I understand your argument molgrips and the line followed by Starmer - and the reasons for it. I do not agree and that poll bears me out
His job is to follow the research (to obtain the maximum possible votes)
I thought his job was to lead the Labour Party "for the many, not for the few" etc etc.
Winning elections is part of that job, but winning for the sake of winning with no vision as to what the winning is for, is most certainly not what it's supposed to be about.
TJ, I have some sympathy for your position, but we do not live in a democracy. FPTP means that for Labour to succeed, they need votes from a relatively small number of people in a few seats who are "Brexit-supporting, older (but not retired), economically precarious, socially conservative, white, not in big cities and without higher education." Your strategy would lose those people, and the election along with them. You persist in ignoring this fact.
I thought his job was to lead the Labour Party “for the many, not for the few” etc etc.
Right, and that party's primary aim is to get into government yes, like all major political parties in an FPTP system.
Winning elections is part of that job, but winning for the sake of winning with no vision as to what the winning is for, is most certainly not what it’s supposed to be about.
As has been said - governments do lots and lots of things, but voters don't understand them all. Voters mostly vote on sentiment not rational analysis. So you need to appeal to voters, but be vague on the details so that you can do what you actually want or need to without being seen to have lied. The slogans are vague so that you can read into them what you want to read.
Grumpy remainers on here seem to think that Starmer should be their hero and bring us back into the EU the day after election. And whilst I would love nothing more than that, it just isn't going to happen. So the grumpy remainers now assume that Starmer has somehow become a Brexiteer. I am absolutely sure he hasn't - any more than you all have - but he's positioning the party so that it can do the subtle things needed to bring us gradually closer without destroying the big lead he's been gifted.
We've got a couple of years now and I'm sure that during that time, they will respond to changing opinion, and I'm sure they're primed ready to do that when it's deemed appropriate. After all, Brexit is clearly a Tory thing so the less favourable it becomes the more they will try to highlight that and create distance from it.
It's just a slogan, not a manifesto. You're assuming that 'make Brexit work' means 'we love Brexit' but it can just as easily mean 'we'll get as close to the EU as possible without rejoining'.
So you need to appeal to voters, but be vague on the details so that you can do what you actually want or need to without being seen to have lied. The slogans are vague so that you can read into them what you want to read.
The criticism of Starmer is that this is definitely not what he has done.
He left himself no wriggle room to move towards the SM/CU/EU by categorically ruling out all three (as well as FOM).
Any move he makes to do so after the election will justifiably be seen as a betrayal and further erode faith in the democratic process and fuel the, 'They're all the same anyway' argument.
I know you're trying to suggest that those of us who don't support this approach are naïve and simply don't understand how FPTP works but in this case I think you're assuming Starmer is playing some 4D chess game when in actual fact all he has done is unnecessarily pin himself into a corner while running scared from red wall racists.
Idiotic cowardly move that he is ultimately going to regret.
We aren’t joining the SM and CU “after the election”. People still don’t get it… we have decades of rebuilding relationships and improving agreements ahead… Brexit can’t be undone in a few parliamentary terms… this is precisely why we needed a “measure twice, cut once” vote on tearing everything up… Brexit wasn’t switching a switch that can be just switched back… it was ripping out the cables before burning down the house.
People still don’t get it… we have decades of rebuilding relationships and improving agreements ahead…
Well, certainly the longer you leave it the longer it will take. By that, I mean every year you're out will probably be an extra two years to get back in.
That's why ruling out any movement towards SM/CU/EU/FOM for an entire parliament cycle is so stupid.
Depends what you do in those years… aggressive divergence or agreeing to cooperate and align.
Anyway, the USA are signing a series of mini-deals aimed at green energy transformation with the EU & Japan.
We’d be a key player in that without Brexit.
UK car and renewables industries getting slowly screwed again.
A reminded that Brexit has weakened our position in the world, not just in Europe.
Looking at it from the purely practical point of view: any incoming Labour administration is going to have an complete and utter shambles to sort out. There simply isn't the bandwidth to sort out the mess this country is in and also start massively complex negotiations about re-entry to the customs union and single market
One of the reasons the UK is in the state that its in is because Brexit has sucked up all available parliamentary time for years while the party allegedly in government eats itself over the issue. All while far more pressing issues were ignored. Why would a new government bog itself down in the same quagmire?
The EU knows that there will be a totally different attitude from a Labour government towards co-operation and the ramping down of the rhetoric, but formal negotiations to get us back into the EU are going to have to wait for another day, some way down the line.
They've got bigger fish to fry, quite frankly
aggressive divergence or agreeing to cooperate and align.
Alignment is generally easier if you haven't ruled out alignment beforehand.
He left himself no wriggle room to move towards the SM/CU/EU by categorically ruling out all three (as well as FOM).
No, he's ruled out rejoining (for now) but he hasn't rules out moving closer. There's a big difference.
running scared from red wall racists
Running scared? How else are you meant to get people to vote for you other than telling them what they want to hear? Force them somehow? Not quite sure how you think 'standing up to them' would go...?
Running scared? How else are you meant to get people to vote for you other than telling them what they want to hear?
Any other things people want to hear he should try while he's at it? Bring back hanging? Make cyclists pay road tax?
How about we try the crazy notion of sticking to what he said he was going to do during the leadership contest? How about, “Of course: bring back, argue for, challenge.”
If you don't want to be called a cowardly liar then don't abandon every single thing you said to get people to vote for you in the first place.
Defend him all you want but don't come crying to me next time someone tells you, 'they're all the same, though, so what difference does it make.'
But whatever happens next, ask yourself truthfully: if you care about Johnson’s dishonesty but dismiss Starmer’s, then do you really care about dishonesty at all, or do you just resent being on the receiving end of it? And when you answer – unlike Britain’s two leading politicians – try to be honest.
No, he’s ruled out rejoining (for now) but he hasn’t rules out moving closer. There’s a big difference.
He ruled out any sort of alignment. What does "moving closer" mean in practical terms?
He ruled out any sort of alignment. What does “moving closer” mean in practical terms?
I think the hope is that Starmer is hoodwinking the redwall bumkins into voting for him and he will actually do good sensible things.
What Starmer's supporters on this thread don't seem to realise is that, in this particular scenario, they are the bumkins being hoodwinked by Starmer into voting for him.
molgrips nailed it without realising it earlier:
So you need to appeal to voters, but be vague on the details so that you can do what you actually want or need to without being seen to have lied. The slogans are vague so that you can read into them what you want to read.
Plenty of your Northern Brexit voters think we've made a hash of Brexit... they'll be up for "improving the deal" and "making Brexit work" when it comes to the UK:EU talks in 2025. But worrying them about "rejoining" the SM or CU at that point is politically unnecessary when it isn't going to happen.
He ruled out any sort of alignment. What does “moving closer” mean in practical terms?
Its not a case of 'moving closer', its a case of not moving further away
The whole point of Brexit was what the Tory's euphemistically refer to as 'divergence', but in reality means tearing up workers rights, food and environmental regulations and general deregulation of the financial sector etc. All for the purpose of undercutting our neighbours and turning the UK into a tax haven with a sweatshop attached to it
With Covid they haven't really had chance to do this yet, but its all in the post, believe me. If this shower got another term it'd be full speed ahead with all that and any idea of any form of future integration of any form with the EU will be gone forever
So the priority now is to stop that happening, which means we need a government that won't do that. That means a labour government
Plenty of your Northern Brexit voters think we’ve made a hash of Brexit… they’ll be up for “improving the deal” and “making Brexit work” when it comes to the UK:EU talks in 2025. But worrying them about “rejoining” the SM or CU at that point is politically unnecessary when it isn’t going to happen.
I agree, Starmer has been vague enough that this is a possible scenario.
Whether it's a likely scenario or not, he's not really been clear enough to say.
That means a labour government, I hope
FTFY
What Starmer’s supporters on this thread don’t seem to realise is that, in this particular scenario, they are the bumkins being hoodwinked by Starmer into voting for him.
Who else am I going to vote for??
Who else am I going to vote for??
Greens
Let the martyrdom of your vote be the spark that ignites the revolution.
Or just vote for Labour and hope you don't end up with more of the same (ha ha, good luck with that).
That’s why ruling out any movement towards SM/CU/EU/FOM for an entire parliament cycle is so stupid.
The EU have (rightly) no interest in talking to just the Labour party about re-admission or closer alignment. It needs consensus of both parties before it's even on the cards.
It needs consensus of both parties before it’s even on the cards.
Source?
Not saying it's wrong, just not something I've heard before. If true it's something Labour can use to batter the Tories with until they are basically the Lib-Dems.
You know, if they hadn't already adopted the same position as the Tories...
What we have here is a load of wishful thinking with many people believing (or claiming to believe) that Starmer's approach to Brexit will be the sensible version that they themselves prefer.
What Starmer is actually promising however is to follow the Tory lead on everything, perhaps in a marginally less nasty way.
Source?
Er, me? It's just an opinion. But if I was the EU I'd be pretty chary about speaking with just one party about what would be a pretty long term programme, wouldn't you? Despite the fact that the Conservative brand has been pretty obviously badly mauled by the ignominious failure to "Get Brexit Done" with the aid of a massive parliamentary majority, I don't think they'll be ready to face that home truth after just one parliamentary cycle either
So, to get the Brexit die-hards over the line, I think Starmer can safely rule it out for the sake of political expediency
As a citizen of this country I've felt it my duty to criticize and despise whoever is in power.
Starmer has earnt himself that honour and he's not even in power yet.
****.
Er, me? It’s just an opinion
Ah, OK. You just sounded so sure of yourself I assumed it was common knowledge I'd somehow missed.
There's an awful lot of very unfounded assumptions being stated as fact on this thread.
You know, if they hadn’t already adopted the same position as the Tories…
I really don't think they have.
What Starmer is actually promising however is to follow the Tory lead on everything, perhaps in a marginally less nasty way.
Still preferable though, no?
You just sounded so sure of yourself
Yes, on re-reading it does sound a bit self righteous, sorry.
Maybe preferable but maybe not sufficiently so for me to vote for them. And there's also the risk that a vote for them will be taken as supportive of their tory-lite policies. Some of us remember being told that "80% of the electorate voted for pro-brexit parties" previously.
There are other parties with progressive and pro-EU policies, after all.
Still preferable though, no?
- 'Would you like some jam on your shit sandwich?'
- 'But I still don't understand why I have to eat the shit sandwich at all?'
- 'It'll be worse if you don't. We can't tell you how exactly, but trust us, it'll be worse.'
- 'Fine, I'll take some jam.'
Next day's headlines: '80% of people choose to eat shit. Shit declared nations favourite food!'
We have the shit sandwich... that boat has sailed... blame the people that made that choice for us... what's the path back to proper nutritious tasty food? It's not lying and saying we're joining the Single Market and Customs Union after the next election... it'll take more than five years to prepare even after the long process of building consensus in the UK, and trust in the EU. We need to stop the Conservatives removing the bread and adding to the shit... come 2025 lots of temporary measures the EU have granted us are coming to an end, and the talks about where the TCA goes next begin in earnest. If you think those talks will go much the same way whoever makes up the UK government... well... it's an opinion... I just don't agree.
There are other parties with progressive and pro-EU policies, after all.
But none in my constituency that can form a government.
Next day’s headlines: ‘80% of people choose to eat shit. Shit declared nations favourite food!’
I get your point but it's of no practical benefit given our electoral system, as you know.
It’s not lying and saying we’re joining the Single Market and Customs Union after the next election…
It's also not ruling out rejoining CU/SM/EU/FOM.
You are making it sound like it's some sort of bizarre quest. We're not travelling to Mordor, we're trying to regain regulatory alignment with a trading block.
The first step is generally to say, 'Hey, we'd like to join part of your trading block, please.' to which someone with a funny accent says, 'Of course. Now, if you could meet these targets we'll be happy to move to the next stage.' and you progress from there.
You're making it sound like even finding the correct incantation to summon an EU representative would be at least two full George R.R. Martin books.
But I still don’t understand why I have to eat the shit sandwich at all?
52% of people voted that we all get shit sandwiches for lunch, so shit sandwiches it is.
Thats democracy for you.
You can rail against it all you like and I'm sure your plan to vote for the Green party to usher in the revolution is a sure-fire winner and will resolve this whole frightful mix up
We're not joining in the next parliamentary term... reassuring people that would scare off that we're not joining in that time frame is simple politics. "Don't worry, we're not doing that thing we can't do anyway that the Tories claim we will do, but we can't do"... why not rule out what isn't happening anyway to neutralise the charge of "they want to undo Brexit" that the Tories are desperate to have as a tool at the election in keys seats? If we ever do join, it'll be under a different leader... it's not the work of this one... it's not what the 2025-30 years will be about. Annoying as that might be for some people. You can see a few possible candidates lining themselves up to be that possible future Labour leader.
But none in my constituency that can form a government.
I get your point but it’s of no practical benefit given our electoral system, as you know.
Yes, and you are condemning yourself to eat that same shit sandwich forever.
Nothing is ever going to change until people are willing to 'throw away' their votes.
And because everyone is such a special and unique snowflake and therefore their votes are special unique snowflakes and can't possibly be wasted we're all stuck eating shit for the rest of our lives. The End.
I should really become a children's author.
It’s also not ruling out rejoining CU/SM/EU/FOM.
If it takes ten years, he can rule it out for now. It can always be ruled back in, but more likely he won't be PM long enough to have to make that call.
Nothing is ever going to change until people are willing to ‘throw away’ their votes.
Or until the system changes. If only one of the main parties had electoral reform on their agenda....
and I’m sure your plan to vote for the Green party to usher in the revolution is a sure-fire winner and will resolve this whole frightful mix up
Aye, cause your plan to vote Labour because they aren't going to do what they're saying they are going to do is absolutely full-proof.
So - I could vote for the best of a mediocre bunch, or.. not the best of a mediocre bunch. Hmm, tough one.
We’re not joining in the next parliamentary term… reassuring people that would scare off that we’re not joining in that time frame is simple politics.
We're not even going to start the process of joining.
Because it's been ruled out by both parties.
If it takes ten years, he can rule it out for now.
You can't start the joining process until you ask how to start the joining process. And if you ask how to start the joining process you've started the joining process.
Yes, and you are condemning yourself to eat that same shit sandwich forever.
Nothing is ever going to change until people are willing to ‘throw away’ their votes.
And what makes you think that there's this huge groundswell of people who are just waiting for their opportunity to usher the Green party into government?
The majority of people in this country want to drive massive 4x4's the 200 yards to the shop and eat burgers every night
You're living in an absolute fantasy world
You can’t start the joining process until you ask how to start the joining process.
I bet he does, on the quiet.
You can’t start the joining process until you ask how to start the joining process.
The "start of the process" is to stop all the UK government talk of aggressive diversion on standards for competitive gain. Not least on environmental standards and workers rights. And then replacing the temporary arrangements the EU have granted us with a firm update to the TCA where we agree not to diverge in return for keeping the access we currently have but are set to lose (yes, Brexit is far from done, there is still bread to be lost and more shit to pile up). But you're ignoring that and wanting a quick switch to joining the SU & CU... but that isn't going to happen.
You’re living in an absolute fantasy world
So are you if you think voting Labour is going to fix anything long term (or even short term, for that matter).
But maybe you're right. Voting green isn't good enough.
I think people should pimp up to the polling station, drop their kecks, and curl one off right in the ballot box. If just a few million people did that I'm sure we would have the D'Hondt system before lunchtime.
Or maybe we should hold that in reserve and try 'wasting' our votes first.
You remember what happened the last time millions of people decided to 'waste' their votes as a sort of protest against the establishment?
Brexit.
Your revolution already happened
