Been reading around and I'm curious: How easy it is to build muscle mass, without deliberately eating additional protein?
Has anyone here done it?
exercise generally works pretty well
It would just be very, very slow. Surely if you're wanting to gain mass, why not give your body all it needs to achieve it?
Protein is not some placebo, its the building blocks of all cells.
extra to need or extra to you feed it. the 2 are often quite different.
Depends how much you get in your diet. I just eat fairly well and have a decent amount of protein in the food i eat.
It depends what your current protein intake is surely?
to build muscle mass the following is required: a certain level of protein to stimulate growth (this amount is up for debate, but consuming extra protein won't automatically build extra muscle), a calorie surplus (this is what the muscle is actually built from and can be from anything but most people choose carbs as that's the easiest to eat extra of), some kind of exercise that stimulates the body to adapt itself and most importantly sufficient rest (where the muscle actually gets rebuilt).
It's not rocket science so yes it's "easy" but it's also a very slow process so requires commitment & consistency.
I think what I find curious is the suggestion that extra protein shakes are required immediately after a workout.
What is a "normal" amount of protein to consume?
As stated this is a contentious issue. Maybe 100-150g/day for an average person? YMMV. Doing the right exercises, eating (a lot of) good food & getting rest are much more important IMO.
I think what I find curious is the suggestion that extra protein shakes are required immediately after a workout.
I [i]think[/i] that this is because of a metabolic window (20 mins from memory) after exercise. Someone will come along shortly who knows what they're talking about.......
I think if you want to build muscle you want to be consuming your bodyweight (kg) x 2 (in grams).
eg. 80kg x 2 = 160g per day.
This was just a figure that was thrown about alot when i was looking at weight training.
Seems like OP has confused 2 things: need for extra protein and need for sports nutrition products.
Sure you will need 1) exercise and 2) proper diet for muscle growth. However, there is zero need for protein shakes, bars and such - most people can get enough protein from good, balanced diet.
Having a protein shake or bar after exercise is proven to be beneficial but it it much less significant than proper exercise, proper diet and sleep.
I'm sure that's what the protein shake manufacturers would have you believe, yes.I think that this is because of a metabolic window (20 mins from memory) after exercise.
Like all generalisations I would be extremely sceptical of this formula. If it arrives at the correct figure then that is purely by chance I would say.I think if you want to build muscle you want to be consuming your bodyweight (kg) x 2 (in grams).
I think what I find curious is the suggestion that extra protein shakes are required immediately after a workout.
I'm pretty sure this is a 'look at me I just worked out' thing.
When I do weight training or bike strength training I just add approx 30% extra in high protein foods [as a Veggie that's "Fake Meats", eggs or pulses/grains in the same meal [or oats for brekkie - NB this causes serious wind] and hit SIS Rego after every ride/session, and perhaps a small one in the morning too.
Read the packages on food.
I always eat a balanced diet.
It's not an exact method, but it works well enough
Protein drinks are best consumed in the morning, to kick-start the system for growth. Around half an hour before excercise and immediately afterwards.
Protein shakes can contain fast digesting protien like whey protein, or slow digesting like Casein.
They arent just protein either, they have a moderate carb percentage. When carbs are taken with protein the body gets an insulin rush. The insulin kick starts the body to make glycogen which stores the glucose creating energy for cells.
Its widely known in the body building community that ingesting a protein supplement after working out triggers a release of growth hormones. So say scientists an that 😉
Ment to add that no matter how many protein shakes you have a day, if its not along side large decent meals with good ingredients, a good workout plan and alot of rest, it will do sweet F A
without deliberately eating additional protein?
How about accidently eating additional protein?
I'm pretty sure this is a 'look at me I just worked out' thing.
Possibly for some, but it's also a convenient, cheap and quick way to consume high quality protein and carbs immediately after exercise. I find that the above sentiment comes from a chip on the shoulder of the observer.
Ment (sic) to add that no matter how many protein shakes you have a day, if its not along side large decent meals with good ingredients, a good workout plan and alot of rest, it will do sweet F A
Depends what's in your "protein shakes". Mine have bananas, cooked sweet potato, nut oils, berries, whey protein, spinach and other goodies in there. I think this would be a very good diet to grow muscle with but I also like to consume food that isn't liquidised. Maximuscle premixed on the other hand wouln't be that great.
Like all generalisations I would be extremely sceptical of this formula. If it arrives at the correct figure then that is purely by chance I would say.
This isn't a generalisation, (bodyweight in kg x2 for g of protein) it is an estimate of the optimal amount to have based on previous experience of training by many people. Might be a bit higher, might be lower, 100s of factors are in play. Decent starting point though. See how it works and go from there.
"Protein shakes" get a bad rap. They are not all the same. Liquidising high quality and high protein foods for convenience, cost, ease and speed of disgestion is a great idea if you're looking to consume more food than normal maintenance. Boshing back branded pre mixed powders than can be 40%+ sugars isn't so great.
Boshing back branded pre mixed powders than can be 40%+ sugars isn't so great.
Couldnt agree more, and brands such as maxi muscle and the like are the worst. you need to know what to look for when buying premixed powdered protein.
Obviously all natural ingredients like yours are much better and you know what is going in them.
However some oat based powders are actually decent, giving you a massive hit of protein, carbs and a minimum amount of sugars.
I'd agree with the oats bit totally.
If you're on a budget and you want to up your calories then a shake of:
Oat powder
Whey Protein
Cocoa powder/milk shake powder
Full fat milk
Look on Bulkpowders or Myprotein for the bits and bobs. It's drinkable and effective.
You're contradicting yourself now. Earlier you were talking about the "insulin rush" which implies consuming fast-acting carbs i.e. sugar. Now you're talking about slow-acting carbs. If I were a cynic I'd say you didn't understand the science behind what you are saying and are just spouting things you've read in Men's Health. 😉However some oat based powders are actually decent, giving you a massive hit of protein, carbs and a minimum amount of sugars.
re-read the post, didnt say anything about fast acting CARBS. Spoke about fast digesting proteins. You can get whey powders built up with oats...
but you can be as cynical as you like fella 🙄
This is a subject of interest to me at the moment because having just turned 57 I'm finding it increasingly difficult to build and hold leg strength and my leg muscles are sore and tired for two days after every ride. I use maltodextrin for energy while riding and have thought about using whey protein after rides as I have a fairly low-protein diet and don't eat very big meals.
re-read the post, didnt say anything about fast acting CARBS.
oh but you did:
When carbs are taken with protein the body gets an insulin rush.
Either way I'm not interested in an argument. This just goes to show the proliferation of so-called "bro science" and misunderstood information around this subject. The fact is that [i]possibly[/i] supplements have a place if you are a professional athlete (which you may well be) but for the rest of us... as hmanchester says they are a good way of making sure you get the required macronutrients, but they are no substitute for eating real food and certainly not essential.
fella
Oh, he didn't just say that!
Fella: The ultimate insult.Within certain circles of the British Military the word 'c' is so regularly used it has lost all meaning and causes no offence whatsoever.
The word 'fella' is now commonly used as a replacement and holds equally insulting attributes as the word 'c' does to most normal people.
Oi Fella! Wind your f*ng neck in or I'll stick this baton straight through your ears and ride you around the place like a f*ng horse.
...and so an interesting post turns into more bitching.
Yeah, sorry about that! Back on topic. Re. your recovery. A lot of the time poor recovery can be attributed simply to not eating enough (of everything, protein included) which sounds like it might be the case for you. Also do you really need the sugary drink whilst you're riding?
It's carbohydrate, not sugar. I would never drink anything sugary!
Must admit that I'm eating small meals at the moment to try to lose some of the weight I accumulated during a recent overseas trip. Interestingly when I do go abroad and I do zero exercise and eat a high-protein high-carb hotel diet for two weeks I feel really strong on my return home, just the cardio isn't too good and I put on fat.
Sorry if you took offense to 'fella' zilo, I was unaware Its commonly known to be a replacement for the C bomb.
Either way, I was merely saying that from a high metabolism point of view, the oats in it keep me feeling full between meals whilst the protein is digested quickly.
Reverting back to the original question, personally coming from an ectomorph body type ( very slim ) I have achieved the results Im after by taking additional protein.
as hmanchester says they are a good way of making sure you get the required macronutrients, but they are no substitute for eating real food and certainly not essential.
Not really got what I was on about. Done right they can be a very good substitute for eating "real food" (or whatever that means) if you have time, cost, convenience, satiety factors to deal with.
The fact is that possibly supplements have a place if you are a professional athlete
Yes they do. I compete to a high level in sport but don't get paid directly - does this mean that they don't have a place in my diet? (They do).
Either way I'm not interested in an argument
It shows.
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to build and hold leg strength and my leg muscles are sore and tired for two days after every ride
I have a fairly low-protein diet and don't eat very big meals
Here's a problem. The two main factors in recovery are rest and nutrition. Small amounts of low protein food in combination with loads of exercise is probably going to cause recovery issues.
So I think - for your bog standard man (very much me) who has:
Recently lost a couple of stone (14 down to 12)
Dieted by eating around 2000 calories and doing cardio
A goal of now putting some weight back on in shape of muscle
Just eating a perfectly normal balanced diet and doing some weights in the gym will result in him achieving his goal?
(As long as he eats when he's hungry: ideally protein, but picking something else (like chocolate) will just mean progress is slower?)
I got a bit lost in the middle - perhaps I'm trying to make it too simple?!
Pretty much. Eat well, train specific muscle groups at the gym and get atleast 8 hours of sleep a night and you will be on your way.
If you really must eat chocolate, then go for dark as its slightly better for you. Keep trans fats down I.e butter/margarine, anything fried. But keep the healthy fats found in fish, almonds, avocados etc
it means getting your nutrients from natural foods like meat & veg rather than using powders, potions & spreadsheets to achieve what you have decided is your "optimal" nutrient intake - as I'm sure you well know."real food" (or whatever that means)
professional/serious recreational/whatever. I'm sure you could have worked that out for yourself. The point is that most of the people who are buying these products - the target market - are not serious athletes and simply don't need them.Yes they do. I compete to a high level in sport but don't get paid directly - does this mean that they don't have a place in my diet? (They do).
A lot of the time poor recovery can be attributed simply to not eating enough (of everything, protein included)
I've found this to be the case. If I do a lot of hard riding then I find I need to eat lots after exercise to recover well. This is fun, but it can also be hard going as my stomach doesn't feel like much immediately after a hard ride. It's also habit forming, I get used to stuffing my face which isn't ideal.
Recovery drink, with protein and carbs, is a good way of getting a measured amount without stuffing my stomach or making me into a binge eating monster. It doesn't matter if I am a professional athlete or not. It helps me do what I do more easily, regardless of what pace that is. I would say it's a good tool for those who are training, rather than just riding recreationally ad-hoc.
I've definitely found that with regular (daily) training (in the form of commuting), eating more can help me lose weight because I can exercise harder and promote more muscle growth.
I don't do protein drinks though through the day. As I understand it the science here is questionable.
I used to train with my brother. We have a similar frame. I took my diet seriously. He didn't eat much.
I peaked at 18-19 stone. He stayed around 11-12.
He was very strong for his weight though.
So, yes, probably. But I'd guess total calories has as much to do with it as protein.
Whether you're an athlete or not they are not a meal replacement. They have been made for convenience, helping you get your desired calorie intake between decent meals. Without you would have to find the time to prepare, cook and eat 2 or 3 extra meals in your day when you could get that goodness in 3 minutes by drinking a shake. But like everything, there are good ones, but also a great amount of bad ones full of S**t
PS I did not know that muscle was build from carbohydrate. That's very interesting.
Not carbs specifically, just surplus calories so could be from carbs/protein/fat. Certainly not just protein.
maltrodextrin [i]is[/i] (a type of) sugar (which itself is carbohydrate) so yes you would, I'm afraid!It's carbohydrate, not sugar. I would never drink anything sugary!
Whilst the physiology crew are in - anyone see that cardiologist on BBC breakfast this morning?
No. What did he say?
He said that sugar was a terrible thing, which we have all heard before, but he said something along the lines of three teaspoons of 'added' sugar per day resulted in an 11 fold increase in risk of type II diabetes regardless of any other factor INCLUDING the amount of exercise you do...
To me that implies something else bad about sugar besides high GI - because high GI can be a good thing if you have been exercising.
Can't find anything about this particular study online though.
Something to do with insulin resistance perhaps if the added sugar is an everyday occurrence?
Well perhaps but exercise increases insulin sensitivity so decreases resistance.. everything I've read about exercise suggests that it counteracts the risks of Type II.
However finding something high GI at work to eat post-training/commute is hard without sugar. White bread or toast is about it.