts in as a pro in one of the smaller teams, 270km races then 90 kms motorpacing... Bloody animals..

I'm starting to believe that maybe I do need to add a bit more structure to the volume, and then get a race calander sorted out.

TSY, have you considered telling iDave what your objectives/races etc are and paying him to do you a training plan? Assuming he's still offering that as a service.

You might find the specificity liberating - you won't have to think quite so hard about rest and what's relevant and stuff like that - and it'll almost certainly be a load more effective than just sort of doing things ad hoc, as and when.

And you'll probably do less but to a much greater effect. Which from your postings on here might be an issue for you. Anyway, just a thought.

I've seen iDave eat cakes 🙁

TBH this all just saves me thinking about work, that in itself is liberating.

BWD don't tell him that, otherwise I'll never beat him at Cwmcarn.

TBH this all just saves me thinking about work, that in itself is liberating.

I didn't realise you had a job...

😆

And to Molly 😆 too.

Ahh.. when is the STW cwm carn lap challenge? 🙂

Tricky - the only challenge is coming up with enough excuses as to why one hasn't got the fastest time 🙂

In your own time TD - post the times up here.

My PB is 56 minutes. It has to be a recent time though, the track is a fair bit slower than it was years ago.

Garmin + strava FTW

http://app.strava.com/segments/twrch-trail-full-lap-airstream-1-884827