Now add a section of the EU that will make it hard for us, just because.
Nope, Britain will make it hard by wanting cake as usual. The Eu will just want Britain to accept the same conditons as other countries with the same level allignment and integration.
Those of you saying rejoining (in some form) will "take too long" - too long compared to what?
Staying out will take forever, it will never end, it will go on and on as an open sore.
I don't expect to waltz back into the EU/SM/CU in the next few weeks or months. Of course. But denying that this is the only viable long-term future which does not cause ongoing harm for ever and ever into the future is just stupid. This is what Starmer is trying to sell us, and I'm not buying. The longer he persists with this lie, the worse the problem, the bigger the costs.
This is what Starmer is trying to sell us,
No it isn't. His current position is that pursuing rejoin now would do more damage for two reasons: it's a distraction from our other problems, and it would cause a prolonged period of uncertainty and chaos which is bad for investment and bad for business. Both of those are obviously true. His stated aim is a 'better' trading relationship, and he hasn't put a limit on that. It may be that the pursuit of 'better' eventually leads to us rejoining, it may not. But going straight for 'rejoin' is politically impossible. As I said above, I have reluctantly come to agree with this. Your "Rejoin. It's not rocket science" is laughably naive and not even an answer to my question. I was asking what he should do; what actual steps should he take. An actual executable plan.
"better" is a lie because there is no significantly better ( ok just misleading statement for the pedantic)
No Economic case for rejoin is an outright lie
Piolitical impossibility is only because he has made it so
One wheel - I have answered you. Go straight to the EU " we want to rejoin" and accept all the well known conditions. thats the only sensible route
How about if "rejoin" is "Swiss/Norway deal" ? The UK might even get away with not joining Shengen as part of the deal so as to respect the Good Friday Agreement - no border in Ireland.
I'd be interested to know if other rejoiners would be satisfied with a Swiss/Norway deal as an initial objective that can quickly be implemented, STW poll ?
So long as we are in the CU, SM and the 4 freedoms apply I have no issue
I have no interest in listening to Starmer lying.
So you won't hear the other side of the argument you're trying to make? Your argument is in tatters you might as well give up.
I value Starmer's analysis over yours - sorry.
He is obviously lying.
"No economic case" is a clear lie
"Make brexit work" is a clear lie
"better relationship" without CU and SM - at best misleading as there is nothing that would be significantly better.
I have heard his lies multiple times. Whats the point in listening to them again? He is now a brexiteer and labour is a brexiteer party.
One wheel- so what is your executable plan for making brexit work then that will actually make a real difference? two can play at that game 🙂 remember Starmer has ruled out the 4 freedoms, CU and SM
so how can he "make brexit work" ?
I actually don't really care what the now little englander centre right labour party do
the only thing I am interested in is Scottish idependence
Labour and tory. two cheeks of the same arse. Pro brexit, anti immigration, anti democratic, pro austerity, pro privitisation. Neither give me any hope for the future 0of the UK
Blablabla.
I have heard his lies multiple times. Whats the point in listening to them again?
I dunno, you seem intent on making us listen to you say the same thing over and over again so I assumed you must think there's value in it 😉
I said I wouldn't engage any more and yet here we are a week later with people still dug in further to their positions.
I think many of us wish this could be magicked away, it can't. We can't go back to the way things where; the cat's out of the bag and we have to take the beating now.
The nuclear option of going begging and willing to accede to every joining option just isn't going to happen, for many reasons which I know TJ won't accept. Politics, economics, handing the RW press a stick to hit labour with, risk of alienating the voters that will decide the marginal seats.....
TJ you're wasting your time in hoping for it. You have to accept it won't happen, and now to concentrate on things that might. Or you'll be here in a week, a month and a year from now for all the effect it'll have.
Uncle Jezza, much as I love you, you don’t half talk some nonsense
If you think that the Labour Party under Starmer is in any way comparable to this shower of useless, corrupt ****s we presently have in government then you’re out of your mind
Rejoining the EU is simply not going to happen any time soon, if ever. Pointing this uncomfortable reality out doesn’t make me, Starmer or anyone else a Brexiteer.
We need to dial down the ridiculous anti-EU rhetoric that is causing so much damage and get a government in power that values a decent constructive relationship with our neighbours, instead of being openly antagonistic and confrontational for the sake of pacifying the unhinged lunatics in its own ranks
Right now, I’m afraid that’s the best we can hope for. And once some burned bridges have been rebuilt, we can hopefully move forward from there
I hope for it (rejoining), fervently, I will be dancing in the streets with blue body paint and gold stars painted on my arse when it happens; but I can appreciate it will take 20 years. I'm not expecting Starmer to make rejoin official party policy because it's just not politically possible right now. It simply won't work. A party leader can't just make everyone do what they want, that's not even how leadership should work.
Or to put it another way, you can only play the hand you're dealt.
The right thing to do is ease the current problems as much as we can in the short term, then gradually creep closer with things like regulatory alignment and participation in the various programmes. We will end up more like Switzerland and then Norway, but that will take many many years. It's not happening at the next election, be realistic.
EDIT also well put Binners.
I said I wouldn’t engage any more and yet here we are a week later with people still dug in further to their positions.
I said the same to to myself 🙂
Molgrips - I have to listen to folk justifying Starmers lies 🙂
No one can tell me how there is going to be any significant change or rapprochement with the brexiteer position Starmer has taken. He claims that he will make brexit work while ruing out categorically all the things he needs to do
Can anyone explain how he can?
I have to listen to folk justifying Starmers lies
Calling them 'lies' is puerile, you sound like chewkw only taking yourself more seriously.
Can anyone explain how he can?
You aren't listening to us in the slightest. I've already explained what I think he is up to, just go back and read.
Binners - from where I sit its " would you like your shit sandwich on brown or white bread? Its still a shit sandwich
would you like your shit sandwich on brown or white bread? Its still a shit sandwich
Yes, we are facing a shit sandwich, and this is the Tories' fault. No question there. The problem here is that you think Starmer can make it all go away if he would just say the words. He can't.
Molgrips - they are lies. " no economic case to rejoin" is an outright lie as is "make brexit work" neither has any truth to it
You have explained what you think he is up to. I understand that. I think he has chosen the wrong path
No one has explained how he can make brexit work. As in get back all that lost trade, as in a recovery for all the businesses ruined by it, as in recover all the lost taxes, as in recover all the lost growth etc etc
I value Starmer’s analysis over yours – sorry.
Starmer's analysis isn't based on making life better for the UK population. It's based on maximising the number of Labour MPs in Parliament.
No way I would vote for him as long as he's willing to sacrifice the country for the good of the Labour party.
It comes back to the fact he's willing to lie to the electorate to get as many seats as possible (endangering faith in politics and the long term viability of democracy in the UK) or he genuinely plans to make no move to join the CU/SM (the longer the UK stays out the longer the issues will take to fix).
Party over country is why the UK is in the mess it's in.
two cheeks of the same arse. Pro brexit, anti immigration, anti democratic, pro austerity, pro privitisation
I'd have liked to be able to argue against that but then found examples to disprove what I'd have liked to prove. The last one was pro-austerity, I thought surely not, then did some Googling and the best quote was "I’m against austerity. But we’re going to have to be fiscally disciplined" AKA austerity.
Has anyone seen starmer’s 3 lions leg tattoo yet?
No one has explained how he can make brexit work.
That's the whole point of a three word slogan. They're meant to sound good but not promise anything so that noone can analyse them. There's nothing to analyse. Did you just step off a spaceship?
Starmer’s analysis isn’t based on making life better for the UK population. It’s based on maximising the number of Labour MPs in Parliament.
How do you think democracy is meant to work? Politicians need votes that's the whole point.
No way I would vote for him as long as he’s willing to sacrifice the country for the good of the Labour party.
a) He isn't sacrificing anything. He's a remainer just like us, but he knows that he can't do anything about it right now. You and TJ are clinging to the fantasy that this could all be fixed if Starmer just wanted it enough. It just cannot be done.
b) Brexit isn't the only issue facing the country. You have lost all sense of perspective.
He isn’t sacrificing anything. He’s a remainer just like us, but he knows that he can’t do anything about it right now. You and TJ are clinging to the fantasy that this could all be fixed if Starmer just wanted it enough. It just cannot be done.
He's either sacrificing trust in democracy by lying to the electorate or he's sacrificing people's well being by following through with his promise to stay away from the CU/SM.
Look at what happened in Scotland with Gender Recognition. The SNP sacrificed a lot of support but were eventually able to build a cross party consensus. That's governing. Sometimes you have to sacrifice support to do what you believe is right.
It's not an unusual way for a government to work. You see it happening all the time all over Europe.
I really pity you guys. You only see the way things work in England and you assume that things just have to be that way.
Fix our two party fptp system and we'd have more hope about actual governance instead of the clown show currently in offer
I actually don’t really care what the now little englander centre right labour party do
the only thing I am interested in is Scottish idependence
Labour and tory. two cheeks of the same arse. Pro brexit, anti immigration, anti democratic, pro austerity, pro privitisation. Neither give me any hope for the future 0of the UK
Yes, you've made your point multiple times. Can you stop repeating please.
I am struck that those in England demonstrate significantly less to hope for than those in Scotland.
I wonder why that is?
I am reminded of that old (hippy) JLS quote “argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours”.
Just like climate change this is not going to help you.
Surely cling film would be more comfortable than tin foil??
More cash - but its OK for you to keep repeating
"its impossible" etc?
🙂
Regarding rejoining
Do we even meet the democracy criteria for joining the EU? - more than half our parliamentarians are unelected, and our political class is riddled with corruption which legal authorities and courts seem unable or unwilling to fight
I really pity you guys. You only see the way things work in England and you assume that things just have to be that way.
Oh get in the ****ing sea.
I'm very well aware of how things work in other countries. But let me put it as simply as I can for you:
I don't LIKE the situation we are in.
I want things to change. I am perpetually furious about how shit UK government is.
But right now, in this election cycle, Starmer cannot do that. The SNP would not be able to do it either. Comparing Brexit with other unrelated issues in different countries with a completely different political context, a different context and a different parliamentary system is not
And lastly, I AM NOT IN ****ING ENGLAND.
It’s not an unusual way for a government to work
Very true.
Starmer and Labour aren't in government though, unless I've missed something 🤷🏼♂️
It’s also a case of regulatory allignment. The Swiss check their own laws for EU compliance as and when EU laws are passed, and sometimes let the EU law overide their own law. If he wants to keep the EU door open for a Swiss type deal he needs to be very vocally opposing the burning up of EU legislation and explaining why.
Can we all agree that this would be a good compromise at the moment?
No one has explained how he can make brexit work. As in get back all that lost trade, as in a recovery for all the businesses ruined by it, as in recover all the lost taxes, as in recover all the lost growth etc etc
He can't. He knows he can't. His primary responsibility right now is to hold his party together and get in to government. As much as you might like to call people names for supporting that effort it's ignoring the realities on the political ground. Trying to sell a rejoin movement now will just open up all the wounds even more.
You can look at labour's lead in the poles and say 'could do better' all you want but you don't know that that's true and the fact is that the current lead, very healthy as it is, is a result of their current approach and the Tories ongoing implosion. You want to mess with that?
You won't even be voting Labour and nor would you even if he started standing on a rejoin platform, would you?
Can we all agree
Are you new here? 🙂
If he was on a rejoin platform i probably would. My other sticking point tho is democracy - ie PR for westminster and a proper constittional settlement fit for the 21st century. I'd settle for a constitutional convention on that. I would also like to see a repudiation of the labour / tory pact in Scotland
i was a lifelong labour voter until labour in Scotland got into bed with the tories
I believe a platform of rejoin, constitutional convention and no more deals with the tories would gain ;labour a lot of the scots seats
But its too late now for Starmer to change course I think. He has nailed his colours to the mast as a antidemocratic brexiteer
Edit - don't confuse support for independence and respect for Sturgeons competence as meaning uncritical support for the SNP. Ive never voted SNP because some of what they stand for I do not like. My SNP MP is not someone I could ever vote for. the SNP have moved towards the sort of position I would vote for over the years tho and getting rid of Fergus Ewing is a big plus
Oh right. So actually you want him to make 3 other not insignificant commitments in addition to standing on a remain platform before you'll hold your nose and vote Labour. Maybe. :Roll:
My other sticking point tho is democracy – ie PR for westminster and a proper constittional settlement fit for the 21st century.
Yeah I'd love that, can you also get me the moon on a stick whilst you're there please?
But its too late now for Starmer to change course I think. He has nailed his colours to the mast as a antidemocratic brexiteer
He's nailed his colours to the mast as a pragmatist who absolutely must win the next election for the sake of all of us.
This is the price of Brexit. It is a long slow period of repair ahead, no matter what. It’s just reality. There, is, no, quick, fix.
Don’t forget the vandalism hasn’t stopped yet and what is it 1.5 years of time left on the meter before you get a chance to vote.
Indeed. The real fun and games hasn’t even started yet.
The scorched earth ‘Retained EU Laws’ bill will seal our complete divergence from the EU and render the damage irreversible
This is what they’ve REALLY wanted all along. It’s what Brexit was for. The whole point of it. Everything so far has just been mood music.
They are going to have left utter chaos in their disaster capitalist wake by the time they’re done. And now they now that they’re finished electorally it’ll be about doing as much damage as possible before they’re booted out
We’ll be a pariah state who’s economy will be based on money laundering and global tax avoidance with some regulation-free sweatshops bolted on
He’s nailed his colours to the mast as a pragmatist who absolutely must win the next election for the sake of all of us.
Most def, you can’t go having more of that we’re building 40 more hospitals crap.
When it turns out you really,really could do with them and the staff required for them.
If he was on a rejoin platform i probably would. My other sticking point tho is democracy – ie PR for westminster and a proper constittional settlement fit for the 21st century.
I want an anarchist revolution and for us all to live in peace and harmony in a federation of locally organised collectives. Sadly that's about as likely as rejoining the EU and getting rid of FPTP. TJ if you want any advice on how you square unrealistic fantasies of political utopia with cold hard reality just ask. I've spent a lifetime perfecting the coping mechanisms 😀.
I was merely answering the question Del
Don't forget the labour conference voted for PR which would ensure the UK never had a tory government again. Starmer flatly rejected it.
tories have given us a shit sandwich. Labour are offering a sandwich with a bit less shit in it and are telling us it tastes of cake. It hardly appetising
If labour's vision is of a xenophobic isolationist backwater, I don't want any part of it.
And if that isn't their vision, they need to articulate it a bit better.
Also the scottish perspective gives us a very different view. What you see depends on where you are looking from. to see labour acting with the tories and doing deals with them and cheering on tory wins is somewhat offputting to say the least
hence "two cheeks of the same arse" its really what it looks like from here. They are even chasing the same voters. Unionist brexiteers
