At some point, this bluster and bravado has to come home to roost surely?
If it doesn't then that is the time to emigrate. If enough people are either thick enough or cynical enough to keep saying Brexit is a good idea, we are ****ed. If that is the case, after Johnson has shat everywhere and run off, there is an uncomfortable likelihood the UK will go down the 'Strong Leader' path. 90 years is long enough to forget.
Hopefully not. Hopefully the 'normal' Tory MPs who cynically hitched a lift on the bullshit bus will get fed up of their constituents (and the public in general) asking questions like:
"You promised £350m a week for the NHS, yet I am waiting twice as long as I would have a year ago for 'x'"
"Jobs, jobs, jobs. You promised me a job. There are less jobs than there used to be and the ones that are there are poorly paid and have bare minimum standards"
Or.
"Mr & Mrs Patel still live next door. I thought you were deporting them".
Kelvin it's a simple fact that the reason an election happened was because Swinson refused to work with labour towards a no confidence motion which would have resulted in Corbyn being PM. She naively thought she could be PM and so joined Sturgeon in supporting an election. At that point labour had no choice, and now we are where are, accelerating towards a no deal with almost no opposition because Starmer is rightly staying well clear of it. Labour were burned by the Scottish Referendum vote, and then by brexit. I doubt they'll be engaging much with either subject from now on.
Email from Boris via the Con Party today...
We are now entering the final phase of our negotiations with the EU.
The EU have been very clear about the timetable. I am too.
There needs to be an agreement with our European friends by the time of the European Council on 15 October.
If we can’t agree by then, then I do not see that there will be a free trade agreement between us, and we should both accept that and move on.
We’ll then have a trading arrangement with the EU like Australia’s.
I want to be absolutely clear that, as we have said right from the start, that would be a good outcome for the UK.
As a Government we’re preparing, at our borders and at our ports, to be ready for it.
We will have full control over our laws, our rules, and our fishing waters.
We will have the freedom to do trade deals with every country in the world. And we will prosper mightily as a result.
We will of course always be ready to talk to our EU friends even in these circumstances. Our door will never be closed and we will trade as friends and partners – but without a free trade agreement.
There is still an agreement to be had and we will continue to work hard in September to achieve it.
It is one based on our reasonable proposal for a standard free trade agreement like the one the EU has agreed with Canada and so many others.
Even at this late stage, if the EU are ready to rethink their current positions and agree this I will be delighted.
But we cannot and will not compromise on the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country to get it.
If it doesn’t then that is the time to emigrate. If enough people are either thick enough or cynical enough to keep saying Brexit is a good idea, we are ****ed.
What are you waiting for? Very little has changed since December when the UK electorate gave a massive rubber stamp of approval for brexit in its most extreme form. There's even less opposition now than there was then. Most people are more worried about covid and the economic fallout from that, and the Labour Party won't touch it with a bargepole for obvious reasons. I've been listening carefully for any labour reaction to this morning's news. Absolutely nothing, not even one of Starmer's empty say nothing tweets.
Dazh, don't go blaming this on anyone else. This is completely, one hundred percent, the fault of Boris, the Tory party and it's ukip mates, and the idiots that believed their bullshit.
Next you'll be saying it's the fault of the Germans because they didn't blow his dad up in the war.
This is completely, one hundred percent, the fault of Boris, the Tory party and it’s ukip mates, and the idiots that believed their bullshit.
Absolutely, but you can't deny that the actions of Sturgeon and Swinson back in the autumn have helped them. There was a clear alternative to this, but Sturgeon and Swinson chose an election instead. Had they put aside their own self interest and hubris, we would have had a caretaker labour/coalition government organising a second referendum now. They probably would still have lost it I reckon, but remain would still have been in the game instead of dead and buried.
So you're a foreign government with a UK trade deal nearing agreement e.g. Japan and you hear today's news - are you still in a hurry to sign? Not a chance, you're going to wait to let the UK crash and burn because you know they're going to be desperate.So what happened to "we hold all the cards.."?
but you can’t deny that the actions of Sturgeon and Swinson back in the autumn have helped them.
Does this little re-imagined fantasy retelling of the last election come with it's own interpretative dance ensemble, or is it a spoken word piece?
It'll come from a right leaning Facebook group that is already sowing the seeds of blame on anybody else
re-imagined fantasy retelling
Tory MPs voting to make Corbyn PM… the fantasy that will never die.
We’ll then have a trading arrangement with the EU like Australia’s.
Of course, and we must keep saying this, Australia has arrangements with the EU for it’s main exports, raw materials and agricultural products, so “No Deal” is not the same trading arrangement as Australia. Also, Austria has lots of deeper arrangements with it’s neighbours, they are not crazy enough to throw all those away in one go… no country would be.
you’re going to wait to let the UK crash and burn because you know they’re going to be desperate
Well, that’s the approach the USA have taken… smaller countries may well take a different approach, but the big players can afford wait and take advantage of what is coming.
dazh
Full Member
Kelvin it’s a simple fact that
...it's a complex multifactorial issue with many different paths and lots of blame to spread around. Corbyn only wanted his own impossible unicorn brexit, it might have been a bit less shit than the current shitshow but it would still have been shit.
Does this little re-imagined fantasy
It's hardly a fantasy. There was a clear alternative on the table. They had the numbers, and a rough plan, but it was rejected by the SNP and the Lib dems (and 'anti-brexit' tories who strangely all voted for it). All it needed was for remainers in the commons to put aside their non-brexit differences but they chose not to. I'm not saying it would have been easy or a certainty, but they didn't even try.
Anyway doesn't matter now, and I'm pretty sure it would only have kicked the can down the road a year or two til they lost a second referendum. One thing that is certain is that the brexit opposition was a clear and unimitigated failure. At every stage they did the wrong thing, and played right into the hands of the ERG nutters. Outflanked by Francois and Rees Mogg. That's quiite a thing to have to live with.
The rebel Tory MPs were never going to vote for Corbyn to be PM.
The rebel Tory MPs were never going to vote for Corbyn to be PM.
I'm inclined to agree but we'll never know because they weren't given the opportunity thanks to Swinson and Sturgeon's antics. There was plenty room to negotiate the terms of a temporary labour govt, but they couldn't be arsed. The result is where we are now.
We do know, they were asked.
Dazh, you're kind of missing the point that Sturgeon and Swinson knew that putting Magic Grandpa in as caretaker PM was toxic - they knew that Brexit was a stink but he was an even shittier prospect
We do know, they were asked.
Being asked their opinion and how they vote when the chips are down are entirely different things. Clarke had signalled he would be willing to talk about it, others would have followed. I have no idea if it would have succeeded but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have panned out as everyone assumed or was saying in public. In the end the situation was forced by Swinson and Sturgeon. Swinson calculated (spectacularly wrongly as it turned out) that she had a better chance of being PM than Corbyn, Sturgeon sat back and let it happen because she wanted an election asap. So like I said, Sturgeon has some brass neck. At least Swinson is keeping quiet and has gracefully disappeared.
I'm sorry, this is just the made up delusions of someone making excuses for voting for this shit. The SNP, labour party or liberal party aren't to blame.
BLAME THE ****ING TORYS
I’m sorry, this is just the made up delusions of someone making excuses for voting for this shit.
You've lost me. The events of the autumn are on record and plain to see for anyone who wishes to look. I don't know what purpose denying the abject failure of remainers in parliament serves but if it makes you feel better then carry on. It's hardly a surprise things are turning out as they are if the limit of opposition to brexit is basically shouting at Boris and those who voted for him about how awful they are.
Johnson's gamble probably won't pay off
Im not sure the EU will blink, undermining the withdrawal treaty he'd already signed is exactly something the EU won't deal with.
The question is what happens next?
Government has already started building infrastructure for ni north sea border checks, so it'll be a humiliating climb down come Xmas for Johnson.
PS. This is the first time I've got involved in any brexit chat since the election and I see not much has changed 😉
Move on, get over it. I guarantee you'll all feel better for it. I know I do.
I wonder to what extent Nigel Farage withdrawing candidates in 317 seats threw a spanner in the election calculations by Labour and the Lib Dems?
Move on, get over it. I guarantee you’ll all feel better for it. I know I do.
I won't if I lose my ****ing job as a result (unlikely, but never say never).
Nor will anyone else, I think.
Move on, get over it. I guarantee you’ll all feel better for it. I know I do.
You're posting in a "Brexit 2020+" thread, and admonishing people for discussing the impact and handling of Brexit now and in the future... because...?
We'd stayed well away from talking about what happened before we left the EU, and were discussing what is occurring on a day by day basis right now... it was you [edit: sorry, I see that your comment was a reply to someone else, so it wasn't initially down to you] that threw in some irrelevance about the mess of last year.
Nor will anyone else, I think.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it won't negatively affect people, it absolutely will. But there's no point worrying about stuff you can't change. The only viable option is to accept it and try to adapt if required.
sorry, I see that your comment was a reply to someone else, so it wasn’t initially down to you
Well TBF it went off on a bit of a wormhole but I still feel it necessary to point out the irony of holding up the likes of Sturgeon as a remain hero when she was one of the main culprits in its defeat. I guess the main point is that they ALL failed miserably against a motley crew of nutters and narcissists. That's quite an indictment of so-called sensible, grown up, experienced politicians from the centrist establishment.
Starmer and labour have even less interest in brexit than Corbyn did. What a result.
In fairness What should/can they do at this point? The public themselves have limited interest and Brexit fatigue, plus theres been a couple of other things happening lately...
Dom/Boris ("Doris"?) and the ERG now fuly own what is left of the "conservative party", a Parliamentary majority, have pretty tight control of the "Meeja narrative" and a massive bag of dead cats ready to distract the great unwashed.
Whatever opposition to the current Brexit trajectory is put up will be steamrolled, it is happening. That's it basically... It's time to plan for the next battle.
All that Kier and Co. can really do at this point is watch and take notes, hoping that the combination of wild promises that will be broken, the general misshandling of CV19 and an impending recession will finally open some eyes to the reality of the Great Brexit Grift meaning Bozza becomes a one-term wonder (although there is still plenty of time for the planned smash and grab)...
Right now Starmer looks like a potential PM in waiting (IMO).
Unfortunately that's going to be a long wait, during which time the arguments for a Labour government can be sharpened up BUT don't be suprised if Cummings turns his attentions to the next smear campaign (starting maybe Q4 2022?) on the off chance that they can paint Sir Kier as either a political "Establishment" figure or the next Loony lefty "Marxist" whichever fits the propaganda best...
Absolutely, but you can’t deny that the actions of Sturgeon and Swinson back in the autumn have helped them. There was a clear alternative to this, but Sturgeon and Swinson chose an election instead. Had they put aside their own self interest and hubris, we would have had a caretaker labour/coalition government organising a second referendum now. They probably would still have lost it I reckon, but remain would still have been in the game instead of dead and buried.
I'm not sure this exactly matches most people's memories of the run up to the GE. I'll not deny the "moderate" Remain side of our national politics failed to offer as unified an opposition as they perhaps could, but with the benefit of hindsight I think it's safe to say Team Boris played the game better.
Full on brinksmanship; wind up the electorate with blocked vote after blocked vote, then paint the picture of an "undemocratic political establishment" happy to ignore the "Will of the people" to some extent it didn't really matter how much of a cross-party remain coalition there was, it would probably still have played into the narrative Cummings wanted to construct...
If you have to blame an opposition party leader, blame Corbyn, at one point He had soaring popularity with young voters (via momentum), and I'm pretty sure he could have mobilised many the 48% of us that supported Remain back in 2016. He was leader of the opposition and he pissed it away by being generally ambivalent on the one burning issue of the time and not wanting to commit on a cause his main voter base felt pasionate about...
He was leader of the opposition and he pissed it away by being generally ambivalent on the one burning issue of the time
Corbyn was pro-brexit. Always was, always will be. It was his party which was ambivalent, and he was a prisoner to that situation. In the end the brexit wing of the labour party were correct in the damage it would do, but that's little consolation.
You have Sturgeons action and words badly wrong
Sturgeon is just about the only leader with no blame to share... the Scottish government put forward a series of proposals for leaving the EU in a manner that wouldn't further damage the union of the home countries, despite it arguably being in the interest of those in favour of Scottish independence for the UK to head down the destructive route the likes ERG and others have successfully pushed us towards. That was real "the people of Scotland before my own political ambitions" stuff, and, as someone who wants Scotland to stay in the UK, that seriously impressed me. As for the dance that took place before the last election... the SNP played a bigger role, in the courts and in parliament, in trying to stop a No Deal Brexit than any of the "UK wide" parties. All the options other than an election were coming from them, not being stopped by them. Cherry in particular was outstanding. This hard Brexit is not the fault of the SNP in any way.
TJ she said all the things required to keep her within deniable distance but its pretty clear that an early election was her priority. There were many things she could have done to help the remain cause but didn't because it would have damaged the independence drive.
I'm not sure why corbyns incompetence needs to derail the brexit thread
I still don't think Johnson/Cummings daft enough to go thru with no deal
Nonsense. Complete piffle
An election was her preferred option but she would have got behind any attempt to stop Brexit and indeed did so
Don't believe the lies of the unionist press
Dazh is just trying to blame anyone else but himself for voting for this.
And where are you getting this from? Facebook?
Don't all opposition leaders want an election, always? Especially when the incumbent government are clinging on by their nails. Didn't we hear little else from Corbyn whenever other possibilities came up, for two solid years?
----
Back to "today"... a "no10 spokesperson" says that the new bills won't tear up the NI part of the Withdrawal Agreement after all. [who, what, why ... dunno, and I don't know why they are still reporting this kind of flim flam with such plausible deniability]
Dazh is just trying to blame anyone else but himself for voting for this.
???
Voted remain. Would do again tomorrow without thinking about it and would vote to rejoin. You're not the first to make that mistake though.
but they didn’t even try.
If you're handing out blame, neither did Corbyn. The failure of last autumn to unite the various factions was as much Labour's failure as the other opposition parties. All the accusations of "self interest" and "short term-ism" can be heaped at their feet as well. I still remember Corbyn supporters railing against the other opposition parties for their failure to recognise and support a "Labour Brexit" knowing full well they couldn't and wouldn't. They were all playing the same game
I reckon I used the right term:
ambivalent
/amˈbɪv(ə)l(ə)nt/adjective
adjective: ambivalent
having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something or someone.
Leading a party where the parliamentary representatives were largely Remainers and the core voters were probably a split between Remain/Leave. So knowing He could neither really follow his own instincts, or the party line without alienating half his support, he decisively swithered and did eff-all of any import for several years.
My point was though that if the leader of the biggest opposition party remains motionless on a frankly huge issue, then the actions of those smaller Opposition parties is largely irrelevant. You could argue given his belief in Brexit he should have stepped down in 2018ish? But then He'd not long ago had a relative electoral "success" galvanising all that Momentum support into Millennial votes. He clung on to a time limited leadership position well after it was clear he was doing nothing useful for the p[arty or the nation... But you reckon Jo Swinson is more to blame?
Of course the Lib-Dems and SNP were acting in "self interest" trying to attract us remoaners to vote for them. Because being honest about it we all knew at least 18 months ago that Remaining was a lost cause...
And they were at least offering policy promises based on their own principles/beliefs. Both Leaders saw Brexit as damaging and were going to oppose it. Corbyn Promised to do what exactly on Brexit?
Abstain from votes himself and not whip his MP's?
Strong leadership stuff that eh...
It's all history... the Vote Leave government is now tasked with getting the trade deals it promised in 2016 and 2019, and that post Brexit Britain (that's us folks, we've left) is supposed to have... and it's sabotaging them at every opportunity. They were given a free pass to extend the transition period, to have more time to DO THEIR JOB (THE JOB THAT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST TILL THEY SOLD THE IDEA THAT IT SHOULD EXIST) and get us those trade deals, and put systems in place to support companies and people working within them... but what are they doing??? Bung us a bob for big ben bongs and come shake my hand down the covid word... I'm going off on holiday for a few more weeks... f business, f the people of NI, f the union with Scotland, f the experts, f the voters, f the BBC, f C4, f the civil service, f the courts, f trade, f industry, f the NHS, f the epidemic preparedness strategy, f local councils, f the farmers, f the care workers, f the teachers, f the haulage industry, f the small boat fishermen, f the people.
Voted remain. Would do again tomorrow without thinking about it and would vote to rejoin. You’re not the first to make that mistake though.
Now why might that be?
But we've played this game before and it didn't get anyone anywhere before.
There seems to be a developing consensus from what I've been reading today that Boris is absolutely getting ready to blink and blink hard.
However, it's going to be portrayed as exactly the opposite. A triumph from the edge of the abyss. Make a deal look impossible then Battling Boris Beats the Bosch at the last second, thus becoming a cunning negotiator in his adoring fans eyes.
The really interesting part is obviously going to be who gets thrown under the bus and how on earth that gets portrayed as a triumph.
I suspect that the fishing industry is going to get some rather unpleasant news about what taking back control really means. I think they will also soon realise that to most Leave voters, being the poster boy industry of choice for a while won't count for much in the end. Put simply, when it really comes down to it, the average Leave voter doesn't actually care about the fishing industry when it really comes down to it and the government never did anyway.
What other concessions can be masked as wins though? Cold hard truths are going to be coming soon, whatever spin is put on them.
Many commentators do believe that this is all just bullshit and bluster. I hope so. Although even threatening to break international law makes future negotiation much more difficult. On anything. That's the problem with acting like a dick. People remember.
Cold hard truths are going to be coming soon
Johnson fears truth because he is a liar, a coward and exists hour to hour by lying and evading. A fraud.
**** him and the damage he has done and continues to do to the standing of the UK on the international stage.
Many commentators do believe that this is all just bullshit and bluster. I hope so.
Of course it is, bullshit & bluster is his speciality
However, it’s going to be portrayed as exactly the opposite. A triumph from the edge of the abyss.
Exactly. That was exactly how he portrayed it the last time he bottled it, threw the DUP under the bus and caved in over the Northern Ireland issue.
He accepted a ‘deal’ that was far worse than the one he slated that Theresa May had negotiated and only a week earlier he himself described as ‘nothing any British PM could ever agree too’. That’s when it suited him. Now it no longer does. It was a ‘triumph’ then, it’s now terrible.
He is greatly helped in being able to do this by the fact that all the ERG and his Brexit supporting mates are all as thick as mince. Stick a Union Jack in a dog turd and they’d applaud it. A bunch of simpletons with the attention span of a goldfish. They seem to have already forgotten who it was who ‘negotiated the deal’ they now say is an insult to British Sovereignty. That’s right, dickheads, the fly-tipped sofa presently occupying number 10
The one hope we’ve got left is Boris Johnson’s cowardice. And it’s been pretty dependable so far. This nonsense just looks like more posturing for the flag-waving ****-wits, before he caves in at the 11tg hour again then sells it to these clowns as a ‘victory for Britain’
I find the Daily Mash more reliable than most other media outlets...
