And if you follow that shit for brains ‘logic’ to its conclusion I guess you blow your own brains out at some point?
Metaphorically speaking, yes, which is what Brexit is.
‘Let’s see how you like THIS, ner ner ner ner’ Then shoot self, taking your family’s sanity and security along with you so leaving the mess for your kids to sort out/re-enact.
Suicide note says: ‘Dunkirk spirit. Don’t trust the EU*’
*also:
BBC
‘Climate Change‘ lies
Foreigners
Immigrants
Homosexuals
Shadowy Jewish Backers
Muslims
BLM
Etc
Etc etc etc, ie all the usual scapegoats
It’s not just your Daily Mail readers either. The most rabid Brexiteers I know are proper old school Corbyn-style socialists. Left wingers who absolutely loathe the EU.
Hence the collapse of the Red Wall - the disenfranchised left/traditional working class were a bigger factor probably than the raving right wing Nationlists
Hence the collapse of the Red Wall – the disenfranchised left/traditional working class were a bigger factor probably than the raving right wing Nationlists
It helps that they were covert racists all along.
Hence the collapse of the Red Wall – the disenfranchised left/traditional working class were a bigger factor probably than the raving right wing Nationlists
Not sure about that Tory voters much more likely to vote brexit than labour, as did the southeast (outside London) than North
TRUTH BOMB:
https://twitter.com/colinelves/status/1309068001501683713?s=21
And this man is running our Brexit preparation…
https://twitter.com/propertyspot/status/1110452473037275136?s=21
https://twitter.com/peterstefanovi2/status/1223242446903091202?s=21
So, ignorant or liar (or both)?
What we voted for…
I have often wondered something about the possibility of applying to rejoin the EU. Set aside the prospect of the UK becoming a pariah, untrustowrthy state with an awful economy utterly corrupted by Russian oligarchs which the EU wouldn't touch for a moment. The EU, in my view, would likely insist in the UK adopting the Euro as its currency as part of any new membership. We are never rejoining are we?
No. Never.
And those who pushed back against a “measure twice, cut once” referendum before we went past the point of no return, in the name of “defending democracy”, owe the rest of us a big apology. If they did so now, rather than next year, they’s find we’d accept it gracefully. Things might be too tense for that when reality starts to sink in next year.
Depends upon who you consider to be "we". I fully expect Scotland to be (at least on course) to be back in the EU in 3 years
The EU, in my view, would likely insist in the UK adopting the Euro as its currency as part of any new membership
Adopting the Euro is not mandatory for any new country joining the EU.
Scotland will rejoin after it’s independence, Norn Oirland will when it joins the south after unification, at which point the Welsh will probably think “* this!”, leaving a sorry, tragic little island with delusions of grandeur and a borked economy waving its little St George’s flags
* me! What a totally depressing prospect!
Sadly, I suspect that most of the comments are from real people (with real effluent between real ears)
Unfortunately, what can be often left out of the brexit equation is brexiters desire for revenge over those 'liberals', or metropolitan elites. This country can burn to the ground as far as they are concerned as long as it hurts the right people.
No. Never.
We will return. Don't you dare think otherwise.
What caused you to change your mind about the EU enough to think about rejoining, Shooterman? I don't know how you unltimately voted but you were less than happy with the EU:
shooterman
Free MemberA reluctant out.
I had previously been very pro – Europe but I do not like the direction it has gone in over the last 10 years. Very ideologically driven.
Posted 4 years ago
The UK would have to satify the conditions imposed on other states that have recently joined for example Croatia. The criteria are laid out in the Copenhagen agreement and if you read through you'll find the UK fails on many levels, it would't get in with the conditions on which it is leaving.
With my beret on I'd hope my government is willing to accept the UK back but under exactly the same conditions as members that have joined since the signing of the most recent treaties. And that after an observation period of say seven years.
I have often wondered something about the possibility of applying to rejoin the EU.
I think at this rate the EU won't want us back at all. We've shown ourselves to be a petty spiteful little nation, incapable of playing with the adults, it turns out that the EU is coping quite happily without us thanks very much. At this stage, I imagine asking to rejoin the club, they'd look at us like the teenager that's come to a dinner party, got smashed, left claiming it was all shit, thrown up over himself and is then standing at the door asking to be let back in cos he's lonely.
I mean, even when we were members we sent them the likes of Farage, Ann Widdecombe and Annunziata Rees-Mogg as MEPs; the EU probably had a massive party when that lot left the building!
Agree with TJ.
Edit: And Binners!
Edit: And Crazy-Legs.
I fully expect Scotland to be (at least on course) to be back in the EU in 3 years
I'm trying to work out if our ****ed economy will prevent or hasten both Scottish independence and European re-accession.
Countries have done far worse and been welcomed back into the European fold. Germany was one of the founding states of the iron and steel union in 1952, just 7 years after the end of somewhat more extreme hostility than the current barnier.
At least The Mash made me smile today:
@Edukator at that time it was a very emotionally driven conclusion. My wife and I both went through surgery in 2015. During my wife's surgery, which was more severe than mine, I waited in the foyer of the hospital as she was on the operating table. For almost an hour not a single person speaking English walked past me. My wife's surgery was gynae and one of the staff told us "local" women in labour were being turned away as the delivery suite was full of non indigenous patients.
I was angry for a while about the pressure being put on the NHS and other public services but then used my brain and realised this was national policy of knowing EU membership was expanding but not resourcing public services adequately to cope with increased immigration. The "ideology" as I saw it was continuous expansion as an end in itself with little thought to the consequences for the citizens of individual states.
I guess I went from a reluctant out to a reluctant in and then saw the whole Brexit project as a Trojan horse.
JFCC, I'm pleased you changed your mind!
What has underfunding the NHS got to do with the EU?
What has one xenophobic hospital worker got to do with the EU? (don't forget what all doctors sign up to with regard to discrimination when they join the profession in these parts at least)
How did the "ideology" manifest itself? The treaties are very clear and members signed them.
As for not single English speaking person walking past, if they weren't speaking to you why was that a problem for you? I assume all the people were either doing a necessary job or in need of mediacl treatment.
You have looked at the actual stats for the numbers of EU nationals resident in the UK in percentage terms haven't you?
shooterman
Free MemberThe EU, in my view, would likely insist in the UK adopting the Euro as its currency as part of any new membership.
This came up a lot in the scottish indyref and quite simply, no. Not only does the EU not require it, and the ascension criteria not require it, there's absolutely no way to enforce it (since all you have to do to avoid taking the euro, is fail to meet the convergence criteria). There are countries that wanted the euro that have been prevented from taking it, and there are countries that have openly said they won't adopt it and received the eu's blessing.
Basically the only way you can think it'll happen, is if you don't know how it works. Which is fair enough, why would most people want to know that? Except that this is how you end up with brexits.
@Edukator you're tilting at windmills with me. I resolved those questions in my own mind sufficiently to vote remain.
I guess I went from a reluctant out to a reluctant in and then saw the whole Brexit project as a Trojan horse.
You give me hope.
What has underfunding the NHS got to do with the EU?
When people put the NHS logo on their bus and adverts, and other people are whispering in your ear about it the referendum being about ‘doing right’ by the NHS… and the papers are banging on about the “International Health Service”… millions fell for it. Cummings himself said it’s what got the Leave Vote over the line. No point arguing with someone who listened to the big and ubiquitous lie four years ago… it really isn’t their fault. Anyone who has seen through the con since needs welcoming.
If the remnants of the UK might struggle to meet EU criteria to rejoin, I'm not sure an independent Scotland would either?
Let’s not do this again… Scotland can operate outside the UK, and rejoin the EU, if they want. They are looking more and more like a Nordic state chained to us as each day passes.
I don't know what tilting windmills means. My issue wasn't with the in or out vote just astonishment at the issues you raised that made you a reluctant out, I read your post outloud to Madame to check her reaction. Do I want to know why you became a "reluctant in" as opposed to just "in"? 😉
I live in NI. The town I live in saw the biggest increase in new residents from outside the UK and ROI between 2001 and 2011. + 1,139%. You can imagine the pressure that put on local services. It's largely down to the presence of a number of large food processing plants in the area. The same pattern repeated in other towns with large factories or agri food sectors.
I can imagine the struggle remain had with a lot of folks. At the time property was ridiculously overpriced as all new builds were being snapped up by investors to rent to workers from Poland / Lithuania / Latvia etc. It was an easy lie to sell to people that this was all the fault of the EU. Very easy to paint the EU as only benefitting property speculators and employers looking to pay low wages while everyone else suffered.
More than a little bit proud that our constituency voted by a majority of 10,000 to remain.
I don’t know what tilting windmills means.
You need to speak to Don
We're all a bit quixotic on here
Anyway surely some leavers must be thinking that a border round Kent was never mentioned on the bus & that maybe just maybe they've been sold a pup?
People don't do admitting they were wrong any more kimbers, they 'double down'.
+ 1,139%
A simple pecentage of EU migrants as a percentage of the whole poulation would be more informative and less sensationalist.
all the fault of the EU.
Suggests you think it was bad thing and yet your town benefitted from a highly productive low-paid workforce that enabled businesses to operate profitably to the benefit of both local and national economies whist the nations those workers left were deprived of some of their most youthful, mobile, motivated and hard working citizens. The UK didn't even have to pay for their education and will probably never care for them in old age.
Sorry, you typed your post while I was typing mine Edukator.
The point I was trying to make is that the area I lived in was exceptionally affected by immigration from Poland, the Baltic states, East Timor, Brazil and Portugal. It was a pretty massive influx over a short period of time. Public services were being pushed to breaking point and property was becoming unaffordable. It would be easy in that scenario to conclude EU membership was impacting you negatively as that influx was on foot of freedom of movement.
Edit. Mon Dieu you really could start an argument in an empty room!
Whilst on about windmills it looks like Bozo is maybe wanting more here (Scotland) Is he sure that is a wise move given wee nics rise in popularity
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54285497
We’re all a bit quixotic on here
<Gentle ripple of applause>
Any chance of a Catalan style unofficial independence vote in Scotland?
A simple pecentage of EU migrants as a percentage of the whole poulation would be more informative and less sensationalist.
10.4 % in 2011
Public services were being pushed to breaking point and property was becoming unaffordable.
The increase in population due migration from the EU is essential to this debate which you are calling an argument. You are making extremely strong anti-migration statements that I'm absultely certain aren't substantiated by simple facts.
Property in many places in the UK was becoming unaffordable for that period some with next to no migrant pressure, and public services were under pressure from an ageing population, and increasly unheealthy and obese population, budget constraints due to autserity and real term spendong cuts.
Non were the fault of the EU. On the contrary the UK had low unemployment and skills shortages which meant migrants were an ecomomic bonus that more than paid for itself, migrants were net contributors to the economy throughout the period.
EDit: thank you for the 10% figure. A 10% increase in population does not mean you don't hear an English speaker in a hospital for an hour because the hospital is overun with migrants. It means migrants are doing jobs in the hospital that wouldn't be filled without migrant workers.
The NHS is one of the British instutions that has benefitted most from EU migration.
Any chance of a Catalan style unofficial independence vote in Scotland?
Not under the current SNP leadership.
And the question of what is/isn't "official" has yet to be clarified in the courts.
Any chance of a Catalan style unofficial independence vote in Scotland?
Fraught with dangers the biggest of which is a boycott. All the unionist parties pledge a boycott. turnout drops dramatically from the previous one. It would not then confer legitimacy if yo uget say 80% yes on 40% turnout
Scotland can organise a non binding referendum ( like the brexit one!) without a section 30 order / westminster permission IIRC
Section 30 order has not been contested in court in any way so we do not know really if Scotland could organise an official binding referendum without Westminster permission. Legal opinion is divided but mainly on the side of "permission is needed.
I think the SNP will use the May holyrood elections as a defacto referendum. That then gives legitimacy to the demands assuming as looks likely a significant pro independence majority. If Westminster refuses a section 30 order and / or the courts rule against it then its a very interesting situation with some obvious parallels to Eritrea and Kosovo both of whom (IIRC) had a referendum without permission from the parent country that was deemed illegitimate by the parent country but was recognised by the UN resulting in both countries gaining independence
If Westminster atttempts to block a scottish referendum that is mandated by the Holyrood elections we do get into very interesting areas.
Deleted
Checking out some districts in NI I'm failing to find a place with a 10% population increase due to net EU migration for one year.
Can you point me to the relevant documents in here:
Stop trying to start an argument, he doesn't want to play, Edukator.
No Edokator - you are being unpleasant and trying to pick a fight. He has outlined his reasons and his conversion to another point of view. Let it drop.
that the area I lived in was exceptionally affected by immigration from Poland, the Baltic states, East Timor, Brazil and Portugal. It was a pretty massive influx over a short period of time. Public services were being pushed to breaking point
As a percentage of the population, there are more immigrants working in the NHS than there are using it. The net "exceptional affect [sic] by immigration" is that public services improve.
Public services at breaking point is a government failure. Blaming it on immigrants is an easy copout for them. Genuinely all it is- immigration fuels the economy and also provides workers for public services, services would be worse off without it not better. So it's just a matter of proper resourcing and localisation.
Cynics might think some governments don't like public services and are very happy to let them collapse as long as they don't have to take the blame.
Blaming it on immigrants is an easy copout for
thempatients.
Or less generously,
Blaming it on immigrants is an easy copout for
themracists.
