[Closed] Builders Merchrants

Totally agree. Its a terrible system and I activity avoid them because of it. I must admit I've been fooled by it before, thinking I had a good deal from my clever haggling when in reality I just got a reasonable price. I'm sure plenty more professionals are equally fooled so are happy with it. Tbh I'd rather go to B&Q, choose what I want from the stack, and pay the known price. That said, my timber merchant is actually pretty good with set prices, listed online.

My sentiments exactly, I hate most of them but need to use some of them for certain things definite rip off merchants
They must hate Toolstation/Screwfix as they display prices

I think they rely on people being too meek to say anything when they tell you the price, or too naive maybe.

How come they can naver work out any sort of hand over between the sales office and the yard? Go to sales office, pay made up prices, get given a docket to take to someone in the yard, go to the yard and there is either noone around or they are far too busy to help, so stand around waiting to try to intercept someone who then looks at your docket, tells you he needs the pink slip rather than the yellow one so send you back to the office to play round 2.

Totally agree, I work in construction and I just want you to give me your best price without having to enter some kind of auction. Luckily most of my suppliers know this now. #what I can't understand though is go to the same supplier, different town and get charged differently! Drives me mad

Emailed 3 local BM for a cash quote on a small amount of 4x2, osb board and some rockwell type insultation .... dearest was 850, mid was 750 and cheapest 630

That's some percentage difference there.

Neither of the two dearer ones sent a follow up email asking if I was interested?

So they have no chance of finding out the market price themselves ??

You need an account to get anywhere near best prices, I think it’s the same with any wholesale/distributor type business.

There’s probably an element of mug punter comes into play and I know of one merchant whose staff had a year long competition to see who could charge the most for one particular item.

It's not just builders merchants, I spent over a decade working in and managing motor factors before I escaped the trade, penultimate place I worked in actually had a prize for who could 'extract the highest gross profit' from a non account customer each week. Tbh that wasn't the most toxic part of their culture and I left as soon as I could.

Never ever go into a merchant that you dont have a trading history with, without first getting a quote. Yard sales are propped up by people calling in.

If you have an account with one, set up a pricing agreement with them so you know what your charged beforehand. We have accounts with the big three and all our core materials are priced and agreed beforehand. They are just like mini auctions. Its industry wide and has always been that way.

I think they rely on people being too meek to say anything when they tell you the price, or too naive maybe.

This is it. It depends on my mood for how much interaction I can stand. Sometimes I get screwed because of that. Pisses me off to. Sent my Mum in to grab a angle grinder as mine died while I was reroofing my house and she got about £30 off by asking. Takes the piss.

TBF ..... I'm of the option I'd still rather pay inflated prices and to have to go into Wickes

I blood hate Wickes they never have what you want, and if they do the quality is shocking

Yeah, always hated using BMs for random pricing. 3 1/2 years ago we bought current house and started on a full refurb, I was so pleased when screwfix (and then Toolstation) opened a branch in our samll market town. I have "inherited" an account an at local BM, we did buy kithchen cabinets from there (about £12K), and bulky stuff, plasterboard, bulk bags etc, but I order via their website so know the price. Counter sales too much of a lottery on price. I'd rather drive 20 miles to nearest B&Q, tradepoint card helps there 😉
Probably spent 18K of 60K total so far with the BM.

A lot of handymen / small builders I know work on a cost plus basis for materials.
If something costs £100 and they have a 20% markup , then they make £20.
There is no incentive for them to get it for £80 as that's only a £16 markup.

I looked a friends timber bill, thought that looks expensive as I had bought similar amounts for 30% less from the same timber merchant as him. He pretty much told me the above.

I try to use the smaller, owner run, local independent merchants when I have to, they are much better to deal with than a big national who's employees rarely GAF

Try working in a DT dept in a school.
We have accounts with local BMs and timber places for materials, but as you're a school they still try and rip you off.

I got our technician to order a load of ply last year, the previous time I'd been there and picked out what we needed, decent quality and ok price. This time the cost was 25% more and the ply was more void than wood!

It's not just merchants, the sheds do it too.

Went to buy laminate flooring from Wickes, father in law came to help.

I was just gonna buy it.

He called someone over and said we are looking at this flooring but it's a bit expensive, what's the best you can do?

Assistant whipped out a booklet of 30% off vouchers and gave us one.

I couldn't believe it. Went and filled my trolley too.

I have an account with our local Builder's merchants (Ridgeons) and they charge you your account price based on volume. So if you buy 10 sheets you get a better price which is then fixed on your account, so the next time you buy, say 1 sheet, you get the 10 sheet price.

If it's something new and I'm buying a few, I always ask first to get a price agreed before buying.

If you're buying a lot of timber eg rafters, they cut to size in their own timber yard and deliver direct - saves a load of wasted wood on site.

I found a local timber merchant who put their prices online (about 1/2 Wickes prices so I figured it was closer to what a tradie would want to be paying...) so cuts out the hassle and haggling.

Shout out to Quay Timber, Newcastle.

Just went into a Jewsons

First mistake right there. For a while every time I opened a trade account with a local merchants a few weeks later it would get bought out by Jewsons and my account would in fact be with them

I've never had a good price from them for anything - their best price has always been on par with the worst I'd get anywhere else. I now drive past three branches of Jewsons to get to yards in other towns instead.

On one occasion I had a large order through them - couple of hundred lengths of timber at their useful pretty expensive price. Then I had to order the exact same quantity of the same material on the same day. Thats three times the worst price I'd get anywhere else.

Got the bills in a few weeks later and they had charged me exactly three times the price for the order in the afternoon that they'd charged me in the morning.

Covid might change things a bit through. Quite a few yards had to set up click and collect arrangements to keep trading and that means they now have pretty clear stock and pricing on their websites. (As a chain MKM have been pretty good at having stock and price info online)

Cheers for the link @kahurangi - that'll come in handy.

I used to build kitchen cabinets/furniture (small cottage industry) and we quickly found if you set up an account with a local independent BM the discounts were huge - PAR pine timber was 60% cheaper (basically the price per M trade was the same ballpark as the price per FT retail.
Same with MDF if you bought a pallet (40 sheets of 18mm) price was less than half per board than retail.

How am I supposed to budget and quote for things when the price can be basically anything?... ...Why can’t I know how much things are before I walk through the door?

https://www.jewson.co.uk/search?text=MR-MDF

In fact you can not only know the cost - but you can agree the price, check the stock and it looks like pay for it: https://www.jewson.co.uk/help#Click_Collect

Having worked in both national and independent plumbing merchants for it's all down to how much the person on the counter thinks they can get away with. A national will have much stricter limits in place than an independent but even then the bigger independents can get greedy once they realise it costs a lot of money to run anything more than 5 branches.

Trading history is what matters to merchants, it's just a big circlejerk. They'll give good discounts to people that come in a lot, then they'll come in more, then they'll get better discounts. Then they all get friendly and the good customers get taken golfing and to funny handshake clubs. You get the idea.

It's a shit industry and I'm glad I'm not working (directly) in it anymore.

Spent the summer of 1992 working in a owner-run landscaping and marble merchants that was absolutely chaotic, owner was batty and just ordered randomly from across the world, never knew what was going to turn up.

The day an artic turned up unexpected stacked full of giant Malaysian pots was fun, 4 of us spent the day emptying it.

A few gardens around North London must still have lovely patios, fountains and ballustrades that were bargainous as we simply had no idea what anything cost.

In fact you can not only know the cost

Aye but that's not the cost though. That's a cost. One of several depending on various factors.

We have a local independent.

Generally friendly. Will prepare a stack of stuff for you to collect and pay an hour later. They will also cut timber. Always seem to have a constant flow of local trade types at the door.

I'd echo the mug punter price comments though. Sometimes the price is perfectly good. And sometimes not. Seems mainly to depend on whether you have a chit chat to the friendly old gent in the shop back who is actually cutting your timber for you, or if you just roll up and get the counter staff.

OTOH, Wickes have (sometimes) free delivery and fixed prices, YMMV.

When I go to a merchants I fell the same way I imagine a woman feels when going to a car garage.

I an not wearing trousers with knee pads, I don't have a van outside and I can't say how big any one item is in mm, I think they see this as license to take the piss.

and I can’t say how big any one item is in mm

Why not?

Toolstation/Screwfix really have transformed the buying of diy stuff for 'enthusiastic amateurs'like me. Bulky landscaping materials remain the problem.

Screwfix are very good.

I use a mixture, local merchants for timber, masonry etc. very helpful and genuinely keen to keep your business. Wickes for plaster/plasterboard, with the 10% makes a differnce over the year then TS & SF for the bits in between.

Tried Buildbase for a few things but they took the piss royally, Jewsons not much better, Travis Perkins were good for some stuff but randomly more expensive on other bits... its a bit of a lottery, just imagine getting your shopping at the supermarket and it being 50% more expensive at the whim of whoever is on the till that day 🙁

The place local to work is probably one of the biggest independents in the country. Stock prices are pretty transparent (on the website or printed lists in store). e.g this seems reasonable price wise for your example:
https://www.cwberry.com/Building-Materials/Sheet-Materials/MDF/Moisture-Resistant-MDF_M01100019.htm

You only get the price lottery if ordering special stuff, but at least in that instance you can go armed with example prices.

They upped their game when a big B&Q and Travis Perkins opened close by - prior to that it was a scrum to get served in the shop (now on a deli style ticket system). Plumbing dept is still a scrum and 50:50 that you get a grumpy goblin in charge of the precious things 🙁

Loose material purchase used to need special jedi skills to negotiate tickets and weighbridge, but now they have a loadcell on the digger bucket so even that is relatively user friendly.

The little local hardwood place is a bit fluid on pricing, but as it is already about 1/3 B&Q "stripwood" prices I can live with a few quid either way. And an armfull of oak offcuts / damaged lengths for little projects is usually just a fiver.

I used to work at a Jewson in the early 90s, and the pricing was all over the place back then. Depending on how the general public customer treated me depended on how much discount they got.
(Accounts were priced elsewhere)
Greet me with a smile and a friendly hello got the best - greet me with a gruff p'd off attitude, got very little, if any. They did start to send a "tester" round to the depots to see if we gave discount out willy nilly though.
I also remember a couple of traveller types that came in for some ply/sheet material which is quite pricey, but because they were very friendly and smelt a bit "herbal" (and I was a raver at the time), they practically got the staff discount.. 🙂

Ah, more opaque pricing - according to the Howden's kitchens thread the other day, it's because they only deal with "grown ups".

As I said then, it's so that unscrupulous tradesmen can rip-off unwary customers deliberately.

Wickes are part of Travis Perkins, who also own Toolstation. Screwfix is Kingfisher, who also run B&Q.

Aye but that’s not the cost though. That’s a cost. One of several depending on various factors

Its the cost you'll pay if you go through C+C - your grumble was how could you budget/quote. Use that number. If you want to make an extra tenner, negotiate in store.

Sitting in a house that will become a project in a few months time this thread makes me feel so happy and excited to get going. Will I be shafted by a BM I go to myself or will I get shafted by a trade who buys without care because I'll be paying. Both I'm assuming.

Last time I was at my old local timber yard the lad being served before me was finishing up a massive load. Paperwork sorted and initialled a sizable bundle of notes quietly was passed his way. I'm assuming that was his boss getting stiffed or the customer who would be picking up the invoice.

They should be made to display all prices rather than hidden behind a computer screen, restaurants/ barbers/shops/pubs all seem to do it
Tyre and exhausts are as bad as builders merchants eg Kwik fit

Just noticed the thread title. Subtle, didn't spot it first time round.

Will I be shafted by a BM I go to myself or will I get shafted by a trade who buys without care because I’ll be paying. Both I’m assuming.

The advice from one of the self-build books I read was to create your materials list for your complete job, take it your local BM and negotiate a trade discount based on the overall job. If they don't want to do it, go elsewhere.

Its the cost you’ll pay if you go through C+C – your grumble was how could you budget/quote. Use that number. If you want to make an extra tenner, negotiate in store.

Yes but my grumble is that the price you pay, or even negotiate is completely subject to how the person on the counter is feeling.

That click and collect price would put anyone off.

When I quote for a job it's a balancing act of making a bit and making sure the job isn't so expensive that you don't get it at all.

It takes time to research and source materials and so I add 20% to cover my time doing that and often collecting too as in this case.

I certainly don't try to charge clients as much as possible for materials. I always explain that material choice won't make a massive difference. Complexity however can.

They can put that price on the website, but that doesn't help as it's not the price you'll pay if you're in a rush and need to nip into a merchant.
I imagine they inflate that price so that tradesmen feel they're getting a good price on account.

Bloody stupid anyway.
I wish Screwfix would start taking these dinosaurs over. I could shop around quickly then.

When I was in-between jobs a few years back I worked for my mates building company, mostly as a driver picking up and dropping off materials. Even though he had accounts with most of the major BM's, a few times when arriving with my shopping list I was palmed off with the more expensive materials as I was very obviously 'green'.
That yard then had an abrupt phonecall from my boss saying they were taking the urine and to credit the difference back to the account.

I worked at Graham when I first left school. Utterly backwards and archaic ways of working and it sounds like nothing has changed. Can’t believe they still operate the same way all these years later.

For various reasons i have applied for a job at the local screwfix.
Coz covid its a convoluted procedure, going to do a site visit tomorrow, with passport
The Brewing industry, and pubs will suffer irreparable damage tjrough 2021 amd i feel getting a p/t job to keep me in pot noodles is only going to get harder
So taking a job now, and having to compete with maybe 100 less applicants in say, June, is probably the way to go.
Went to 2 timber merchants today. Got exactly what i needed for half the price at the second one. Converting an alcove to 6 bookshelves on finished pine, narrowing in width and height as you get higher.

Then i discover the alcove isnt plumb so im mms out on half my cuts, too big, but too small for the chop saw without clamping a guide so i will handcut to size, and refinish with the orbital

Well it's all about developing a relationship with the right people in the merchants who you know will look after you whenever you pop in. At my local independent merchant I have a personal quote that I can refer to for all the stuff I've ever ordered and there is a large stock of fixings and other consumables so I almost never go to Screwfix as I dislike the whole experience of shopping there.

@mick_r

CWberry is local enough that I tend to use them if buying a decent qty of something as I can’t be bothered with the Moroccan market haggle routine.

What’s this hardwood place you mentioned?

The little local hardwood place is a bit fluid on pricing, but as it is already about 1/3 B&Q “stripwood” prices I can live with a few quid either way. And an armfull of oak offcuts / damaged lengths for little projects is usually just a fiver.