They are going to have left utter chaos in their disaster capitalist wake by the time they’re done.
Calm down man. There's very little they can do in the 18 months they have left. It'll take years/decades to unravel all the EU laws even if they have no opposition (and they face significant opposition in the lords), and anything they do manage to do will be easily reversible by the Starmer govt. Aside from further industrial unrest, hospital chaos and more corruption scandals, very little will change between now and the next election.
If labour’s vision is of a xenophobic isolationist backwater
There's plenty ammunition to have a go at the labour party, you don't have to make stuff up. The brexiteers think labour is a haven of woke liberal snowflakes, and rejoiners a nest of closet flag-shagging racists. They can't both be right.
Is that quote from me?
*Apologies TJ. I'm not reading closely enough. Edited accordingly.
Is that quote from me?
I was merely answering the question Del
Appreciated. I do wonder why you get so energised by it all when there's a vanishingly small prospect of you voting for them. The main thing is Tories out, no?
From the viewpoint from here tories or labour makes very little difference when rejoin, action on democracy / the constitution and an end to austerity are being promised by two parties here and both labour and tories are offering brexit, no movement on democracy / the constitution and continueing austerity.
Labour offer Scotland nothing.
The main thing is Tories out, no?
No, the main thing is to improve the quality of life for the UK population.
Starmer is either lying to the population (further undermining faith in politics and democracy in general) or deliberately hamstringing himself so that he can't improve the quality of life for the UK population.
He's not doing it in the name of winning the election. Every opinion poll this year has a lead of between 15% - 25%. He's doing it to maximise the number of seats.
Lying in the name of maximising seat count is why the UK is in the state it's in.
You genuinely think the whole country would be as badly off under labour as under the Tories?
Scotland? yes. I do not believe a labour government will make any significant difference in Scotland. they have made it clear they will not spend significantly more so no increase in the scots budget, they have made it clear they embrace brexit so no answer to the brexit related issues in Scotland which are even more acute than in England. they have made it clear they have no respect for the Scots parliament and have made it clear no change on the constitution
Scotland is my country. England is a foreign country,.
If labour’s vision is of a xenophobic isolationist backwater, I don’t want any part of it.
And if that isn’t their vision, they need to articulate it a bit better.
That's why that slogan is so vague. You are reading far too much into it. It's not a policy statement, it's a marketing slogan. What does "work" mean in this context? Whatever you want it to mean. That's how marketing works, that's how democracy works.
Starmer is either lying to the population (further undermining faith in politics and democracy in general) or deliberately hamstringing himself so that he can’t improve the quality of life for the UK population.
Brexit has hamstrung him.
Rejoin. Is. Not. Politically. Possible.
You need to understand that.
Also, can you specify exactly what the lie is?
further undermining faith in politics and democracy in general
Noone has any faith in it now. Won't make a difference.
He’s doing it to maximise the number of seats.
That's literally his job right now. He's not PM yet.
Labour offer Scotland nothing.
They offer Scottish natiinalists nothing, no. But until you leave they are offering you the same thing they are 9dfering the rest of us. A more competent government that might actually be able to improve things and that aren't Tories.
Actually, you know what? Neither you nor TJ appear to have a clue how politics works so I'll just have to leave it there. I'll come back in a few weeks when we're on something else.
Rejoin. Is. Not. Politically. Possible.
Just about everything worthwhile is not possible, if by possible, you mean achievable in a few weeks.
It doesn't mean we should not argue for doing worthwhile things, even while we acknowledge that these will take some time to achieve..
Miolgrips - what you are missing is the difference in view from here and that fact we are being offered something different.
See my edit as to why labour are offering Scotland nothing - I don't mean independence. I mean real policies that will improve the lives of the population
Rejoin. Is. Not. Politically. Possible.
So you keep on claiming without any evidence or even argument to back it up
If that is true its only so because of Starmers embrace of brexit. From here the view is very different. Rejoin looks perfectly possible for an independent scotland in a short time frame and EU bods have made that clear
Also, can you specify exactly what the lie is?
He's doing the Have Cake and Eat It politics of the Tories. On the one hand, he's saying he will make Brexit work. On the other, he's saying there will be no concessions towards a CU/SM/Swiss style arrangement.
One of these statements is a lie.
The only way to Make Brexit Work is to give up some sovereignty to the EU. If he is not prepared to give up some sovereignty then it's as empty a phrase as Brexit Means Brexit.
So he is either lying that he will make Brexit work or he is lying that there will be no concessions toward a CU/SM/Swiss style deal.
He is following the Tory playbook.
If the next election was on a knife edge there might be some allowance for desperate measures and making promises you know can't be delivered might be justified in terms of getting the Tories out.
A 15%-25% lead is not the point you have to start considering desperate measures.
The only way to Make Brexit Work is to give up some sovereignty to the EU.
Did you listen to the interview? Especially where he was questioned on standards harmonisation? It was a smart answer, saying we will match EU regs without it sounding like giving up control to the EU (yes, this is disingenuous, and you can call it a lie if you want, but it’s what must be done). If you want whole UK alignment with the rest of Europe to actually happen, don’t demand your politicians explain it to voters by waving a white flag and shouting at them how undoing Brexit is the only way forward. Some serious political skills are needed to get the UK through the next 5 or so years.
So he is either lying that he will make Brexit work or he is lying that there will be no concessions toward a CU/SM/Swiss style deal.
It's actually worse than you put it, because by repeating the "make brexit work" lie time after time he's also building a parliamentary labour party full of delusional idiots who really believe this is possible. Thus, rather than cynically dropping the anti-EU stance the second he's elected (as some people would like to believe), he really will find he's irrevocably committed himself and the labour party more generally to pursuing this fantasy unicorn to the ongoing detriment of the country and likely collapse of the labour party as they all spend the next few years coming up with mutually contradictory gibberish about how to achieve it. See also: the current state of the tories.
And Starmers embrace of brexit lets the tories off the hook for the blame. Hence from here its " two cheeks of the same arse" ( along with the continuing alliance between tories and labour norrth of the border. )
shouting at them how undoing Brexit is the only way forward.
What we have here is two parties stating that calmly and reasonably and the remainder of the parties being very quiet about brexit
Did you listen to the interview, where he made it clear that Brexit has made a bad situation worse in the UK? That the Tories were already effing things up, and that with Brexit they’ve made things even worse?
It was a smart answer, saying we will match EU regs without it sounding like giving up control to the EU (yes, this is disingenuous, and you can call it a lie if you want, but it’s what must be done).
It's Have Cake and Eat it Politics.
It doesn't matter whether you call it a lie or disingenuous. It's a continuation of fairy-tale politics where something magic is going to happen and we're going to get all the good stuff and none of the bad.
It is going to lead to further erosion of trust in politics and further undermining of democracy. And it's going to do Labour absolutely no favours in the 7 years time. To the point it wouldn't surprise me if Labour ended up with a single term.
He claims that it's the Tories' version of brexit (that he whipped for and voted for) that has caused the problems, and that Labour's brexit will be unicorn farts and pixie dust. Quite how he hopes to achieve this state of affairs is not entirely clear, but he's going to have a whole bunch of MPs next time round who think that it must be possible (or surely they wouldn't have promised it), and who will be expecting it to be delivered somehow.
And lastly, I AM NOT IN **** ENGLAND
You're forgetting that everyone in Scotland thinks Wales and England are the same thing 😉
I’m not sure that is true. If you agreed on total alignment of standards, I bet you could get pretty close to the benefits of the CU and SM without actually signing up.
Are you still 'believing', have you learned nothing in the last 7 years?
You’re forgetting that everyone in Scotland thinks Wales and England are the same thing
does tend to happen.
However one consistent thing on this thread is folk not understanding the view from north of the border is very different to that from south of the border. ( Scotland England border 😉 )
Lambeth was 78.6% remain and Boston 24.4%. Differences in England itself dwarfed the difference between north and south of the Border. In terms of regions London was very much remain but the West Midlands leave so if you put the border in its traditional place at Watford Gap the North was more leave than the South.
The difference with Scotland is that it has an independant voice and is using it. Good.
I mean the view as in what is seen as possible and desirable and where the political leaders are taking us.
In Scotland our biggest party is pro rejoin, pro immigration and anti austerity as are two of the smaller parties . We are exposed to that voice and point of view. In England only the discredited lib dems are in anyway pro rejoin
I believe also that the ill effects of brexit are more obvious here ( but that could be my bias) and also we do not have a single pro brexit area
So you keep on claiming without any evidence or even argument to back it up
In your terminology this is what is called a lie. I gave you arguments, I asked you to tell us how rejoin could be done. All you could come up with was a piece of magical thinking that would shame a Brexiter "Rejoin. It's not rocket science". No, it's not rocket science - rocket science is an absolute piece of piss compared with trying to rejoin the EU. You have declined to set out the steps you think would be involved - I suspect because you have not actually thought about it. I have a lot of respect for your career spent caring for people - but one thing it has not done is given you an understanding of the difficulties and complexities of trying to achieve political and legislative change on this scale.
Here's a comment from someone who does have some understanding of those difficulties:
A closer relationship with the EU would be the ambition of a government led by Sir Keir Starmer. It is the subtext of the Labour leader’s slogan “make Brexit work”.
That’s a disappointment to those who think that what the UK should really be asking itself is whether there is a way to turn back the clock and return to an EU we should never have left. Another product of Bregret is that pollsters now report that a majority of the public say that, given the choice, they would like to rejoin. There’s a vanishingly slight chance of that happening in the foreseeable future because, even supposing that the EU would welcome us back, the politics of negotiating re-entry and then holding another referendum are so incredibly difficult. The sad and cruel truth is that strategic blunders as colossal as Brexit can’t be corrected easily or swiftly. Some mistakes have to be paid for over many years. This, alas, is the UK’s fate. Not a golden age, but ages of regret.
<deleted - double post due to 502 Bad Gateway>
we do not have a single pro brexit area
Moray was (is?) close. I blame all those military/ex-military types around Kinloss and Lossiemouth 😂
One wheel - difficult does no equal impossible and it still does no excuse Starmers embrace of brexit which has two effects
1) lets the tories off the hook for the blame
2) makes any eventual return harder and take longer
Thats my point not that I think we could renter tomorrow but that should be the clear aim. Rawnsley is not know for his critique of the centre right labour anyway only when it turns to the left. He is completely uncritical of Starmer.
Serious question with the EU laws expiring soon...
Do they
A) Continue to apply unless specifically superceded via a new law being voted in and going through due process?
B) The laws in question simply dissappear from legislature resulting in a total free for all?
C) An admin botch occurs where simply "EU“ is scribbled out and annotated with "UK" on any relevant documents so no change in effect?
D) something else?
B
TJ = armchair football manager
Lolz @ molgrips - thats a bit harsh!
TJ = armchair football manager
Molgrips = petty insult when argument lost.
TJ = armchair football manager
But I told you to score a goal - why didn't you? It's not rocket science!
I thought we had both stepped away 🙂
Starmers position. I understand why he has taken it but I strongly believe it is wrong. Reasons as above and also its a shameful lack of ambition.
I believe living in Scotland where alternatives to supporting brexit are available, talked about and indeed the aim gives a very different point of view.
But I told you to score a goal – why didn’t you? It’s not rocket science!
Because the right wing press and the racists in the stands don't want me to and I'm scared of them 🙂
We’re all armchair football managers, arguing over an own goal that led to demotion.
all good of course however the SNP and the greens in scotland are selling a lie too. quite aside from whether or not separating from your largest, nearest trading partner is sensible, let alone viable for your economy, it's not in their gift. /lights touchpaper, stands well back.
*gets fire extinguisher*
Nurse! He's out of bed again.
I've retired!
dammit!
😀
I don't think I want Starmer to be ambitious right now. He has to get elected. What happens after that will be how I judge him.
all good of course however the SNP and the greens in scotland are selling a lie too. quite aside from whether or not separating from your largest, nearest trading partner is sensible, let alone viable for your economy, it’s not in their gift. /lights touchpaper, stands well back.
You missed a word, an important word - "legally".
Many countries didn't "legally" become independent - but they're now legal, independent countries.
