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Aside from the pointless arguing over bank bailouts, what I find interesting is that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we are told we must take the long view, that we cannot predict the future, and that unknown threats may arise which make it a strategic necessity to spend hundreds of billions of pounds on them. Yet when it comes to having our own capability for making a material that is a cornerstone of an industrial society, we are told that it's ok, we can import it, we don't need to make it ourselves, and that some other country will always be there to supply us with it no matter what may happen in the future. Seems to me the word 'strategic' is used only when it suits.
Nailed it.
Finally when i was doing my apprenticeship bought a hammer from the local market, with a sticker on it saying made in China, foreman saw it asked why id bought it , isaid because it was cheap and all i could afford, STANLEY where 3 times the price, foreman took it off me and asked me to follow him to the loading bay of the Cupola, large iron melting furnace in the Foundry, he threw it in the molten iron.
I was gutted.
As i walked back with him he said you work for a british steel making company and yet you buy a foreign cheap tool, heres a chit for a new stanley hammer from the stores, treasure it, and i still have that hammer now.
Yet when it comes to having our own capability for making a material that is a cornerstone of an industrial society, we are told that it's ok, we can import it, we don't need to make it ourselves, and that some other country will always be there to supply us with it no matter what may happen in the future. Seems to me the word 'strategic' is used only when it suits.
Worked for a senior manager of unilever who was from South africa, his job setting up new plants round the world, i asked why detergenmts where not all made abroad but all round the world, expecting him to sy if the boat sunk it would cause huge pollution of the seas, he said in a war or some other catastrophic thing happening they needed a supply in most countries to still make a profit for the company, EG NO STOCK NO PROFIT.
nickc - MemberMight be cheap now, but how much will Chinese steel be when it hasn't got any competition left...Isn't that how capitalism works?
The Starbucks model in essence. Run at a loss until you put our competition out of business, then you can do, and charge what the hell you like.
Have the usual right wingers ever noticed how those of us who've actually witnessed first hand - in my case the miners in the 80's - the scorched earth decimation that follows to these communities, are the ones most vocal that a government shouldn't sit idly by and watch it happen, while doing nothing. Those of us who know from bitter experience what PT has got coming, wouldn't wish it on anyone
Ever watched heroine use get a grip of a community who until recently had jobs, and a decent standard of living, who now got nowt, least of all any hope, and are now living on the poverty line? There's possibly more depressing things to witness. Possibly...?
I haven't read every post so apologies if this has already been said. Part of the problem for UK steel was high electricity prices/carbon taxes to reduce CO2. But the global CO2 is not reduced if instead of making it here we buy it from China where the furnaces are powered by coal fired electricity. We are just transferring our CO2 output to China.
ORDER-ORDER.COM dazh - MemberAside from the pointless arguing over bank bailouts, what I find interesting is that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we are told we must take the long view, that we cannot predict the future, and that unknown threats may arise which make it a strategic necessity to spend hundreds of billions of pounds on them. Yet when it comes to having our own capability for making a material that is a cornerstone of an industrial society, we are told that it's ok, we can import it, we don't need to make it ourselves, and that some other country will always be there to supply us with it no matter what may happen in the future. Seems to me the word 'strategic' is used only when it suits.
The rare valid point, spotted in the wild.
Yet when it comes to having our own capability for making a material that is a cornerstone of an industrial society, we are told that it's ok, we can import it, we don't need to make it ourselves, and that some other country will always be there to supply us with it no matter what may happen in the future.
that'll be the swedes, always neutral and going by the previous big one no qualms on who they sell it too 😉
Plenty of less sexy industries have all but disappeared such as textiles and shoe manufacturing from areas such not too far from Binners,
Romantic for mining? you can even have a go at the 150,000 tonnes of coal reserves up the road here.
Whether PT can or should be saved is probably going to get lost in political rehetoric, single industry towns are always going to be vulnerable. My preference is that we keep it going but only if there is a decent plan, the lack of anything beyond "intervene" and nationalise doesn't change the business model
except our government blocked attempts at the EU to scrap the levy cap only last month
I thought the reason the government (along with other countries) didn't support the EU proposal is that it coupled derisory action on imported chinese seamless pipe, heavy plate and hot-rolled flat steel steel with additional controls that would have impacted advanced steel products of the sort made in the UK and which are currently profitable? i.e. the proposal was poorly thought out and whilst giving negligible relief to one part of the steel industry would have simultaneously made another sector unprofitable. As I recall it the EU wasn't willing to uncouple these two things to enable rapid action to be taken on the controls where all countries were already in agreement.
project - MemberFinally when i was doing my apprenticeship bought a hammer from the local market, with a sticker on it saying made in China, foreman saw it asked why id bought it , isaid because it was cheap and all i could afford, STANLEY where 3 times the price, foreman took it off me and asked me to follow him to the loading bay of the Cupola, large iron melting furnace in the Foundry, he threw it in the molten iron.
I was gutted.
As i walked back with him he said you work for a british steel making company and yet you buy a foreign cheap tool, heres a chit for a new stanley hammer from the stores, treasure it, and i still have that hammer now.
Nice sentiment but Stanley are an American company!
At the time you could have bought a Britool hammer but then they were bought by the French company Facom & in a twist of fate they are all now owned by Stanley Black and Decker.
The rare valid point, spotted in the wild
Or just a sixth form emotive straw man argument.
Newsnight has had a bit more time to come up with a (hopefully) better piece than last night now
Edit: sadly not so far. Time to switch to Bear Grylls? (Bllx a repeat. Must be time for bed)
Only read page 1 but why not take over British steel and then use what's produced for all the supposed upcoming projects like hs2? Sell the steel at a cost neutral price to build public projects?
We're not allowed to do this, no-one in the European Union is. As unpalatable as it is in this instance it does in theory give UK firms a bash at supplying infrastructure projects in other EU countries.
[i]Nice sentiment but Stanley are an American company![/i]
Yes but produced here (and AFAIK run almost as a separate company).
enfht - MemberOr just a sixth form emotive straw man argument.
I like the way you countered the argument in detail there and explained its fallacies and weaknesses, very compelling.
For the record; it's not a straw man, it reasonably summarises many of the arguments in favour of keeping nuclear weapons and the similarities to the arguments for keeping critical industry. It's not an appeal to emotion either, clearly, there's no justification for that claim. But your "sixth form" ad hom was definitely an ad hom
The definative word comes on Newsnight from the incredibly grounded financial journalist from The Times....
They all need to move to London
So that's that then.
All sorted!
Phew!
Surely at that point, another country comes along that can produce it cheaper than China is now selling it, like they did to us?
Except for the fact that the second that happens the Chinese state will subsidise their export steel and impose tariffs on imported steel to collapse the competition.
Capitalism is a game that only works when everyone plays by the same rules.
It sounds like bad news for the Chinese taxpayer that apparently there's a state policy to subsidise every steel consumer in the world, but good news for everyone else.
ICHEF-1.BBCI.CO.UK They all need to move to London
now where have I heard that before ?
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As i walked back with him he said you work for a british steel making company and yet you buy a foreign cheap tool, heres a chit for a new stanley hammer from the stores,
I dunno how long ago that was, but he might have been a bit horrified to find that Corus' (and I believe it still operates under Tata) sales division had no requirement to buy and sell their own steel. It operated more like city trading house.
post deleted
UK agriculture receives around £3.6 billion per annum in government subsidies (little wonder land is £10k) yet no mention of that getting cut in the budget? All depends on who is receiving the true benefit when it comes to subsidies...
Northwind - the point is making is not a critical industry. Its a low level, bottom of the technical/manufacturing food chain business. The future is "value added" manufacturing and/or design and technical innovation - exactly what the Germans have focused on and what they are very good at. We need to face the fact they have been a lot better at it than us From what I've read a lot of our steel usage / requirements is in construction. Its not high tech making steel girders or reinforcing mesh for concrete. As the Welsh Unite representative said, the construction insdustry won't pay extra for higher quality British steel. Our manufacturing future is more like Hope Technology or our leadership in building Formula 1 cars.
I appreciate the controversy of "get on your bike" but we cannot ignore the reality that people are prepared to travel half way accross Europe to get a job in the UK. Steel manufacturing has been in decline for decades, my father got out of the business in the mid 1970's
Parking might be a problem...
More importantly though, theres a plentiful supply of affordable housing, so I'm sure it'll be fine
And the retraining from steelworker to City trader or web developer in a funky Hoxton agency is a quick and painless one
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theres always this[/url]
@oldman farming is in a major crises flooded with cheap EU imports particularly in the wake of sanctions on Russia. The EU will not disclose which 6 countries are flouting the animal welfare laws in pork production but they still allow them to export cheap meat to the UK.
More importantly though, theres a plentiful supply of affordable housing, so I'm sure it'll be fine
Doesn't seem to be dissuading EU migrants though. SE housing prices refiect wages and employment opportunities.
jambalaya - MemberNorthwind - the point is making is not a critical industry.
Sure, we can build everything we need out of money.
Doesn't seem to be dissuading EU migrants though. SE housing prices refiect wages and employment opportunities.
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everyone going to keep their lawnmowers now then?[/url]
the point is making is not a critical industry. Its a low level, bottom of the technical/manufacturing food chain business. The future is "value added" manufacturing and/or design and technical innovation
Rubbish it is a critical industry in that if you want to build ships, cars, industrial plant etc you need steel. TATA sell value added products, it isn't all bottom of the food chain stuff.
Steel manufacturing has been in decline for decades,
In terms of people employed yes, in terms of quantity produced no so much.
Dave has just been on the Radio saying that he's 'ruling nothing out'. As it was on the radio it was difficult to tell if he was stifling a yawn. Sounded like it
I'm saying that in reality he's ruling everything out that might involve actually doing anything other than 'leaving it to the market'. Despite the market being clearly rigged.
So as PT closes and the local businesses go down like dominoes, and all thats left on the high street is bookies and pound shops, they'll build a Business Park on a piece of brownfield land. Having paid a London consultant £3 million to come up with this 'solution'. It'll be full of quickly thrown up industrial units which will sit empty, but given an emotive name that symbolises the regions history. There will be a sculpture depicting a steelworker. Another man will come in from London to the local Job Centre Plus, for a couple of weeks, to ask if they've thought about careers as care workers or Baristas?
PT will then be forgotten about, and abandoned to its fate, the government feeling that they've 'done their bit'. The local drug dealers will rub there hands with glee at the prospect of the combination of quiet desperation and redundancy cheques. Now thats entrepreneurial capitalism at work!
.
keep posting, keep deleting 😳
very stong feelings about this but with family directly involved best to keep quiet!
I think your contribution will probably be better informed than ours.
Tell us what you think ferrals
So as PT closes and the local businesses go down like dominoes, and all thats left on the high street is bookies and pound shops,
You forgot the chemists. Lots of chemists. Methadone doesn't hand itself out you know.
We have 4 Lloyds Pharmacies within 500 yards of each other.
the point is making is not a critical industry. Its a low level, bottom of the technical/manufacturing food chain business.
Don't be ridiculous. I'm all for having an interconnected world, and unlike many lefties, can see some of the benefits of globalisation (not to mention the problems). But at a strategic level, if a nation is to ensure it's continuing existence, security, and standard of living, then there are some things it needs to be able to do by itself. Making steel is one of them. I'd argue it's a much more important strategic necessity than having nuclear weapons, and could be ensured for a lot less than is currently spent on Trident.
I suppose next you'll be telling us that we don't need to generate electricity ourselves, or collect and treat water, or grow our own food?
binners - MemberI think your contribution will probably be better informed than ours.
Tell us what you think ferrals
not [b][i]that[/i][/b] involved to actually know anything, just work at site.
Is the UK legally allowed to subsidise UK steel production?
Port Talbot and round to Swansea Bay is a jaw droppingly beautiful place, or rather if the assorted industrial plant wasn't there it would be. As a post indstrial location it could be spectacular. A huge amount of vision would be necessary to transform it though, and I don't think we have that vision.
Err, we already can't grow enough food for ourselves.
I didn't say we grew all of it, but we grow an awful lot. Are you suggesting that we don't need to grow any food ourselves?
Are you suggesting that we don't need to grow any food ourselves?
Not once the new Port Talbot Soylent Green manufacturing facility is up and running.
Are you sure it was Dave, Binns? After earlier post, I decided to catch the bit of Newsnight I missed last night. No Times journalist on the programme and missed the comments that you quoted. Hmmmm.....a trend is appearing here 😉
Dear old Vince was a bit vague - steel is no longer strategic but I would be disappointed to see it disappear (v helpful Vince, thank you) and the lady academic who referred to Mr Tata. Odd that an academic who is an expert in the field doesn't know who runs Tata these days. Poor old Newsnight is a shadow of its former self
Err, we already can't grow enough food for ourselves.
Are you suggesting that we don't need to grow any food ourselves?
No.
No.
So what exactly was your point in the context of needing to protect strategic industries?