[Closed] Builders Merchrants

Totally agree. Its a terrible system and I activity avoid them because of it. I must admit I've been fooled by it before, thinking I had a good deal from my clever haggling when in reality I just got a reasonable price. I'm sure plenty more professionals are equally fooled so are happy with it. Tbh I'd rather go to B&Q, choose what I want from the stack, and pay the known price. That said, my timber merchant is actually pretty good with set prices, listed online.

My sentiments exactly, I hate most of them but need to use some of them for certain things definite rip off merchants
They must hate Toolstation/Screwfix as they display prices

I think they rely on people being too meek to say anything when they tell you the price, or too naive maybe.

How come they can naver work out any sort of hand over between the sales office and the yard? Go to sales office, pay made up prices, get given a docket to take to someone in the yard, go to the yard and there is either noone around or they are far too busy to help, so stand around waiting to try to intercept someone who then looks at your docket, tells you he needs the pink slip rather than the yellow one so send you back to the office to play round 2.

Totally agree, I work in construction and I just want you to give me your best price without having to enter some kind of auction. Luckily most of my suppliers know this now. #what I can't understand though is go to the same supplier, different town and get charged differently! Drives me mad

Emailed 3 local BM for a cash quote on a small amount of 4x2, osb board and some rockwell type insultation .... dearest was 850, mid was 750 and cheapest 630

That's some percentage difference there.

Neither of the two dearer ones sent a follow up email asking if I was interested?

So they have no chance of finding out the market price themselves ??

You need an account to get anywhere near best prices, I think it’s the same with any wholesale/distributor type business.

There’s probably an element of mug punter comes into play and I know of one merchant whose staff had a year long competition to see who could charge the most for one particular item.

It's not just builders merchants, I spent over a decade working in and managing motor factors before I escaped the trade, penultimate place I worked in actually had a prize for who could 'extract the highest gross profit' from a non account customer each week. Tbh that wasn't the most toxic part of their culture and I left as soon as I could.

Never ever go into a merchant that you dont have a trading history with, without first getting a quote. Yard sales are propped up by people calling in.

If you have an account with one, set up a pricing agreement with them so you know what your charged beforehand. We have accounts with the big three and all our core materials are priced and agreed beforehand. They are just like mini auctions. Its industry wide and has always been that way.

I think they rely on people being too meek to say anything when they tell you the price, or too naive maybe.

This is it. It depends on my mood for how much interaction I can stand. Sometimes I get screwed because of that. Pisses me off to. Sent my Mum in to grab a angle grinder as mine died while I was reroofing my house and she got about £30 off by asking. Takes the piss.

TBF ..... I'm of the option I'd still rather pay inflated prices and to have to go into Wickes

I blood hate Wickes they never have what you want, and if they do the quality is shocking

Yeah, always hated using BMs for random pricing. 3 1/2 years ago we bought current house and started on a full refurb, I was so pleased when screwfix (and then Toolstation) opened a branch in our samll market town. I have "inherited" an account an at local BM, we did buy kithchen cabinets from there (about £12K), and bulky stuff, plasterboard, bulk bags etc, but I order via their website so know the price. Counter sales too much of a lottery on price. I'd rather drive 20 miles to nearest B&Q, tradepoint card helps there 😉
Probably spent 18K of 60K total so far with the BM.

A lot of handymen / small builders I know work on a cost plus basis for materials.
If something costs £100 and they have a 20% markup , then they make £20.
There is no incentive for them to get it for £80 as that's only a £16 markup.

I looked a friends timber bill, thought that looks expensive as I had bought similar amounts for 30% less from the same timber merchant as him. He pretty much told me the above.

I try to use the smaller, owner run, local independent merchants when I have to, they are much better to deal with than a big national who's employees rarely GAF

Try working in a DT dept in a school.
We have accounts with local BMs and timber places for materials, but as you're a school they still try and rip you off.

I got our technician to order a load of ply last year, the previous time I'd been there and picked out what we needed, decent quality and ok price. This time the cost was 25% more and the ply was more void than wood!

It's not just merchants, the sheds do it too.

Went to buy laminate flooring from Wickes, father in law came to help.

I was just gonna buy it.

He called someone over and said we are looking at this flooring but it's a bit expensive, what's the best you can do?

Assistant whipped out a booklet of 30% off vouchers and gave us one.

I couldn't believe it. Went and filled my trolley too.

I have an account with our local Builder's merchants (Ridgeons) and they charge you your account price based on volume. So if you buy 10 sheets you get a better price which is then fixed on your account, so the next time you buy, say 1 sheet, you get the 10 sheet price.

If it's something new and I'm buying a few, I always ask first to get a price agreed before buying.

If you're buying a lot of timber eg rafters, they cut to size in their own timber yard and deliver direct - saves a load of wasted wood on site.

I found a local timber merchant who put their prices online (about 1/2 Wickes prices so I figured it was closer to what a tradie would want to be paying...) so cuts out the hassle and haggling.

Shout out to Quay Timber, Newcastle.

Just went into a Jewsons

First mistake right there. For a while every time I opened a trade account with a local merchants a few weeks later it would get bought out by Jewsons and my account would in fact be with them

I've never had a good price from them for anything - their best price has always been on par with the worst I'd get anywhere else. I now drive past three branches of Jewsons to get to yards in other towns instead.

On one occasion I had a large order through them - couple of hundred lengths of timber at their useful pretty expensive price. Then I had to order the exact same quantity of the same material on the same day. Thats three times the worst price I'd get anywhere else.

Got the bills in a few weeks later and they had charged me exactly three times the price for the order in the afternoon that they'd charged me in the morning.

Covid might change things a bit through. Quite a few yards had to set up click and collect arrangements to keep trading and that means they now have pretty clear stock and pricing on their websites. (As a chain MKM have been pretty good at having stock and price info online)

Cheers for the link @kahurangi - that'll come in handy.

I used to build kitchen cabinets/furniture (small cottage industry) and we quickly found if you set up an account with a local independent BM the discounts were huge - PAR pine timber was 60% cheaper (basically the price per M trade was the same ballpark as the price per FT retail.
Same with MDF if you bought a pallet (40 sheets of 18mm) price was less than half per board than retail.

How am I supposed to budget and quote for things when the price can be basically anything?... ...Why can’t I know how much things are before I walk through the door?

https://www.jewson.co.uk/search?text=MR-MDF

In fact you can not only know the cost - but you can agree the price, check the stock and it looks like pay for it: https://www.jewson.co.uk/help#Click_Collect

Having worked in both national and independent plumbing merchants for it's all down to how much the person on the counter thinks they can get away with. A national will have much stricter limits in place than an independent but even then the bigger independents can get greedy once they realise it costs a lot of money to run anything more than 5 branches.

Trading history is what matters to merchants, it's just a big circlejerk. They'll give good discounts to people that come in a lot, then they'll come in more, then they'll get better discounts. Then they all get friendly and the good customers get taken golfing and to funny handshake clubs. You get the idea.

It's a shit industry and I'm glad I'm not working (directly) in it anymore.

Spent the summer of 1992 working in a owner-run landscaping and marble merchants that was absolutely chaotic, owner was batty and just ordered randomly from across the world, never knew what was going to turn up.

The day an artic turned up unexpected stacked full of giant Malaysian pots was fun, 4 of us spent the day emptying it.

A few gardens around North London must still have lovely patios, fountains and ballustrades that were bargainous as we simply had no idea what anything cost.

In fact you can not only know the cost

Aye but that's not the cost though. That's a cost. One of several depending on various factors.

We have a local independent.

Generally friendly. Will prepare a stack of stuff for you to collect and pay an hour later. They will also cut timber. Always seem to have a constant flow of local trade types at the door.

I'd echo the mug punter price comments though. Sometimes the price is perfectly good. And sometimes not. Seems mainly to depend on whether you have a chit chat to the friendly old gent in the shop back who is actually cutting your timber for you, or if you just roll up and get the counter staff.

OTOH, Wickes have (sometimes) free delivery and fixed prices, YMMV.

When I go to a merchants I fell the same way I imagine a woman feels when going to a car garage.

I an not wearing trousers with knee pads, I don't have a van outside and I can't say how big any one item is in mm, I think they see this as license to take the piss.

and I can’t say how big any one item is in mm

Why not?

Toolstation/Screwfix really have transformed the buying of diy stuff for 'enthusiastic amateurs'like me. Bulky landscaping materials remain the problem.

Screwfix are very good.

I use a mixture, local merchants for timber, masonry etc. very helpful and genuinely keen to keep your business. Wickes for plaster/plasterboard, with the 10% makes a differnce over the year then TS & SF for the bits in between.

Tried Buildbase for a few things but they took the piss royally, Jewsons not much better, Travis Perkins were good for some stuff but randomly more expensive on other bits... its a bit of a lottery, just imagine getting your shopping at the supermarket and it being 50% more expensive at the whim of whoever is on the till that day 🙁

The place local to work is probably one of the biggest independents in the country. Stock prices are pretty transparent (on the website or printed lists in store). e.g this seems reasonable price wise for your example:
https://www.cwberry.com/Building-Materials/Sheet-Materials/MDF/Moisture-Resistant-MDF_M01100019.htm

You only get the price lottery if ordering special stuff, but at least in that instance you can go armed with example prices.

They upped their game when a big B&Q and Travis Perkins opened close by - prior to that it was a scrum to get served in the shop (now on a deli style ticket system). Plumbing dept is still a scrum and 50:50 that you get a grumpy goblin in charge of the precious things 🙁

Loose material purchase used to need special jedi skills to negotiate tickets and weighbridge, but now they have a loadcell on the digger bucket so even that is relatively user friendly.

The little local hardwood place is a bit fluid on pricing, but as it is already about 1/3 B&Q "stripwood" prices I can live with a few quid either way. And an armfull of oak offcuts / damaged lengths for little projects is usually just a fiver.

I used to work at a Jewson in the early 90s, and the pricing was all over the place back then. Depending on how the general public customer treated me depended on how much discount they got.
(Accounts were priced elsewhere)
Greet me with a smile and a friendly hello got the best - greet me with a gruff p'd off attitude, got very little, if any. They did start to send a "tester" round to the depots to see if we gave discount out willy nilly though.
I also remember a couple of traveller types that came in for some ply/sheet material which is quite pricey, but because they were very friendly and smelt a bit "herbal" (and I was a raver at the time), they practically got the staff discount.. 🙂

Ah, more opaque pricing - according to the Howden's kitchens thread the other day, it's because they only deal with "grown ups".

As I said then, it's so that unscrupulous tradesmen can rip-off unwary customers deliberately.

Wickes are part of Travis Perkins, who also own Toolstation. Screwfix is Kingfisher, who also run B&Q.

Aye but that’s not the cost though. That’s a cost. One of several depending on various factors

Its the cost you'll pay if you go through C+C - your grumble was how could you budget/quote. Use that number. If you want to make an extra tenner, negotiate in store.

Sitting in a house that will become a project in a few months time this thread makes me feel so happy and excited to get going. Will I be shafted by a BM I go to myself or will I get shafted by a trade who buys without care because I'll be paying. Both I'm assuming.

Last time I was at my old local timber yard the lad being served before me was finishing up a massive load. Paperwork sorted and initialled a sizable bundle of notes quietly was passed his way. I'm assuming that was his boss getting stiffed or the customer who would be picking up the invoice.

They should be made to display all prices rather than hidden behind a computer screen, restaurants/ barbers/shops/pubs all seem to do it
Tyre and exhausts are as bad as builders merchants eg Kwik fit

Just noticed the thread title. Subtle, didn't spot it first time round.

Will I be shafted by a BM I go to myself or will I get shafted by a trade who buys without care because I’ll be paying. Both I’m assuming.

The advice from one of the self-build books I read was to create your materials list for your complete job, take it your local BM and negotiate a trade discount based on the overall job. If they don't want to do it, go elsewhere.

Its the cost you’ll pay if you go through C+C – your grumble was how could you budget/quote. Use that number. If you want to make an extra tenner, negotiate in store.

Yes but my grumble is that the price you pay, or even negotiate is completely subject to how the person on the counter is feeling.

That click and collect price would put anyone off.

When I quote for a job it's a balancing act of making a bit and making sure the job isn't so expensive that you don't get it at all.

It takes time to research and source materials and so I add 20% to cover my time doing that and often collecting too as in this case.

I certainly don't try to charge clients as much as possible for materials. I always explain that material choice won't make a massive difference. Complexity however can.

They can put that price on the website, but that doesn't help as it's not the price you'll pay if you're in a rush and need to nip into a merchant.
I imagine they inflate that price so that tradesmen feel they're getting a good price on account.

Bloody stupid anyway.
I wish Screwfix would start taking these dinosaurs over. I could shop around quickly then.

When I was in-between jobs a few years back I worked for my mates building company, mostly as a driver picking up and dropping off materials. Even though he had accounts with most of the major BM's, a few times when arriving with my shopping list I was palmed off with the more expensive materials as I was very obviously 'green'.
That yard then had an abrupt phonecall from my boss saying they were taking the urine and to credit the difference back to the account.

I worked at Graham when I first left school. Utterly backwards and archaic ways of working and it sounds like nothing has changed. Can’t believe they still operate the same way all these years later.

For various reasons i have applied for a job at the local screwfix.
Coz covid its a convoluted procedure, going to do a site visit tomorrow, with passport
The Brewing industry, and pubs will suffer irreparable damage tjrough 2021 amd i feel getting a p/t job to keep me in pot noodles is only going to get harder
So taking a job now, and having to compete with maybe 100 less applicants in say, June, is probably the way to go.
Went to 2 timber merchants today. Got exactly what i needed for half the price at the second one. Converting an alcove to 6 bookshelves on finished pine, narrowing in width and height as you get higher.

Then i discover the alcove isnt plumb so im mms out on half my cuts, too big, but too small for the chop saw without clamping a guide so i will handcut to size, and refinish with the orbital

Well it's all about developing a relationship with the right people in the merchants who you know will look after you whenever you pop in. At my local independent merchant I have a personal quote that I can refer to for all the stuff I've ever ordered and there is a large stock of fixings and other consumables so I almost never go to Screwfix as I dislike the whole experience of shopping there.

@mick_r

CWberry is local enough that I tend to use them if buying a decent qty of something as I can’t be bothered with the Moroccan market haggle routine.

What’s this hardwood place you mentioned?

The little local hardwood place is a bit fluid on pricing, but as it is already about 1/3 B&Q “stripwood” prices I can live with a few quid either way. And an armfull of oak offcuts / damaged lengths for little projects is usually just a fiver.

Well it’s all about developing a relationship with the right people in the merchants who you know will look after you whenever you pop in

Said the Victorians... 😂
I go in because I want chipboard, not chinwag.

Seriously, the idea that I need to get all matey with someone just to get a fair price is ridiculous.

Oldschool - Hoghton Timber in the mill at Higher Walton. Wednesdays and Saturday morning for collections and rummaging offcuts. Proper old school cobbled floor and sawdust. They have a new place for the actual big processing (from tree trunks) but can still cut and plane whatever you want at the mill.

Berrys does some sawn hardwood priced by the sq inch in a shed deep in the yard. I've still got a huge chunk of southern yellow pine from there when I needed a bit but was 1m minimum purchase 🙂

you buy 10 sheets you get a better price which is then fixed on your account, so the next time you buy, say 1 sheet, you get the 10 sheet price.

This.

For some reason I get a better price on wedges from a supplier than anyone else we know, 35% of the normal price on some serrated plastic wedges. As such my mates ask me to buy them.

It's really no surprise you get a better price if you're buying lots, be that often or one off. I order my timber through a mate's workshop as he gets a much better price than I do, which is no surprise as I've had an account with them for a year and have ordered three sheets. He orders pallets at a time several times a month. Doesn't even get charged delivery. It works to our benefit as the more we order through him the more he can push the supplier on price.

My time is worth more than any possible saving I would achieve. Not spending a huge amount maybe £100-200 a time. Gravel, concrete, fence posts, that kind of thing.

Click and collect at B&Q or whatever is just easier, my order is done in 5 minutes online and I get a text, can collect it on my way home or the stores are everywhere. £100 at Jewsons would start at £150, then maybe down to £80 or whatever the “discount” happens to be.

By the time I’ve messed around playing the game and/or made an extra trip etc I’ve spent that £20 or more as cost to the company.

I used to work on the software used in builders merchants. Can confirm. The pricing rules are hideously complicated.

My time is worth more than any possible saving I would achieve.

my bet is being called tarquin boosts the price in any builders yard by at least 100%...

you buy 10 sheets you get a better price which is then fixed on your account, so the next time you buy, say 1 sheet, you get the 10 sheet price.

I'd rather there was a fair price available to everyone, then if you're buying in bulk you can negotiate.

I bought several sheets of Ash veneered mdf from a company in Birmingham. Let's call them Davies Timber.

I use them firstly because they list their products online, I can see the price, it's a fair and competitive price and I know exactly what I'm paying and what I'll be charged if I need delivery.

Anyway, I had to have these Ash sheets replaced 3 times. Every time the delivery showed up they were just chucked on the back of a flat bed lorry, along with yesterdays grit, had muddy footprints on them and in the rain with barely a cover too. 😂

The driver looked genuinely scared what I'd say when he turned up each time. I suspect he was the first to get it in the neck.

The manager ended up ringing me after the third time.
I explained that I was making furniture and so I needed the sheets to be undamaged both sides.
He suggested that I should probably go to another supplier in future. 😂

Seemingly their other customers are quite happy paying a lot for damaged materials.

So yeah, they're great on one front in that you know what you're going to pay. I always check prices with them as it's very easy to do.
I won't be buying anything from them again though that can't stand being chucked about in the yard and walked all over.

I don't understand why you are so offended by the idea of going to your local reputable merchant, speaking to the sales manager, discussing your requirements and opening up a cash account with them. You only need to do this once, no further grovelling required. It's just how the system works. They will order in your ash boards at an agreed price and deliver them.

I'm not offended at all.

It’s just how the system works.

I know. I don't really like it.

As I said, this was a one off. I'm not going to go and get the manager a bottle of bubbly and some chocolates so I can get one sheet of mdf at a reasonable cost. 😂

I've had different prices when i've turned up in manky high vis overalls and when wandering in dressed fairly well.

I offer to help get the materials to help the guys out, lets me quickly sort through timber to get rid of the bendy split crap.

I felt like i had had my pants pulled down by Jewsons the other week.
I ordered a stack of scaffold boards from a timber merchant, to use as decking, but had miscacluated and ordered one short. 17 quid each they were.

I only needed 1m off the end of one so wasn't going to drag southern timbers lorry out for something i could get myself.

25 quid in B&Q, but they didnt have any
£27 in wickes, but then i was collecting the van from its MOT and was passing Jewsons so thought i would swing in and grab one.
Took them 20 minutes to get a forklift to get one down, so i was getting to be "late". Chopped it in half to get it in the van (i only needed 1m off it)

40 F'ING QUID! If i wasnt late and hadnt just cut it in half i would have unloaded it, but i was stuffed by then.

Paid getting on for 20 quid for a 6 quid bag of OPC in Bradfords once.
and i don't even bother going into Travis any more, their prices are crackers if you're not on a well negotiated account.

The funny thing is that SOME lines will be cheaper, and others will be vastly overpriced depending on who you are, and what your account has been negotiated at for each line.
My old work negotiated great rates on the stuff we knew we would need (Bulk materials, sheet timber, etc), but when you needed to thrown on a drill bit or a a tool that you hadn't expected to they made their money back. I think thats part of the model.

In more recent news, You can now click and collect from Jewsons, so you can compare the prices to the ususal DIY stores, and then have it ready for collection and paid for before you go and get it.

chickenman
Full Member
 
Quote
Well it’s all about developing a relationship with the right people in the merchants who you know will look after you whenever you pop in. At my local independent merchant I have a personal quote that I can refer to for all the stuff I’ve ever ordered and there is a large stock of fixings and other consumables so I almost never go to Screwfix as I dislike the whole experience of shopping there.

6 of one, half a doz of the other.

Some people like to think they're getting personalized service and a "best" price on something. It's why even tool station has free tea/coffee.

It's how Euro Car Parts work. Naive people think they're getting 60% off, nope, check the invoice it was "up to 60% off", that battery was probably +/-50p the same price all year. If you have an account then you just get the default lower price anyway. All the discount code really does is incentivizes people to click and collect rather than needing multiple staff at the counter trying to work out which filer fits your car.

Screwfix and toolstation are great, I can walk into a branch anywhere in the country, wherever I'm working and get the same stuff for a decent price. And not have to learn a new funny handshake for a local shop on each job, I haven't got enough time in my day for that crap. I just want to turn up, pay, load the van, take my free cup of coffee (is Screwfix actually the Waitrose of trade counters?) and get back to work.

Both are good examples of inelastic demand, I need a few hundred meters of trunking, or a car clutch, or whatever, as long as the price is reasonable then my demand for that product doesn't really change. Charge me £110, or £120 for the clutch and I won't really care. Quote me £300 unless I give you a funny handshake and I'll just go somewhere else.

Tyre and exhausts are as bad as builders merchants eg Kwik fit

Same as anywhere else really, although if you book on line they're never more than a couple of quid off black circles etc, so any in-branch inflated price is purely a convenience thing for people incapable of checking their own tires aren't balled before taking the car for it's MOT.

Ah, Euro car parts "Sales".
Always thought the regular 50/50/60% off sales a bit fake.
Anyway last week urgently needed new battery for wife's car, guessed about £50 before I started looking. ECP cheapest £95, and premium brands £125. No way I thought, must be pre-sale price hike period. Ebay £40 to £60 roughly, local motor factor quoted £63 on the phone, but didn't bother to tell me their trade counter was closed for drop-ins as I found out when I called there later. (I'd been to screwfix a few doors away, so not totally wasted journey).
Ordered on Ebay, premium Yuasa for just under £60. Delivered about 20 hours later!

That’s why Builder Depot is so busy. (London only). Just one really competitive price for everyone. I never go to Jewsons ever. They are a joke!