No Edokator – you are being unpleasant and trying to pick a fight. He has outlined his reasons and his conversion to another point of view. Let it drop.
That's insulting and an attempt at bullying, TJ. I know you don't like me, you've made it perfectly clear on every thread I've made a heartfelt contribution to recently. And who are you to order me around.
Try playing the ball not the man, Tj. The ball here is not "conversion" it's his attitude to imigration and migrants (which I am in case you'd forgotten, as an economic migrant and naturalised immigrant you'll forgive me for feeling personlly concerned and targetted). You are wel placed to know how much the NHS has benefitted from immigration and have raised the problems of recruitment in your own workplace in reelation to Brexit yourself.
I work for the public services. Immigrants very rarely use our service.
Try playing the ball not the man, Tj. The ball here is not “conversion” it’s his attitude to imigration and migrants
Suggest that ‘ball’ =/= person present? But fact and figures are useful for the thread. My Most Brexity Friend (not present) still believes that every problem with the NHS is caused by immigrants which in turn were caused by ‘lefties’. That is the sum total of his beliefs about the matter. He and I have had a long-running disagreement. He will go so far as to also believe that all data/statistics which conflict with his perception/opinion are easily passed off as ‘liberal propaganda’ from ‘lying leftie scum’. I kid you not.
I do not particularly dislike you Edukator. I very much dislike your bullying and hectoring which is what you are doing here.
You do pick fights - you have done it with me being very offensive. Perhaps its not what you intend but its very much how you come over much asd I have done and have tried to change
I am not ordering you. I am asking you. I should have added a please at the end which would have made that more clear and for that i apologise
Ding ding, seconds out, round 2.
In the red corner we have the edinburgh living, self identified sassenach...it's big TEEE JAAAY!
In the blue corner we have our french correspondent, never known to be wrong...it's disputatious big Ed, the self-proclaimed Edukator.
Join us later for round 3.
News! Hot off the press - big Ed has just issued an all-comers challenge!
Any subject, any time, any place!
🙂
I do think Edukator there is the missed nuance in text issue here.
As for the person you were attacking - he explained what he was feeling which cannot be wrong - thats what he felt. Thats a brave thing to do and leaves him open to attack
Again the way you posted and what I and others saw may not have been what you intended but it did appear to be picking a fight.
I intended my post as a plea you took it as an order which is poor writing from me
Perhaps ( a lesson I have tried to learn) looking for good and thinking about other interpretations might lead to less confrontation?
Immigration is of net benefit.
study after study shows immigrants work longer, harder and pay more to do so.
Larger working population equals more tax and a more vibrant economy
stretched public services is a function of ever decresing investment of GDP into looking after the people.
rightwing press blames immygrants.
it's not rocket surgery.
I think you have misconstrued my point Edukator or I have not articulated it very well.
Put another way, my initial position was an emotional response to direct lived experience. The initial reaction was to superficially blame the stress on the NHS on a sudden and dramatic increase in population caused by free movement. A bit of thought led me to conclude the real genesis of the problem was underfunding by the UK government.
I took issue with EU ideology as I felt they were dogmatically expanding without giving a great deal of thought to the resources being deployed by member states to large scale movement of people and the increased demands on resources.
In essence we agree membership of the EU is a good thing and I have no issue with immigration. I lived through the troubles in NI and I welcome a more multi cultural trend away from two violently opposing homogenous groups. I do have an issue with underfunding and austerity. Increasing the number of people competing for access to a resource and not increasing the availability of the resource is going to create problems. Those problems were, in my view, successfully exploited by the Leave campaign. The blame for that lies in the UK, not the EU.
I beleive the EU tried to instigate a minimum social spending, but the combined fury induced aneurysms and rectal prolapses in response of our wonderfully munificent country put paid to that.
All I'm reading from Shooterman's post is that sometimes under emotional stress it's easy to try and place blame and find a simple reason for situations not being as they should. And from that position, it can be pretty easy to be manipulated and pointed in the wrong direction. The country in general clearly has millions of disenfranchised people still, this is only likely to increase given the pandemic and immediate impact of Brexit. To move back in the right direction, the disenfranchised must have a purpose or must be led. Sadly, I cannot see either of those things happening this decade 🙁
RichPenny has it. It's all well and good flexing your intellect about macro economics etc but you are forgetting that a lot of people voted for Brexit as an emotional reaction to direct lived experience and identified the wrong target. To paraphrase Machiavelli, distraction is the essence of deception and we certainly have some political leaders who understand that thoroughly.
My own take is that Brexit has been manipulated into the grievance political issue for the UK in the same way race has in the US. It's the cow that can be milked almost endlessly. The Brexit campaign understood how to manipulate emotion.
Immigration is of net benefit.
study after study shows immigrants work longer, harder and pay more to do so.
Larger working population equals more tax and a more vibrant economy
My problem with that statement is that net benefit is exceptionally abstract to a lot of people. If I am working on a building site, and there is a group of people arriving who are prepared to work longer and harder for less money, am I seeing the impact as a more vibrant economy or as a threat to my immediate livelihood? Add the austerity measures on top and we all know where it leads.
If I am working on a building site, and there is a group of people arriving who are prepared to
work longer and harder for less money,not work cash in hand
Stop trying to start an argument, he doesn’t want to play, Edukator.
I've started treating this one with my 'chewkw filter'. See the username, and keep on scrolling until I get to someone else's post. It greatly increases my enjoyment of any thread graced by his/her presence.
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Richpenny raises an excellent point. If the current trend towards populism is to be interrupted, there needs to be less focus on abstract concepts and a little more empathy.
Frequent foreign holidays, third level education, international job mobility, pension pot values, access to foreign holiday homes etc are simply things that are not a feature of a lot of people's lives. My own pet theory is that's how we ended up with Brexit - there was a hubris among the educated and middle classes that no one could be stupid enough to vote for Brexit.
Trying to stay with the original theme of this thread it may be that after a period of time being out of the EU when these folks' lot has not improved they will deduce that their miseries had nothing to do with EU membership.
In more great Brexit news this morning, that sounds totally 'sunlit uplands', the supermarkets are saying in the event of 'No Deal' then the tariffs slapped on food will see a big rise in household bills.
Which with the economy in such great shape, and everyone feeling flush with optimism and awash with spare cash, is exactly what the country needs
I think shooterman had a valid point about the hubris of the middle class. As someone who is from a north east working class background and started work just as Thatcherism kicked in i watched my working class family deteriorating into the benefits class.
I decided a long time ago to educate, work, employ myself "out" of this and i have some 40 odd years later become probably upper middle class (hoo ****ing ray for me)
I still circulate in the world that was my roots, but i will point out that a lot of the folks i know (including family) are not bone idle but they do expect to be almost hand fed to some extent. I also realise that many folks who voted brexit in the Red Wall (lump of my family is from Blyth and Bedlington) will alwayd be the victims in politics, ecomomics and war.
So in summary these folks will pay the price again in brexit but they will continue to under write Boris's boys lifestyle. Sorry but it all rolls back to the elephant in the brexit room - people are poorly educated in the broader sense or thick if you want to be unkind.
In more great Brexit news this morning, that sounds totally ‘sunlit uplands’, the supermarkets are saying in the event of ‘No Deal’ then the tariffs slapped on food will see a big rise in household bills.
Was always going to be the case, meanwhile the brexies are saying things like 'give British trucks priority if there are delays, foreign hauliers will just have to buy more tractor units and trailers to make up for the ones stuck in the UK'.
The massive point they are totally missing is that hauliers will just double or triple the price to deliver goods to the UK, as a lorry that's parked is a lorry that's losing money - they simply won't swallow the cost of extended customs delays, and why should they?
Its a triple whammy when you think about it
The cost of imports of not just food, but everything, is going to increase massively
The costs of exporting to the continent are going to increase massively for UK businesses, thus becoming unviable.
We're going to have to pay for all this expensive and previously unnecessary customs infrastructure through taxation
Well done Brexiteers! You've played a blinder for Britain there
Mattyfez comments underline my view and people just simply dont even have the most basic grasp of how our world functions (this not an abstract view)
I am convinced that no matter how crap it gets people will accept what they are told and if they are told its "just the way it is" then they will soldier on.
You would literally have to starve these people, (i dont mean foodbank starvation) shut wetherspoons and turn off the power to get the dumb *ers to sit up and take notice.
I know that the Cummins of this world absolutely understand the limit of the great unwashed, as long as they are living in the same house tgey have always lived in, drinking the same amount of beer, eating the same amount of food they will tolerate any amount of shit and lack of opportunity- i know from my own family the extent of people's horizons.
I have had some of the most ironic things said to me by my brexit voting family and friends " my kids dont have the same opportunities as yours" yes they *ing do you chose to go to the pub rather than helping your kids with GCSE revision, you told your kids University was a waste time, yout told me that this exchange rate thing had nothing to do with the price of petrol... i could write pages of this.
The furlough scheme has "proved" to many that the gov is finally looking after them ffs
‘No Deal’ then the tariffs slapped on food will see a big rise in household bills.
I have to say the in general we in the UK have had it easy when it comes to the cost of necessary items such as food and utility costs.
I consider myself as being European in the sense that I embrace the wider culture exchange that goes on between the European community. I have lived over there and intend to go back once kids fly the roost. Now before someone chimes in and says I was born with silver spoon in my mouth, you'll be very wrong. My circumstances are the same as Oldmanmtb2 has said above.
In all my years of traveling backwards and forwards between the UK and the rest of Europe, one thing that became obvious to me is that we in the UK pay a great deal less for our food and in general the quality is lower. I see/saw that there are/were less supermarkets and more grocers, like in the UK you would expect to pay more and get better quality from a grocer.
Speaking to my wife's family who live in France, I am astounded at the cost living in France, their utility bills would make your eyes water and their weekly shop is almost double what I spend on ours.
Brexit will bring those pricing levels to the UK for sure further affecting those communities left behind. Those who thought voting Brexit would bring some sort of utopia for them. I'm afraid it will only get worse for them.
I don't blame them to be honest, the vote leave campaign was very well organised and the vote remain.... Well I can't even remember what they had to say..
The costs of exporting to the continent are going to increase massively for UK businesses, thus becoming unviable.
This is my biggest fear... If I were running the business I work for I'd be looking for premises in mainland Europe.
one thing that became obvious to me is that we in the UK pay a great deal less for our food and in general the quality is lower.
Totally agree with that. And it's about to get a damn sight worse. Imports of higher quality foods from Europe will go up in price considerably.
Meanwhile, a cheaper alternative will be available for the plebs. By jettisoning EU food and animal hygiene standards and signing a trade deal with the US, it'll open the floodgates for American Corporate Agribusiness with their chlorine-washed chicken, hormone injected beef and GM crops.
There will then be an even bigger divide between the middle classes nibbling their organic fairtrade olives and a working poor eating turkey twizzlers. To add insult to injury, the government who caused all this will then berate them for being obese
When I clicked Google on the phone this morning the first article proposed was;
https://fr.reuters.com/article/gb-brexit-france-idFRKCN26G0J2
The British government might be fooling enough of the British people to stay in power but they aren't fooling the people they're negotiating with.
The costs of exporting to the continent are going to increase massively for UK businesses, thus becoming unviable.
I'm from a farming background. A while ago I was looking at the figures for UK lamb production, sales and import/export. (Can't remember why now - I think it was to do with the government stating they'd buy up carcases and store them and there actually not being enough storage).
Very roughly UK lamb production is worth £1bn wholesale of which around a third is exported to Europe. We import some, a similar amount - around 30% of total consumption, from New Zealand but that's mainly because there's an increase in lamb consumption around Easter and our lambs aren't ready for slaughter then.
If, as is looking likely, we end up with no deal then lamb imports to Europe will have a tariff imposed. It's not as easy as saying X% since there's a certain volume that is allowed in tariff free but New Zealand uses up about 80% of that allowance about half of which comes to the UK so presumably will get reallocated to another country with an EU trade agreement. The current FTA tariff is just under 13%. The WTO tariff, which is being touted as a good thing remember, is between 40% & 90% depending on the exact product.
Since we won't be having an FTA then the UK's lamb exports will be subject to that minimum 40% tariff. Short term result? A glut of cheap lamb for maybe a year until the farmers have sold everything on and then reduced their flocks or gone out of business.
That's been clear from the start Edukator. Barnier in particular has impressed me refusing to buy the bullshine or fall into the big pits marked trap
Its adults v petulant children
A summary of that article would be handy tho Edukator
"That’s been clear from the start Edukator. Barnier in particular has impressed me refusing to buy the bullshine or fall into the big pits marked trap
Its adults v petulant children"
It's not really though is it? Or do you really believe that? What specifically is it about Barnier that has impressed you? Problem with this thread is that, entertaining as it is, it is one massive echo chamber
Barnier has been consistent. Has avoided rhetoric and cant and has exhibited patience in the face of utter nonsense from the UK government who will still not say what they want or produce written positions and who keep shifting the goalposts and posturing
The EU, and Barnier, have been very clear and concise from the start, about what can and can not happen/be agreed on. The UK on the other hand has swapped between signing agreements, and asking for the moon on a stick.
Instead of the "echo chamber" charge... lay out what you think the EU representatives and negotiators should have done differently... and... here's a bigger challenge... what the UK ones have got right... assuming their task really was/is to get a trade deal (and other essential agreements) in place before we lose all the current arrangements.
To be honest, one of the main issues that is being faced in the discussions at the moment is that the EU has got used to trying to be firm and watching the Theresa May era team cave in and make changes. Possibly an issue with her wanting to be in control and not listen to others (something she is apparently well known for) and possibly because she was a remainer at heart. The difference now is that the negotiating team are standing their ground and not backing down when the EU team were expecting them to.
From what I have read around the topic it seems that the Govt's decision to push for the recent legislative change is actually prudent preparation for the potential eventuality of a no deal when we would end up in a situation of the EU being in breach of international law. In a bigger way than the UK is. The fault is with the Withdrawal Agreement that, in fairness, both sides agreed. The biggest problem with it is that the UK Govt has made a complete hash of explaining what they are doing and why.
The biggest problem with it is that the UK Govt has made a complete hash of explaining what they are doing and why.
Quite the reverse of that is the case. What the UK Government actually are actually doing, and why, is to crash us out with no deal so that their disaster capitalist mates can make a killing on the positions they've already taken against the pound, then those right-wing headbangers in power can use the 'opportunity' created by the resulting chaos to tear up workers rights, environmental controls etc and privatise the NHS
For some bizarre reason, I can't imagine why, they're reluctant to actually come out and say so though.
They aren't making a hash of anything. This was always the plan and they've executed it pretty much perfectly. We're now at the endgame where they shift the blame for the impending catastrophe onto the EU.
From reading your post, it seems thats going well too
We've caught a big one.......
On NI its has always been impossible to have it out of the EU and no borders either on the island or ireland or in theIrish sea.
When what you want to happen is impossible you have to compromise. On NI Johnson decided to compromise on the Irish sea border - the only practical solution. he signed a treaty to this effect.
No not only does he want to renage on this he is gaslighting as to why. Its nothing to do with being prudent. its everything to do with being a unionist and not wanting a reunited irelans which is the end result of the border in the irish sea. The fact his is so dim and illprepared that he did not realise what the WI meant is his problem and his fault - not the EUs
You do realise that the UK keep on asking ythe EU for things that are impiossible under EU law?
The EU's position hasn't really changed hugely since 24th June 2016.
They've been pretty consistent. It became apparent immediately after the referendum result that it was an utterly stupid thing to do and would cause huge ructions down the line.
It is the UK's problem to resolve. That 'we' can't is because it was sold on the basis of a pack of lies.
The difference now is that the negotiating team are standing their ground and not backing down when the EU team were expecting them to.
You've taken the drugs. Waiting for the UK to come up with radical alternatives stopped long ago, and there is nothing new that can be proposed, agreed and implemented before the year is out. When we nuked the extension, we were telling the EU that we'd either go along with any agreements they propose, or go with no deal/minimal deal. A whole new 'comprehensive free trade deal' that also covers everything else that normally is well outside the remit of a normal FTA is not possible in the time left. We started too late, and set our own impossible to meet deadline to finish. An FTA+ agreement before we leave the SM&CM+ is now dead.
Businesses in Ireland, Holland and France were prepped (and subsidised) by their governments to be ready for no deal... LAST SUMMER. It is UK companies and public bodies that are left unprepared, and unable to prepare, for no deal. What help has your company had to be ready from the UK government... name me one thing... beyond being advertised at saying that they need to be ready? When do they get access to the government systems required in order to trade in the New Year? Isn't it currently March 2021 (and slipping all the time)? Why are the Irish, Dutch and French systems already available to their companies... how come they were testing them in the field LAST YEAR?
The fact his is so dim and ill prepared that he did not realise what the WI meant is his problem and his fault – not the EU.
Boris Johnson is neither dim nor ill-prepared, though it would suit him for everyone to think both those things true
What he most definitely is though is a scheming, untrustworthy liar. To that end he knew full well (and had apparently privately assured the ERG headbangers) when he signed that Withdrawal Agreement that he had no intention whatsoever of honouring it. He was always going to pull a stunt like the Internal Market Bill. It was just a case of when
He's always wanted No Deal*. That was always the final destination. And barring a miracle, thats what we're all going to get. Not by accident, but by design.
* Actually, he doesn't, personally. He doesn't believe in Brexit any more than I do. He doesn't actually believe in anything. But his paymasters have let him have his fun and get to play at being prime minister. Now it's payback time. And that payback is a No Deal Brexit
Sadly, I think binners is right about BoJo.
To go back to the comments about voting as an emotional reaction, my sister and husband both voted out. Why? He personally felt aggrieved by a Home Secretary called Theresa May over contract changes for him as a police officer. My sister as she wanted a change in the Westminster Call Me Dave government. Both are open that this was an emotional response - yet both still are in denial about leaving. They are doubling down on the 'it is the right thing'. Facts are an irrelevance (still).
the EU being in breach of international law
How so?
Another sector under threat because of Cummings' hate for gdpr and European data security laws
How so?
He's probably bought into the "not negotiating in good faith" nonsense... ignoring all the arbitration process written into the WA that is specifically there to be used if it really is the case that good faith has broken down. Will the UK trigger it... or tear up the agreement because "the big boys won't let us have the cake that they warned was never going to available"?
What! Like moaning about about someone who's dropped a couple of apple pips having just fly tipped 20 tonnes of building rubble oneself. 🙂
The UK accusing the EU fo not negotiating in good faith, that really is a laugh.
It did amuse me Edukator. Projecting I believe its called
Johnson is dim - thats his problem. He is a dim man pretending that he is pretending to be dim to hide his intellect but actually he just is dim
