[Closed] British steel- I'm being abit thick here. Please explain.

So what exactly was your point

My point was that "we already can't grow enough food for ourselves.".

PT will then be forgotten about, and abandoned to its fate, the government feeling that they've 'done their bit'. The local drug dealers will rub there hands with glee at the prospect of the combination of quiet desperation and redundancy cheques. Now thats entrepreneurial capitalism at work!

Depressingly accurate. And 'doing their bit' in Wales consists of the Government using public money to dole out massive 'development fund' payments to corporations, who will bugger off as soon as they're offered a better handout elsewhere.

My point was that "we already can't grow enough food for ourselves.".

So totally irrelevant to the subject at hand then. As long as we're clear 🙂

Phew, I think I skim read everything and no one mentioned the futility of the blast furnace and primary steel production.
There may be a route out of this, leave the primary making to the developing nations, India will soon be churning out steel cheaper than the Chinese, and concentrate on recycling, the future should be in electric arc and secondary steel production according to some learned folk:
[url= https://t.co/9rAFV2taJj ]Institute of Materials, say.[/url]
Trouble is the blast furnace is a major symbol and politicians love gathering around symbols for some halo effect in a "no bad news" sense.

So totally irrelevant to the subject at hand then. As long as we're clear

You keep leaping up the ladder of inference, why is it irrelevant?

It's interesting how quickly the lessons learned in WW1 & WW2 have been forgotten.

If Britain is going to continue its 300 year path as a warlike nation, it's inevitable we will be isolated and desperate for resources again, and if we don't have them on our shores, then defeat/surrender will be inevitable unless we use nuclear weapons.

An embargo would see us shrivel up and die.

@Jambalaya All the German plants I've visited point to a different reality - namely that they're good at defining and controlling a process so that they can make huge volumes of something with little variation, consistently and at high perceived quality. They also have better employment laws (for the workers) and seemingly employers that believe that "we're all in this together". Another key point is that again, IME, German factories get continual and substantial reinvestment in equipment and in employee training to maintain their competitiveness.

not forgetting other lessons not learned...

...how do we let regions become so economically and socially dependent on industries in which we have no natural competitive advantage and in which we are marginal players (and price takers). It beggars belief - and yet where is the anger at those who are responsible.

Lets hope some real thought was given to the so-called recovery plan for all those concerned.

Very scary outlook for pensions (British Steel Pensions) - that could be a real nightmare if/when Tata walk away.

@veeduba yes agreed, my point is the Germans are better than us at manufacturing high end products so their steel industry is more central to their economy

@tmh I'm glad Cable looked the buffoon he really is. Total waste of space.

I'd much rather we where self sufficient in food and focused on farming than industries like steel production. All this talk of Nationalisation from Labour etc is laughable, its against EU rules.

Rubbish it is a critical industry in that if you want to build ships, cars, industrial plant etc you need stee

Well Vince was struggling a bit, true, but his basic point was valid - the need for a temporary solution that could/should involve state support - the problem was the lack of detail. Eagle was the same on the first night and Javed also looks lost (in more ways than one). Not a pretty sight all in all

I'd much rather we where self sufficient in food and focused on farming than industries like steel production.

So other than the fact that they mostly vote tory, what is it about the farming industry that makes them so important where the steel industry isn't? The reality of this is that Cameron, like most tories, measures himself against Thatcher. On that score, he's done the privatisation of key national industries/sectors, he's had a war or two, he's tried (unsuccessfully) to throw his weight about in Europe, and now he's determined to add the deliberate destruction of labour supporting working class communities. Sadly I doubt anything or anyone is going to get in his way.

[i] ....and now he's determined to add the deliberate destruction of labour supporting working class communities[/i]

Good grief! 😯

Good grief!

Spare us the mock outrage. I think we all know how this is going to end.

Why aren't the 'out' lot jumping up and down saying if we were out of Europe these pesky euro rules about national companies wouldn't count?

I'd also forgotten about what ids said the other week. How many Tory votes come out of pt?

The reality of this is that Cameron, like most tories [and Blair], measures himself against Thatcher. On that score...

[b]he's done the privatisation of key national industries/sectors[/b] - ? really - the threshold must have been low, if that's considered a success???

[b]he's had a war or two,[/b] - ? seems pretty unsuccessful re Syria etc

[b]he's tried (unsuccessfully) to throw his weight about in Europe [/b]- actually a bit better there if not up to Maggie's rebate

[b]and now he's determined to add the deliberate destruction of labour supporting working class communities. [/b] - like Maggie he must have mystical evil powers to pull that one off

So hyperbole apart - what his score? 1/10 or is that a bit harsh?

Binners keeps whining about London People (as always). If they're so useless, why is it that no-one wants to live in the provinces and you provincial people can't keep your own industries going? It's an Indian owned steel company that doesn't have any significant footprint in London.

o other than the fact that they mostly vote tory, what is it about the farming industry that makes them so important where the steel industry isn't?

Well you could look at global population growth against the limited size of the arable belt and come to a conclusion that there is going to be a worsening issue for food supply?

Or you could take steel where there is a colossal global oversupply in significantly lower cost regions that looks set to continue for the long term.

You have a steel shortage, things don't get built. You have a food shortage then people starve. The government can't impose import tariffs on cheap steel from overseas to protect our industry. Even if they did then the knock on effect through the speciality manufacturing businesses which have more of a future than those that produce the basic material would, potentially, have an equal or greater impact on the economic health of the nation.

Whoever is calling for this to be nationalised is bonkers, despite the unfortunately devastating consequences for those affected. It's a dead industry in the UK with no rational reason to preserve it.

[i]@Jambalaya All the German plants I've visited point to a different reality - namely that they're good at defining and controlling a process so that they can make huge volumes of something with little variation, consistently and at high perceived quality. They also have better employment laws (for the workers) and seemingly employers that believe that "we're all in this together". Another key point is that again, IME, German factories get continual and substantial reinvestment in equipment and in employee training to maintain their competitiveness.[/i]

+1

A few years ago I worked for a British cement/concrete/aggregate company which had plants all across Europe, but as it was run as a bit of a 'federation' HO left decisions at a local level. The investment 'allowed' in Germany was quite amazing compared to that allowed here, along with the Management approach. Very much run at a local cultural level, no idea now that the Mexicans are in charge.

Binners keeps whining about London People (as always).

Who are these 'London People' I'm whinging about then? All of them? The blokes? The black ons? Or just the ones called Colin?

I'm whinging (chippy northerners eh?) about an uber-centralised London-centric system of government that nowadays barely even bothers to pretend to give a shit about anything that happens outside the South East

And no.... saying 'Northern Powerhouse' once every couple of months is about as credible as the 'We're all in it together' or 'Big Society' phrases we used to hear, until they became so patently laughable, and utterly devoid of substance, that they were quietly dropped.

The whole Northern Powerhouse cobblers is totally vacuous, and is just an exercise in blame-storming for the slashing of budgets to northern councils thats about to happen (it wasn't me who closed down all your local services, it was them!).

Still... its nice to get a mention every once in a while and know we're in Georges thoughts from time to time. I doubt we'll be hearing any of them mention Port Talbot ever again, after this weekend

*doffs cap*

A Jambaquote

@oldman farming is in a major crises flooded with cheap EU imports

I know of one "farmer" who has just invested 6 million quid, crops 7000 acres gets a million a year subsidy and is making a fortune. Cares not one jot about the environment or the long term sustainability of the land he is cultivating.

If you had said there is a crisis in the dairy and pork industry you would be right but as usual you paint everything in huge brush strokes. If you want to be taken seriously wise up and get your facts straight.

Who are these 'London People' I'm whinging about then? All of them? The blokes? The black ons? Or just the ones called Colin?

Ooooh! Colin! I can't stand that guy.
To be honest he's the only reason I haven't sold my reasonably priced mansion and moved to that London. How very provincial of me.

You are not an Urban Jungle cat, I don't think.

7000 acres

isn't the average farm size in England about 150 acres ie that's a pretty 'kin big commercial farm and probably in the minority.

Are you sure it was Dave, Binns? After earlier post, I decided to catch the bit of Newsnight I missed last night. No Times journalist on the programme and missed the comments that you quoted. Hmmmm.....a trend is appearing here

yes it was, David Cameron had a pre-prepared Q&A on the radio this morning, he said he didn't rule anything out but that in his opinion nationalisation is not the long term solution to help British Steel.

Thanks PR - it was a joke BTW!! 😉

If steelmaking in the UK disappears completely, we will have a bit of a puzzle as to what to do with scrap.

Legitimate businesses - the ones making the "clever stuff" posters keep banging on about - will possibly have to pay to shift the stuff. Certainly it will create environmental problems because it will have to be exported for recycling.

I can see other potential environmental and nuisance issues with regard to the abandonment of scrap.

Isn't most scrap sent to China anyway? Shipping is dirt cheap because all the containers are going back empty.

northerners eh?) about an uber-centralised London-centric system of government that nowadays barely even bothers to pretend to give a shit about anything that happens outside blah blah blah

Thanks PR - it was a joke BTW!!

I've read it again. it was very cleverly disguised. 😕

that nowadays barely even bothers to pretend to give a shit about anything that happens outside the South East

Given past and likely future voting patterns, that would be very odd behaviour for any politician.

despite the unfortunately devastating consequences for those affected.

Do you even realise what that means? We're not talking about everyone getting a nice redundancy package and then tootling off to a new job after having a bit of a holiday. If you're interested go and have a look round some ex-pit villages or towns where the majority of the population are addicted to alcholol/drugs and have been on benefits for 20 years, and where any semblance of community cohesiveness is a distant memory.

Do you even realise what that means?

No.....they don't realise.

It's a provincial issue for provincial people.

I know of one "farmer" who has just invested 6 million quid, crops 7000 acres gets a million a year subsidy and is making a fortune. Cares not one jot about the environment or the long term sustainability of the land he is cultivating.

very unrepresentative and completely meaningless example, like using Tesco as an example of a shopkeeper, and I bet if this person were real they'd probably be taking full advantage of all agri-environment schemes.

Ha ha which scheme would that be, he doesn't need to be part of any stewardship schemes, has had a heated discussion with his CSF man about tearing out hedges.

Jambawomble said all farming was in dire straights, it isn't.

Idk how you're whining about a London-centric anything when the company that failed is a bunch of provincial factories owned by Indians and failing to make products that can be sold on the world market. London didn't come into its failure one way or the other.

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Given past and likely future voting patterns, that would be very odd behaviour for any politician.

I do sometimes wonder if I actually live in the same country as some people on here. The Tory party has never given a rats arse about anywhere outside the south east*. Ask anyone who lived through the last round of industrial decimation in the 80's. They actively enjoyed that! It was an act of vindictive political vandalism.

But now, with Scotland gone entirely nationalist, the Lib Dems extinct, UKIP dividing the white working class vote in the former Labour Heartlands,, Labour itself an unelectable, faction-riven shambles, and the Tories proposed boundary changes/Gerrymandering designed entirely to deliver fewer non-Tory MP's, we're seriously staring down the barrel of a permanent Tory hegemony

I can't think of a time when they've been less inclined to care less about what happens to the likse of Port Talbot. And they never bothered much to even pretend that they ever did. God help us!

* apart from the odd outpost in Cheshire and Yorkshire

Well we can agree to disagree - voting stats are pretty clear IMO though

History tells us that ideas of political hegemony are quickly squashed. The Tories are doing there usual trick over Europe and are well versed at screwing up power (as are Labour)

Fair point. The masterplan was spoiled a bit now Dave has to deliver the referendum he never wanted, or ever thought he'd have to produce. And before the self-serving mop declared himself in the other camp, in a bid to nick his job

But it kind of proves the point as well. What do you think the Tory party is presently more concerned about? 40,000 jobs about to be lost in areas they couldn't ever really give a toss about. Or having their long trailed bunfight with each other about Europe?

I'd say the 40,000 steelworkers jobs have barely even registered with most of them. And I don't think anyone in Port Talbot, or anywhere thats been at the receiving end of Tory 'Industrial Policy' in the past, will believe the government are going to do a bloody thing to help them. That speech, complete with concerned furrowed brow, was made purely for consumption by South East Daily Mail readers, to make it look like they were taking the issue seriously. Does anybody believe they're actually going to do anything? Is anyone that gullible?

Port Talbot will be left to rot, like all the communities reliant on former mines, steelworks, and heavy industry that were decimated in the 80's. Back then there was the odd token gesture or crocodile tears by the like of Heseltine. I can't see this lot even bothering with that!

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/cameron-assumes-steel-workers-just-become-male-strippers-20160331107633

I don't know - I am not that bothered about the Tories. As discussed before, I find that they (politicians) have little impact on my situation.

PT [b]is very different however [/b]and I hope that they have a plan - not looking good so far, as no one seems to be coming up with much detail other than some sepia-tinged nostalgia for the industry. The people involved directly and indirectly need a lot more than the platitudes that have been served up so far by all politicians. Like you, I fear the worst. A very grim future indeed.

History tells us that ideas of political hegemony are quickly squashed.

This. A few months before the General election I was certain an SNP/Labour coalition was a mathematical certainty at a time when the economy was likely to pick up and therefore the Tory party were literally finished for at least a decade.

Now it looks like Labour are finished.

But the Tories economic policy is ****ed because of the crisis over the Budget and they could fall apart over Europe.

You just can't tell.

The one thing hardly any seems to be factoring in to the public view of Government response is that whatever they say to the public / in the media forms part of a negotiation with Tata e.g.

"We'll nationalise it" - will result in Tata playing hardball in any negotiations - and any onward sale would almost certainly be a distressed sale likely forcing the government to provide even more incentives to the final purchaser.

"We don't believe in nationalising it" - potentially forces Tata to negotiate or make some contribution to facilitate a transition period.

etc.

As per usual, Jeremy Corbyn swanning over to Port Talbot and announcing to the world that the government should pony up £500m a year just weakens the negotiating position with Tata, not that these minor commercial considerations would even be on the outer edges of his political radar.

The Belgian government has just been forced by the EU to reverse a £200m plan to save a steel works there so the options available to the government here are likely to be similarly limited - and in the end come down to how long we want to spend £1.5m a day to sustain a business that will never be viable, or whether that money would be better spent facilitating a faster transition to the secondary steel market which others have referenced above.

[i]If[/i] the steel works isn't 'saved' to some extent and [i]if[/i] we do vote to leave Europe, I'm terrified at the thought of what will happen to S.Wales. So much employment is based on EU funding and Cameron has already statd he won't replicate that if we leave Europe. One or the other being a possibility is bad enough but having both hanging over our heads at once is incredibly depressing.

If you're interested go and have a look round some ex-pit villages or towns where the majority of the population are addicted to alcholol/drugs and have been on benefits for 20 years, and where any semblance of community cohesiveness is a distant memory.

I've seen those granite towns with nothing but a rugby club and a blockbusters and it's heartbreaking.

...but the alternative is to pay them and their descendants to do 'something' to keep them out of trouble forever. That's a great plan, but let's make the "something" a business with a future which has a hope of becoming self funding.

I said simply "farming" as overall farming is in crises.

We in the UK as citizens just don't do enough to buy-British and support our fellow citizens. As I said earlier STW is as a grpup very happy to buy online to save 1p (see earlier thread) rather than support the lbs. This attitude is pervasive but posters here think the government should act when they do not..

Coal. That's finished in many places in the world, carbon targets and encironmental concerns have done for it. Trying to score political points is daft, the miners made things worse for themselves with strikes in the 70's and resultant power cuts which eroded what public support they had. Add that to a major shift away from coal as a fuel and you have the current situation.

Jammers old chap... Speak for yourself. I think you're making a massive sweeping generalisation saying people don't support their LBS. I do. And so do an awful lot of people on here. As well as shopping local to support local business.

I'm self-employed and I live in a small town with a proper sense of community, where there is a massive amount of support for local business, tradesmen, and self-employed people. A proper network.

I just don't believe the cynical 'there is no alternative' neo-liberal bollocks, I'm afraid. And I'm far from alone. A lot of people have had enough of it!! And want an alternative

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