Says who? You have absolutely no idea what criteria would be demanded to rejoin. I’d say both of those things would be non-negotiable
*Looks over the water and sees counties in the EU / EFTA / CU /SM without the euro or shengen*
Are we? My salary has increased above inflation since we voted to leave the EU, my job is more secure than it was in 2016, my pension has grown and my house has nearly doubled in value. Brexit has had very little effect on my finances, and I doubt I’m a special case.
**** me, I'm beginning to think you actually are Douglas Ross.
Ta, Daffy.
and try and elect a Westminster government that will at least limit the damage
What westminster government would that be? It ain't a labour one as they have ruled out any significant rapproachment
*Looks over the water and sees counties in the EU / EFTA / CU /SM without the euro or shengen*
Those arrangements were negotiated decades ago. The goalposts have shifted very considerably since then.
The stumbling block to any arrangement is Freedom of Movement. Any arrangement involving access to the SM and CU will have that as the first condition. The UK has shown, and continues to show, that its too insular and racist to even countenance that
Those arrangements were negotiated decades ago. The goalposts have shifted very considerably since then
Once again, you seem to be privy to information those who disagree with you simply don't have access to. I like it. It reminds me of when THM used to tell us all about the secret negotiations only he knew about and how the grown ups were going to sort everything out and not to worry our pretty heads.
I know you can't reveal your sources at the top level of the EU but can you at least drop some completely random hints that don't actually mean anything to keep us guessing?
switerland or norway typoe deal does not mean the euro
“We’ll have to join the Euro” seems to be becoming the new “Turkey is about to join the EU”… in theory it could happen, in practice it absolutely won’t. Even if the Eurozone countries wanted us to join, and they don’t, we wouldn’t be ready for decades, and it wouldn’t happen without it being voted for.
The stumbling block to any arrangement is Freedom of Movement. Any arrangement involving access to the SM and CU will have that as the first condition. The UK has shown, and continues to show, that its too insular and racist to even countenance that
I agree.
That's why thinking that Labour is going to do something different from what they are saying they are going to do is incredibly naive.
Do not be surprised if you vote for Labour and they do exactly what they say they are going to do (or not do).
The stumbling block to any arrangement is Freedom of Movement. Any arrangement involving access to the SM and CU will have that as the first condition. The UK has shown, and continues to show, that its too insular and racist to even countenance that
Is the key thing
Any softening of brexit requires FOM and Starmer has ruled it out. so hard brexit is all thats left
Edit - and again you say UK when you mean england
Wales I don't know.
The goalposts have shifted very considerably since then
Absolutely which is why I'd be quite happy to see Labour promoting a Norway/Swiss deal rather than full membership. Leaving gave up privileges that will never be offered again, any European politician offering the same deal again would be committing political suicide. There's an ocean between European and British public opinion, well a channel or sea anyhow. The common ground ends at a Swiss deal.
The bottom line is that the UK population will not vote for any party that advocates Freedom of Movement
Thats it
So we are where we are
Thats democracy for you
LOL.
"Not my fantasy, I just made it up".
Siri, define fantasy.
To the average man in the street whether we use the Pound, Euro or anything else it's irrelevant as long as they earn/spend in the same currency.
I lived in Germany when it went from Deutschmark to Euro, it just occurred and folk carried on.
The bottom line is that the
UKEnglish population will not vote for any party that advocates Freedom of MovementThats it
So we are where we are
Thats democracy for you
Scotland votes in parties that advocate FOM at every election but apart from that, I agree.
The bottom line is that the UK population will not vote for any party that advocates Freedom of Movement
A government could turn that around, eventually. They’d have to fight the press though, so perhaps addressing press ownership is step one towards a UK that isn’t so scared of people crossing borders and taking their jobs/homes/wives/biscuits.
Edit – and again you say UK when you mean england
*sigh*
You are part of the UK. The UK voted for Brexit.
I live in Greater Manchester. We voted to remain too, but we're stuck with the result the same as you are
Should we now demand an independence referendum too? The population of GM is actually more than half that of the whole of Scotland.
Telling people North of the border that their country is just like a region of England is just trolling. Please stop.
Telling people North of the border that their country is just like a region of England is just trolling. Please stop.
I think people should keep saying it. Every time an English person says Scotland is just another English region a Unionist gets their wings.
*Looks over the water and sees counties in the EU / EFTA / CU /SM without the euro or shengen*
We're talking about rejoining the EU, you know - the thing we left. A reminder of the 2016 question - "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Not the CU, or EFTA or......
There are some countries in the EU that don't have € or schengen, correct. But how many of these are historic agreements, such as the DK/SWE referred to just earlier? Show me someone that has joined the EU in recent years without agreeing to the Copenhagen criteria?
We will not rejoin the EU, at least not in anything like the short to medium term. We may yet get some of the other benefits if we negotiate nicely for them, and maybe we won't have to give up too much to get them. But right now that has to be pragmatically weighed against the disruption that re-opening all those debates has as well. You point to his saying he would not support rejoining as it has no economic benefit - the actual statement was 'at this stage'.
Would I like SKS to be more transparent on that as a possible future aim (closer co-operations) - yes, but right now it's about stabilising where we are, winning back power and then seeing where we can get to.
I lived in Germany when it went from Deutschmark to Euro, it just occurred and folk carried on.
The UK has been metric for over 50 years and you've still got loads of people who are incensed that they can't sell things in pounds and ounces, use inches to measure everything and pay for things in shillings
Hence Brexit
Every time an English person says Scotland is just another English region a Unionist gets their wings.
Nobody has said that. We've merely pointed out that Scotland is still part of the UK, whether you like it or not, and the UK overall vote was for Brexit.
How is that saying that its a region of England?
Just to repeat myself: the metropolitan areas of England were just as pro EU as Scotland, but we're still bound to the result, whether we like it or not (we don't!)
Would I like SKS to be more transparent on that as a possible future aim (closer co-operations) – yes, but right now it’s about stabilising where we are, winning back power and then seeing where we can get to.
So if Labour gets into power and SKS turns around and says, 'No SM, no CU, nothing that will give up our sovereignty' how are you going to react?
Are you going to say, 'That's not what he said he was going to do!' because that is exactly what he is saying he is going to do.
Or will you do some mental gymnastics and convince yourself that the UK is better off outside the CU/SM and it was a calculated decision to vote for him?
Or will you say, 'Dammit, not again!'
How is that saying that its a region of England?
OK, what is the difference between Scotland and just another English region, in your opinion?
Erm.. its a country with a devolved government
Do I win a prize?
So if Labour gets into power and SKS turns around and says, ‘No SM, no CU, nothing that will give up our sovereignty’ how are you going to react?
Labour won’t join the SM or CU in its first term, and probably not its second, if ever. The choice is between aggressively dividing us further from the rest of Europe, or the beginning of a very slow healing of relationships and moving towards greater cooperation.
If Labour campaigned on us being in the SM or CU in the near future, that would be a lie… they couldn’t make that happen even if the voters voted for it… and were overwhelmingly in favour of FoM. Any party selling you a return to SM & CU in the next parliamentary term isn’t being honest. It’ll take at least 10 years, and backing it at this election isn’t worth the risk of throwing the election to the Conservatives, and letting them spend another 5 years embedding us in customs and trade agreements with far off markets that make it even more difficult to move towards closer cooperation with the rest of Europe.
Any softening of brexit requires FOM
I don't think so. There are lots of harmonisations and agreements that would help trade without customs union, as I understand it.
Only very minor tinkering around the edges.
What are these things you say could help trade without CU and SM?
So if Labour gets into power and SKS turns around and says, ‘No SM, no CU, nothing that will give up our sovereignty’ how are you going to react?
First and foremost I'd wait until we actually get to election manifestos.
If we were voting on where things are right now. Then yes, it's a risk. But, do i still think they are more likely to migrate position over time, then yes.
As an English voter, who do i go for instead? Back to buses -
There's one that is going further away from where i want, and there's a nasty group of far right supporters on it as well meaning the journey won't be pleasant either.
There's a bus that is going somewhere closer to where i want to be.
And there's a bus that says it's going where i want, but it's currently on blocks, its engine in bits, and not a mechanic in sight. I suppose I could get on that one and watch everyone else.
or the beginning of a very slow healing of relationship and moving towards greater cooperation.
wishful thinking. Starmer has ruled out any significant cooperation
Erm.. its a country with a devolved government
Do I win a prize?
Yes, the realisation that Scotland has options that Greater Manchester doesn't.
So does your vote go to the less Brexity one as the other policies they bring are better for society. Or do you vote for a marginal party who might win a couple of seats?
The less Brexity one. I wish I had a zero Brexity one to vote for that stood a chance of actually achieving something but such is life these days.
Getting a labour government in power as soon as possible is about A LOT more than Brexit and our relationship with the EU
Just in case it was missed I think its too late now for Starmer to change course. His latest speech nailed labour so strongly to a hard brexit position
I'm just disgusted that he lies over Brexit and that he has become a hard brexiteer and I beleive this is both counterproductive electorally and makes the breakup of the UK far more likely
Labour are not less Brexity - Starmer has made that clear. He nailed his colours to the hard brexit mast very strongly
In England you have a realistic choice of hard brexit or hard brexit
There was an interview with Rachel Reeves in the Times on Saturday and she was saying there's no case at the minute for re-joining the EU. I can't link as it's behind paywall.
And The Times has had a very pro-Labour stance of late.
We need stability for at least 5 years not a hokey cokey approach to EU membership.
Baby steps for the first term of having Conservatives on opposition benches (if that happens)…
- a new veterinary agreement across all Ireland, all UK, and our continental neighbours
- guarantee that mainland UK will not reduce food standards for imports below EU/EEA levels
- mutual recognition of professional qualifications across as many sectors as possible
- return to full Horizon Europe research cooperation (and funding)
- Erasmus+ participation
…what can then happen in the second term? Depends on getting that lot working first, and closer working to make the Northern Ireland situation work. Gain trust across Europe, and with voters at home, and then see what can be done. It’s seven years away probably, fight this election first.
Starmer has made that clear.
To me his statement is a clear indication of intent to soften brexit. Are you new to politics?
Labour are not less Brexity – Starmer has made that clear. He nailed his colours to the hard brexit mast very strongly
I can't find what you're referring to, what did he actually say that nailed his colours to the mast. Because (and not being obstructive) my googling keeps returning 'at this stage' type caveats
(edit - similar to muffin-man's report of Reeves)
As an English voter, who do i go for instead?
I've thought about this. Tories are out, obviously.
Assuming the manifesto reflects what SKS is saying now there's no point in voting for Labour. I can only go by what parties are saying. If I vote based on the hope that they gave me a wink and everything is going to be alright then I would only have myself to blame if it turned out they were moving no closer to the EU after getting elected.
The problem with the Lib Dems is they will sacrifice literally any of their policies for a sniff of power so you have no idea what you are voting for with them.
I would vote for the Greens. Yes, it's a wasted vote but a wasted vote is better than a vote for something which is the opposite of what you actually want.
Starmer ruled out return to EU, CU, SM and FOM.
As an English voter, who do i go for instead?
a bloody difficult question and one I am glad I don't have to face
I guess the party most likely to defeat the tories in your constituency or if its a safe seat greens ( are there going to be any safe tory seats?)
Personally I would find it very hard to vote labour because of their hard brexit anti democratic stance but I might be able to hold my nose long enough in a labour / tory marginal
A Swiss deal simply wouldn’t work for Britain. We’ll have a stronger trading relationship and we’ll reduce red tape for British business – but freedom of movement is a red line for me. It was part of the deal of being in the EU but since we left I’ve been clear it won’t come back under my government.”
direct quote Ruling out FOM which rules out CU or SM
The problem with the Lib Dems is they will sacrifice literally any of their policies for a sniff of power
I think that's a bit ridiculous, they let go of some manifesto commitments to form a coalition, but it was surely a lot better than what came after.
I'd be happy voting either LD or Green, the local candidates are quite good (so was the Labour guy actually).
Every vote is a wasted vote round here anyway, so <shrug> but at least I won't be counted as one of the 80% voting for delusional "brexit benefits" and against FoM etc.
it’s a wasted vote but a wasted vote is better than a vote for something which is the opposite of what you actually want.
Labour are also pledging a number of policies I do want - it's not black and white. And unless TJ points me to a 'never going back into Europe' statement, it's not even enough right now to be a red line issue. Long game, and all that
Starmer ruled out return to EU, CU, SM and FOM.
So you keep saying. Link or paste of a transcript would be very helpful, old bean. Because as i said, "my googling keeps returning ‘at this stage’ type caveats"
