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I'm pretty sure when Exsee talks about know it alls he/she is referring to the middle classes or anyone who is lucky enough to have a secure salaried job or career. It's the whole precariat vs salariat debate. Or it's just plain old fashioned class war hatred of the bourgeoise, whatever he thinks that is.
Without wanting to support the schoolboy ranting, he has a point. We do live in a society where those who are comfortably off have forgotten those who aren't, and feel entitled to their position and delude themselves that it was due to their own hard work and aptitude. The mistake he makes though is to assume all these people are remainers.
The mistake he makes
I find your use of the singular very charitable.
Molgrips, an initial no deal is the only way the know-it-alls will get off their arses. Threaten their bubbles and they will wake from the Thatcher trance. The fight will then begin for a fairer progressive society.
A bozzer deal will be terrible long term, just enough to keep the know-it-alls in line, they will slope off into the ether, signing e petitions, posting for hundreds of hours on websites, frothing about equality while doing sweet fa about it.
There is no way of real change without getting the know-it-alls involved in society, I would love to tell you it's possible without pain, sacrifice and suffering but history would call me a liar. Why don't they act now when they know-it-all already? Why so apathetic?
Thatchers dream fed them just enough carrot, they think their better than the little people, they've sold their souls but believe that if they tick the right moral box come election time, they can just wash their hands of any responsibility to society.
I'm feeling really angry so forgive my ranting, these threads need some truth and the know-it-alls are busy pointing fingers at everyone but themselves. Shameful. Will pop back later if time allows👍
So Johnson has
Withdrawn IMB
Agreed to customs checks going to NI & having EU inspectors based in UK
Agreed on LPF 'ractchet clauses' (renamed to 'evolution mechanism' which gets round brexiteer MPs coz dont believe in evolution)
Agreed to allow foreign companies to own UK fishing boats
Just quotas to go & EU victory complete?
Farages head is going to explode!
So Johnson has
Withdrawn IMB
Agreed to customs checks going to NI & having EU inspectors based in UK
Agreed on LPF ‘ractchet clauses’ (renamed to ‘evolution mechanism’ which gets round brexiteer MPs coz dont believe in evolution)
Agreed to allow foreign companies to own UK fishing boats
Just quotas to go & EU victory complete?Farages head is going to explode!
at this rate we'll be in schengen with the euro by the end of the week.
We do live in a society where those who are comfortably off have forgotten those who aren’t
That's lovely. Does it answer why both Brexit, and the Tory rule built on the back of it, rely on the votes and vocal support of those not comfortably off? It's a conundrum... we mustn't get angry with people living hand to mouth who voted for Brexit and Johnson's New Conservatives (and the BNP and UKIP before)... but we must get angry with those who are more comfortably employed who voted against all this. All the while ignoring those making the big money off the back of removing rights from us all, while making us all poorer, and offshoring what they gain as they abdicate all responsibility towards their fellow Brits. Slow handclap.
I’ve never seen exsee and ckewkw in the same room. Makes you think.
Hitler seems shy of sharing a podium with them to. And that Cozy Enoch Powell.
Exsee, it’ll fail. The revolution will as it always does, devour itself. Don’t delude yourself to think this time will be different. It will cause pain for those at the bottom and middle. Those at the top might change but it’ll carry on. Victory gin for the proles.
Agreed to allow foreign companies to own UK fishing boats
Well... that one was a very jolly ruse... ask for something you don't want in the final weeks of the negotiation, just so you can concede on it.
We do live in a society where those who are comfortably off have forgotten those who aren’t, and feel entitled to their position and delude themselves that it was due to their own hard work and aptitude.
There's something in that, I think: people tend not to notice when they're swimming with the tide. I'm white, male, was brought up in a stable home, and my parents encouraged me to go to university. These factors surely helped me in my career.
Of course there is something in that. But people who have swum in that tide are more likely to vote for, and campaign for, and act towards, changing our system to try and readdress the imbalances at the heart of it. That's the conundrum... right wing change and governance depends on the support of the "have nots", not the "know-it-alls". It has been true throughout history... and it is true now in England. The political coming together of the Eton boys and those let down most by the system they perpetuate is an ongoing English disease that often rises to the top... and it has again.
Who mentioned "Flexibility"..?
From PMQs:
Sharon Hodgson (Lab) says Centrica gas engineers in her constituency were told to sign new contracts or risk losing their jobs. She asks Johnson to condemn “fire and rehire” tactics.
Johnson says workers should be treated with respect. He agrees with Hodgson in that respect, he says. But he says he also sees the advantages of having a flexible labour market. He wants to continue with that, he says.
Given free reign, most companies love flexibility.
Trouble is, it's a one way deal. Our staff demand the same it's totally undeliverable of course and will cost jobs.
I am white came from an unstable home and told to get a job at 16 and put some money on the table, in later life my parents could never understand why i was going to night school to get my HNC then HND or why i was going to Uni on day release to get my Engineering Degree when i had a good job.
Then when o swt my own business up they thought i was getting above my station.
There is so much educational opportunity in the UK.
And people who have swum in that tide are more likely to vote for, and campaign for, and act towards, changing our system to try and readdress that balance.
Are they? The evidence of the past 20 years shows that the middle classes resist any real attempt to change the system in favour of working people, even though it would also benefit them, becaue they don't see themselves as needing the protections and benefits which those at the bottom do. Its pure self-interest and entitlement, with a healthy dose of snobbery for good measure.
Are they?
Yes. People just like Ransos... who went through University, are for less likely to vote Tory, or to have voted for Brexit, and far more likely to support changing our system to deal with inequalities, than those who have not had the benefit. Of course, the idea is regularly put about that they do so to protect their position... but the "evidence" is clear... a university education means you are far more likely to support policy and change that would benefit those with less advantage... and far less likely to support policy and change that would further damage the lives of those with less advantage.
As this is the Brexit thread... how did people say they voted, split by level of education obtained...? Who will be hit hardest by the effects of Brexit, split by level of education obtained?
Are they? The evidence of the past 20 years shows that the middle classes resist any real attempt to change the system in favour of working people, even though it would also benefit them, becaue they don’t see themselves as needing the protections and benefits which those at the bottom do. Its pure self-interest and entitlement, with a healthy dose of snobbery for good measure.
Hmm, so I should've voted Tory for the last +30 years - who knew...
We are archetypal middle class, we tick every middle class box and then some, and so did both sets of parents. Probably why all of us have always supported Labour/SNP and voted Remain.
But people who have swum in that tide are more likely to vote for, and campaign for, and act towards, changing our system to try and readdress the imbalances at the heart of it.
The people who are swimming with the tide are far more likely to be the owners of the system, perpetuating its inequalities. Someone like me - working class parents and the first in my family to go to university - has had advantages at a personal level, but at a societal level? A single vote in a safe constituency, just like most other people.
The evidence of the past 20 years shows that the middle classes resist any real attempt to change the system in favour of working people, even though it would also benefit them
yet it was apparently the red wall labour voters that voted Tory and all us middle class remoaners who voted (reluctantly) for corbyn......
go figure!
Who mentioned “Flexibility”..?
From PMQs:
Sharon Hodgson (Lab) says Centrica gas engineers in her constituency were told to sign new contracts or risk losing their jobs. She asks Johnson to condemn “fire and rehire” tactics.
Johnson says workers should be treated with respect. He agrees with Hodgson in that respect, he says. But he says he also sees the advantages of having a flexible labour market. He wants to continue with that, he says.
It was me and 'flexibility' is the new buzzword.
Of course that flexibility is a one way street. In the same way that the cynical arseholes who say zero hours contracts can offer greater 'flexibility' to an individual employee. And so they can. If that employee is in a financially secure enough position to be able choose when to work. The other 99.999% of gig economy employees not so much.
Molgrips, an initial no deal is the only way the know-it-alls will get off their arses. Threaten their bubbles and they will wake from the Thatcher trance.
I'm not sure what this means. Who are the know-it-alls? Us, on this thread? We're not Thatcherites. Most people here are arguing for equality and opportunities for the less well off. I certainly am.
There's a significant section of society that's educated, middle class and left wing. They are strongly represented on STW.
Well, it looks like UK FaceBook users may have to get used to a reduced level of privacy and accountability in how their data is used: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55328376
I mean, FaceBook can already do a lot with your personal information, but at least you can currently call on the EU legislation to assist in keeping them in line. Probably not for much longer
agree about flexibility its why business liked FOM & the government didnt want to impose the controls they could have on migrant workers from EU
It wasnt about cheap labour, it was about flexible labour, that doesnt go home when the job finishes, they are ready for the next one straight away
Its why post brexit, immigration wont go down- will have to go up if we are to try & rebuild the economy!
There is no way of real change without getting the know-it-alls involved in society, I would love to tell you it’s possible without pain, sacrifice and suffering but history would call me a liar. Why don’t they act now when they know-it-all already? Why so apathetic?
Thatchers dream fed them just enough carrot, they think their better than the little people, they’ve sold their souls but believe that if they tick the right moral box come election time, they can just wash their hands of any responsibility to society.
This just comes across as a Lexiteer fantasy.
We don't need pain and sacrifice.
There is no need for manning the barricades or revolution.
All of this nonsense, this exercise in national self-harm, was completely avoidable. Enough people just had to "tick the right moral box" and it would never have happened.
People who genuinely believe that we'll somehow usher in a new more equal society off the back of Brexit disruption are the right wing's useful idiots. This entire project is a hard right wet dream. A No Deal would see an avalanche of deregulation and removal of rights. It benefits nothing except capitol interests.
The whole "radical change" idea is nonsense, its perfectly possible and absolutely preferable to run a progressive left of centre democracy without having to "Smash the system" every 30 years, just ask half the countries in Europe
The whole “radical change” idea is nonsense, its perfectly possible and absolutely preferable to run a progressive left of centre democracy without having to “Smash the system” every 30 years, just ask half the countries in Europe
👏👏
👏👏👏
without having to “Smash the system”
Who's talking about smashing the system? This is where you fall into binners' fantasy world and assume that anyone who wants to take an objective approach to solving society's problems is a 6th form revolutionary. No one's talking about getting rid of capitalism, replacing democracy or forcing everyone to be peace loving hippies. All we're asking is that when an established approach has failed, we try something else. Neoliberalism by any measure has failed on the basic goals of delivering a sustainable economy, combating climate change, tackling poverty and providing equal opportunities to everyone to improve their own lives. Is it really then so radical to suggest that we try something else?
Who’s talking about smashing the system?
The poster calling for No Deal, because a deal limits the damage. Proposing new ways of doing things is the way forward. Calling for the most damaging form of Brexit, to get “big change”, without suggesting what the change they want to see is, or positing anything beyond “shaking up the know-it-alls”… …is unlikely to result in change for the better… or do you think otherwise?
The poster calling for No Deal
I wasn't aware anyone was taking any notice of him? In any case I've said before that anyone coming from that point of view isn't doing so out of hope that things will get better, more from a nihilstic and spiteful view of bringing everyone down to the same level. If you're at the bottom of the pile with no hope of moving up that's a fairly understandable position.
exsee
Free MemberI feel energised again
Oh dear
Have you got all this saved on a notepad file daz? I hope so because otherwise it must be very labor intensive writing it on every thread you post on.
it must be very labor intensive writing it on every thread you post on.
What can I say, it's like a reflex action whenever anyone comes out with the usual centrist nonsense about finding the answers by repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum.
looks like we really are taking back control....
looks like we really are taking back control….
Brexit backers Tate & Lyle set to gain £73m
That's David Davis job done then. The man who looked like he was deliberately failing to get a deal with the EU when "Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union", and who's previous role before becoming an MP was... "Senior executive at sugar giant Tate and Lyle".
Of course, if you doing crop rotation in a UK climate... beet is one of the few things you can could plant and harvest... British Sugar is going to be killed by this.
What can I say, it’s like a reflex action whenever anyone comes out with the usual centrist nonsense about finding the answers by repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum.
Did somone offer some ideas on how things may be changed? I must have missed it.
I wasn’t aware anyone was taking any notice of him?
Read the thread. They were being replied to in the post. Some of us are up for much needed change... but just wanting "big change", rather than saying what should change, and how that can improve people's lives... is just howling at the wind. And any "big change" that can only come about as a result of No Deal... the kind of thing that even a narrow deal with the EU prevents... well... that's the kind of change it's dangerous to wish for, don't you think?
Who’s talking about smashing the system?
I wasn’t aware anyone was taking any notice of him?
Ah....
The 'Being Obtuse' technique again...
🥱
That’s David Davis job done then. The man who looked like he was deliberately failing to get a deal with the EU when “Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union”, and who’s previous role before becoming an MP was… “Senior executive at sugar giant Tate and Lyle”.
Of course, if you doing crop rotation in a UK climate… beet is one of the few things you cancould plant and harvest… British Sugar is going to be killed by this.
Surely not a 'jobs for the boys scam' using Brexit as the vehicle?
Well, I'll be darned.
Still, when the revolution comes we'll get it all back, eh?
🙈
Yeah, Johnson folded
Cross everything… and hope he doesn’t row back on what he’s said to the EU after he meets with his ministers, MPs and backers…
Yeah, Johnson folded
If that is the case it genuinely vexes me whether I am going to enjoy watching the lying shit getting ripped to shreds by the ERG nutters.
I mean, nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing Johnson reduced (even more) to a waffling, gibbering wreck in front of the loons, but that would mean partially cheering the loons on....
I wonder if Graham Brady is readying the revolver and bottle of scotch for De Pfeffel.
And he's going to be bounced into tightening the restrictions on the Christmas free for all relaxation of covid restrictions over the next couple of days too.
There is one thing he truly excels at, even more than lying*, and that is looking like an utter pillock.
*By this I mean the mere act of mouthing untruths constantly. Not anything sophisticated like actually getting away with it.
More details here, still some movement fishing but its coming
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1339236068177088512
swivel-eyed brexies getting ready to throw their toys out too....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/16/government-masterminding-sell-out-brussels-brexiteers/
From the guy at @ CNN that follows this closely…
https://twitter.com/lukemcgee/status/1339251483766910980?s=21
Who knows… 🤷🏻♂️
Who knows… 🤷🏻♂️
Not even Johnson. And he'll probably change his tune depending on the audience, as usual.
Lying, cowardly shyster.
A proper reporter gives us a complete thread, rather than a one liner…
https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1339236068177088512?s=21
[ read the whole thread - likely current position, and where it might go, very clearly explained ]
I have no idea.
I'll let you into a secret. I'm not sure anyone knows. Least of all our politicians.
I fear we’ll be saying the same thing for months… if not years…
Surely the least worst option for both sides currently would be a 3 or 6 month extension of the talks and maintain the current status quo? Cite (probably reasonably legitimately by Brexit standards) Covid disruption etc I think all but the full on brexit mentalists would agree with that no? (Maybe I'm being naïve?!)
Otherwise we really are going to have empty shelves, full hospitals and national lockdown to savour at once on January 1st.
They need an agreement in principle to do so now… to satisfy both EU & EFTA treaties as well as avoid WTO hassle… I’m still putting a 10% likelihood on this being what happens, later this month. If Johnson wasn’t staring down the extreme end of his party (that put him where he is now) the likelihood would be much higher… buying more time to sort out details (that need time to be sorted out) is the most logical path now. But Johnson didn’t take control of the party, and country, with logic.
Not seen this mentioned yet - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55341970 from which:
While he said it was "extremely likely" that a full deal would be struck "before long", he emphasised that "tough compromises have to be made" on agricultural issues, for example.
'Each side has to get something out of it'
Asked about demands to adapt UK food standards on beef and chicken, as well as reforms to the way the NHS pays for US medicines, Mr Lighthizer said: "These negotiations are ongoing."You know, clearly, the US needs to get additional access to the agricultural market in the UK - that's an important part of it, each side has to get something out of it.
Looks like the bus will need to be bigger to get the farmers under there as well.
US standards, GMO, antibiotics, chlorine washing, etc etc. If you're rich it obviously won't be an issue, high end small scale production will still be around. Mass market, anything goes.
It doesn’t sound good this evening, does it… I’m sticking with 80% likelihood of no deal.
That sounds good to me Kelvin👍 time for real change is sooo close, the people will unite when bubbles get popped👊 like a phoenix from the ashes🦃
It's just too hard to tell now what is negotiation tactics and what is just an attempt to scupper the deal.
Johnson is posturing for his hardliners & hoping for a bit more give from the EU
A US trade deal would see UK farmers undercut, coupled with no deal brexit hitting manufacturing in those ex red wall seats, as exsee says the bubble would pop. And it would be the poorest who get thoroughly shafted as Mogg, Farage etc are laughing all the way to their tax havens...
The people won't be uniting, they will be too busy fighting for scraps
Johnson has an 80 seat majority
Labour will back a deal, no deal is madness & they know it
At worst there are 30-40 headbangers in the tory party
A lot of the tory new red wall MPs are in constituencies who would be hollowed out by a no deal brexit
Johnson will get a deal, with a few concessions he will trumpet it as a great victory
It'll be nothing of the sort, but he can claim job done & start the next round of endless negotiations
Exsee just what sort of community/background are you from? Just asking as my view of the working poor (my extended family and friends) is they are never ever going to man the barricades... or storm parliament. The most radical thing they will do is not vote at the next election.
Many watched (and some were involved,) when the Miners in the North East quite literally had the shit kicked out of them by Maggies finest when they stepped up.
Can anyone make sense of posts from exsee, king of the pointless emoji?
Posts read like they're written by someone who is learning how to communicate - but hasn't (yet) mastered that particular skill.
We are going to get the absolute slimmest wedge of a deal. I think that most of the population genuinely think it's all then done and dusted!
Of course the wrangling with the EU...the US and Lord knows what other countries will go on for years, decades in fact. All the st*t the EU has staff, leverage and experience at fall on our governments shoulders to "handle". What an absolute sh*t fest.
My single hope is that the Tories are absolutely routed in the next GE and that Labour can slowly rebuild a better relationship with the EU. I don't think we will rejoin in my lifetime which I am hugely saddened by.
Anyway, the damage is well and truly done and Labour government or not the UK (whilst it still exists) is going to be much diminished.
i think exsee is saying it's our fault. The squeezed middle that have been trying to up our chances while complaining and probably virtue signalling a bit too, about how badly treated the poorest in society have been / will be by this situation, while not actually doing a lot about it. And that unless there's a seismic event, this won't change.
There's more than a grain of truth there.
Still being a bit of a donald about the way they go about messaging it though.
Excsee is right. There's change coming and some people's lives are about to change.
Who's bubble and how positive or negative that is where I think we differ.
Those who are wealthy enough will do ok from brexit.
All the rest of us are about to see prices rise, standards fall, jobs lost and opportunities lost. For a good few years.
I'm not sure that's the price I wanted to pay so that in a few years we can crow about a recovery from EU membership, poor employment, environmental, food, etc rights and standards.
This thread is like a car crash....i cant stop looking at it even though its thoughly depressing. Any arguing on here shows how "they" got us to this point of hard brexit. Devide and conquer,
I wonder if Graham Brady is readying the revolver and bottle of scotch for De Pfeffel.
The best televised game of Russian roulette ever? A round in every chamber and I bet the dozy **** would still miss...
i think exsee is saying it’s our fault. The squeezed middle that have been trying to up our chances while complaining and probably virtue signalling a bit too, about how badly treated the poorest in society have been / will be by this situation, while not actually doing a lot about it. And that unless there’s a seismic event, this won’t change.
There’s more than a grain of truth there.
What, it's our fault that far too many voted to make their lives even harder?
Not sure who wind me up more, poor Tory voters or entitled pensioners wanting the ladder pulled up (they didn't want to pay their taxes when they worked, and now they expect us to keep them in a decent life while making it harder for us).
while not actually doing a lot about it
Or… while trying to do something about it, but being continually undermined by the retired well off and the struggling low paid joining together to keep old Etonians running the country.
So… what changes would be coming as a result of having No Deal that are going to improve the lives of any of us? If it really is just welcoming “levelling down”… then the horrible truth is that the floor will be lowered for those currently struggling at the bottom… we will all be hit… but as ever… the poorest will feel that hit the most keenly. Who welcomes that?
I hope that all the news about Johnson backing down on standards alignment etc that has been buried over the last few days means that when he announces a trivial ‘win’ on fishing the country can concentrate on fish and think we ‘won’ just long enough to get the deal signed.
Johnson isn’t negotiating with the EU. He asking them nicely to give him something he can shout about and stay quiet about all the stuff he capitulates on while playing along that he’s working hard to protect the UK.
What, it’s our fault that far too many voted to make their lives even harder?
In a way, yes. That's the contention, and I think there's a grain of truth. A lot of 'us' talked a good talk but didn't DO enough* about it and created the situation where 'anything' was seen as better than more of the same. Whether the preferred anything is achievable and whether that was honestly won or gained through lies and broken promises written on buses, is almost moot. 'We' didn't offer something better and DO enough to show that there was an alternative, from our comfy living rooms in mortgage nearly paid off houses. Don't tell me, SHOW ME.
* yes, Kelvin I agree - hard to achieve change in this system where the media is controlled, the opposition is seen is as toxic, the electoral process is skewed. Maybe exsee's right, no amount of 'convincing' by the chattering middle classes can win out against this, and maybe we do need to be sat down in front of this shit sandwich and made to eat every bit before people will believe (or admit) they've been misled.
He's still ****ing annoying though.
It’s just too hard to tell now what is negotiation tactics and what is just an attempt to scupper the deal.
No Deal is the inevitable final destination, I'm afraid. Always was. His backers demand it and are helped along by the useful idiots of the ERG.
All this at the moment is just a charade. He's doing the minimum he can get away with (the story of his life) to make it look like it wasn't going to be a no deal crash out all along. It was though. When it happens on January the 1st and the economy goes into toxic shock, remember that this lot have been planning this for over 20 years.
‘We’ didn’t offer something better and DO enough to show that there was an alternative,
I think we can pin a lot of that on the casual arrogance of David Cameron. In his mind, because the EU seemed like an obviously good idea, he assumed everyone else - or a majority at least - shared his opinion. He didn't think he needed to convince anyonne, so he never even tried.
Never did have his finger on the pulse of the nation, did he? Never had his finger on the pulse of anywhere outside Whitney or Notting Hill, really. He also massively underestimated how loathed he was and how many people would vote against ANYTHING that he represented
Say what you like about Tony Blair but he knew enough about the reality of this country to be adamant there would be no EU referendum while Labour was in power. He knew how it would end. Thats why I think he's allowed to legitimately chip in with comment, despite how much it annoys some people
The 'adults' are due along any moment now...
Sounds like the CBI are begging the EU to not introduce checks and be nice because hey aren’t ready. How much money have these companies given the Tory party over the years? Must really be wondering why they bothered.
In Windsor Davis voice:
The ‘adults’ are due along any moment now…
You make it sound like it's a "specialist club" for the "connoisseur"...
🙂
Maybe exsee’s right, no amount of ‘convincing’ by the chattering middle classes can win out against this, and maybe we do need to be sat down in front of this shit sandwich and made to eat every bit before people will believe (or admit) they’ve been misled.
In our post-truth world I think many will believe the issue is all the EU - if we hadn't been in their EU club for over 40 years, it wouldn't have been an issue, and they wouldn't have to eat the sh*t sandwich.
Without a doubt Matt, The EU will get blamed for everything, while plucky little Britain fights away like some kind of Commando war time comic character.
Some of these nitwits need to be fed some of that shit sandwich, even if they're completely ignorant as to who the chef was.
Mon tae **** Nicola, get us oot of here!!!
It doesn't look like anyone who's business depends on it believes theres going to be a deal, does it?
How the **** did we end up in this mess? With these idiots at the wheel, foot flat to the floor, careering towards the cliff
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1339851685666144258?s=20
Seems a lot of the "issues" with the EU were made up by unelected men* with big ideas being allowed to lobby, finance politics and flood the media with a "different truth".
Essentially perverting democracy.
We've learnt a lot though, and at least in this forum topic there's no unelected men* bullshitting advocating big ideas to ""solve the problem" "once and for all" and "by telling the truth" to "know it alls**".
* Other genders are available.
** As we say goodbye to 2020 and remember lost friends, such as satire, we are sad to learn that irony has also passed away in this most trying of years.
I think it's a capitulation and now Fatboy is stage managing with the help of his client journalists
https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1339859909165375489?s=19
I'm a bit bemused by the thought that it was "us" that caused this shitstorm - totally get that people want change, and that that's why we're leaving, but what could "we" have done further? There's a monster out there with money and power and a massive media influence, pouring honey down the ears of the masses it despises to get them to support measures that will do far more damage than good, and that monster is tenacious and very, very hungry. Logic doesn't defeat it, we've seen logic losing for the last five years - so, what else is there?