Yes Brexit has happened but the only way to “make it work” is some form of SM/CU membership. Until labour argue in that direction they won’t get my vote, simples.
Pretty sure they will once they get elected. That's when they will have the platform and the time to do change how things are.
I’d like to see the opinion poll of voters, split by current voting intention on the question
I'd expect them to have already looked at that, however their manifesto needs to be agreed at the conference remember.
I'm all for a bait and switch on this, if that's what it takes.
There is no bus that goes to the destination we want. We can stamp about why there isn't, or get on one that gets us closer to where we need to be and then work out how to get the rest of the way.
Not voting Labour because they aren't exactly one's preferred vision of what you think a Labour party should look like is partly why the Tories are currently the most successful political party in the known universe.
The bigger Labour's vote share, the more likely it is that they will be emboldened to enact the more radical policies that lots of folks on the left want to see.
+1 to both of those.
Not voting Labour because they aren’t exactly one’s preferred vision of what you think a Labour party should look like is partly why the Tories are currently the most successful political party in the known universe.
The bigger Labour’s vote share, the more likely it is that they will be emboldened to enact the more radical policies that lots of folks on the left want to see.
Amen.
The bigger Labour’s vote share, the more likely it is that they will be emboldened to enact the more radical policies that lots of folks on the left want to see.
The second part of that sentence is, 'I hope'.
That's the problem with voting for parties based on what you hope they are going to do, rather than what they say they are going to do. If, after you vote for them and they get elected, they turn around and do what they say they were going to do you really can't complain, can you?
Not voting Labour because they aren’t exactly one’s preferred vision of what you think a Labour party should look like
I will not vote labour while they are a party of the centre right and a brexiteer party. Its not they are not my " preferred vision" its that they stand for things I am unable to accept. No rapprochement with the EU. anti immigration, pro privitisation of the NHS, more austerity, anti democratic. How can I vote for a party whose main policies I abhor?
From where I sit they have become tory lite. fortunately I have the opportunity to vote for 2 pro EU parties of the left. I feel sorry for English voters who don't have that choice. If i was in England I might be able to hold my nose and vote for them.
however their manifesto needs to be agreed at the conference remember.
I don't think this is true and hasn't been since Blair removed it anyone want to correct me? The manifesto is what Starmer wants it to be ( I'm not sure this is a bad thing but thats a different argument)
hence Starmer has said he will ignore the conference vote on PR
Not voting Labour because they aren’t exactly one’s preferred vision of what you think a Labour party should look like is partly why the Tories are currently the most successful political party in the known universe.
The bigger Labour’s vote share, the more likely it is that they will be emboldened to enact the more radical policies that lots of folks on the left want to see.
An SNP seat isn't a Tory seat and is left-of-centre - Labour has to understand that they will have to work with the SNP.
We can stamp about why there isn’t, or get on one that gets us closer to where we need to be and then work out how to get the rest of the way.
How exactly does "no economic case for rejoining" and "making brexit work" get us anywhere? Hate to tell you they were lying, that's not a bus, that's a conservatory. It might hoover up more of the "not massive bastards" unionist vote up here but offers nothing to the rest of the folk that would otherwise vote for them.
As for not voting for Labour being a vote for the tories, FFS...
How exactly does “no economic case for rejoining” and “making brexit work” get us anywhere?
Rejoining would mean having to accede to all the requirements of a new membership and lose the controls that we previously had. Instead we need to to find solutions to a post Brexit non-EU membership that work in the broad interests of the country.
It isn't in our interests (at this stage) to rejoin. It is in our interests to find workable solutions that get us if not exactly at the table, at least in the same room as the table.
Longer term - who knows? maybe full membership with all that entails is our future? Maybe something happens that enables us to get closer to our prior privileged position? Neither of them will be achievable if we're still outside the room flinging stones at the window.
Instead we need to to find solutions to a post Brexit non-EU membership that work in the broad interests of the country.
Which are? remember the massive loss in trade, the massive loss in tax take, all the industry moving out of the UK , the loss of EU workers etc etc
How can all the problems of brexit be solved without rejoin?
My view is that I'm more likely to get the sorts of policies that i want to see enacted if I vote Labour than if I vote Tory. In the system we have those are my choices. End of discussion.
hence Starmer has said he will ignore the conference vote on PR
There isn't an overwhelming constituency in the UK for PR, and it isn't the thing that needs to be sorted out in the next election. But, If you have a Labour govt with a stonking majority the pressure to enact radical policies becomes unrelenting. If a good proportion of your voting block of MPs will vote for your policies only on condition on their own wish list, the more likely it is to happen. So if you want PR again, vote for party that's more likely than not to enact it. The Tories never will. So that makes your choice more straightforward.
How exactly does “no economic case for rejoining” and “making brexit work” get us anywhere?
Well, they could get Labour into power which would get us somewhere. The 'Make Brexit Work' slogan is very obviously sop to Brexiteers whilst being a cover for any closer ties with EU short of a full rejoin. Expect a significant softening of Brexit.
Also, last time I looked there were a lot of people who thought it was a bad idea but also felt that it was important to stick to the result anyway because of their understanding of democratic principles.
Expect a significant softening of Brexit.
Why? Starmer has totally ruled it out.
There isn’t an overwhelming constituency in the UK for PR,
England not UK. We love our PR systems here. Even the tories do as it got them some seats
Which are? remember the massive loss in trade, the massive loss in tax take, all the industry moving out of the UK , the loss of EU workers etc etc
I'm not an international trade expert, or a politician but there is potential to have closer collaborations without rejoining as a full member. As has been often mooted, eg: by trade arrangements - more like NO, or CH, or....
A policy of full join would be electoral suicide - loss of a central bank, currency, etc....is just too unpalatable. maybe in the longer term, as we evolve as a European collaborator then the pendulum might swing back, but it isn't there now.
We'll probably never have it as good as we did before, we have to accept that.
What does your rejoin look like. Are you willing to give up currency, for example?
Why? Starmer has totally ruled it out.
But you know why he's saying that. There is a constituency from whom needs the votes from who are wanting to hear the Labour leader say that he is not going to take them back into the EU now. In time, Labour can work on them to change their minds, Labour have concluded that cannot be done before a GE.
I understand the strategy and I'm willing to give Labour my vote on the basis that in time they are the party that I think will be more likely to move towards closer economic ties with Europe and the SM which in turn will help fund the revitalisation of those areas that felt sufficiently ignored to vote for Brexit. As they become better educated and have more skilled employment opportunities they will want [in turn] better opportunities for their children who will want naturally to see their futures in Europe.
In the meantime the Tories are not going to ever do any of that shit. For me that's pretty much the start middle and finish of the conversation. The rest is fantasy politics.
Starmer has totally ruled it out.
Has he?
fortunately I have the opportunity to vote for 2 pro EU parties of the left.
@tjagain forgive my ignorance but do these parties stand a chance of being elected where you vote?
I understand the strategy and I’m willing to give Labour my vote on the basis that in time they are the party that I think will be more likely to move towards closer economic ties with Europe and the SM which in turn will help fund the revitalisation of those areas that felt sufficiently ignored to vote for Brexit. As they become better educated and have more skilled employment opportunities they will want [in turn] better opportunities for their children who will want naturally to see their futures in Europe.
In the meantime the Tories are not going to ever do any of that shit. For me that’s pretty much the start middle and finish of the conversation. The rest is fantasy politics.
This pretty much sums up my view. At some point where I live (southern England) if I would prefer another party to be in charge, pragmatic (or tactical) voting is probably more useful than a principled vote for a party that doesn't stand a snowball's chance.
What does your rejoin look like. Are you willing to give up currency, for example?
If people think brexit was a bad idea, giving up the pound would much, much worse. For that reason alone we will never rejoin the EU, and nor should we. Almost all the economic power we have as a country comes from the fact that we control our own currency. Giving that power away would be economic suicide.
Giving that power away would be economic suicide.
Remind me again what currency the Germans and French use, and how large their economies are?
Edit: Certainly in better health than ours right now.
Big assumption there Dazh. The French, to pull one example, wouldn't want to be in a currency union with us, but would probably be happy with SM and CU or something close to it. Plenty of examples of European countries (both EU members and non-members) that aren't in the Euro, and won't be anytime soon, if ever... but aren't trying to be outside the market of Europe in the hope of slightly more trade with the USA, or wherever.
Personally, I think a larger and stronger Eurozone is exactly what Europe needs to be able to deal with USA/China in the coming decades, and the UK being within it would be the best way to achieve that... and that would benefit us economically greatly. But that's not going to happen, nor does it need to happen for us to build bridges with our neighbours.
I saw a poll recently that suggested that while there maybe a majority that want to rejoin the EU, the numbers fall significantly once you start talking to folks about adopting the Euro as well - to something like 30-35% in favour. Incidentally that's also true of the Scots who're in favour of independence and re-joining the EU. Once the Euro gets mentioned, the vote falls away.
A swiss-style deal has already been offered by the EU, Dazh. A sort of pay-as-you-go trade deal that only requires regulatory allignment. IMO that is why the Tories are burning EU legislation as fast as possible to make it as complicated as possible to implement such a deal.
Almost all the economic power we have as a country comes from the fact that we control our own currency. Giving that power away would be economic suicide.
surely this is nonsense on so many levels
Not least of which because all this economic power doesnt seem to have done much good for our economy, arguably given the inequalities & poor outlook for our economy compared to similar countries with the € it may have made things much worse
Britain was a main driver of financial regulation within the EU, even out of the EZ, so within it could have considerably more influence
Besides as Kelvin points out plenty of countries will likely never sign up to the €
Will be interesting to see what happens were Scotland to sign up to the €
the numbers fall significantly once you start talking to folks about adopting the Euro as well
And we (UK or rUK, an indy Scotland might decide otherwise when faced with the choices) won't join the Euro. Europe is a whole load of different agreements and cooperations that don't fit neatly inside the EU. We have non-members using the Euro, members not using the Euro, non-members inside Schengen, members outside Schengen... etc. If we adopt a closer relationship with the rest of Europe it will not be in the same all in manner as France or Germany... whether that relationship is as an EU member or not.
Yes @Edukator, the Brexit we have now is Tories on Steroids. It doesn't have to be this way, and the problems that we have currently 1. all occurred to a greater or lesser extent when we were members before, and 2. can be largely reversed by different spending priorities within the UK. I fully expect Labour to announce some sort of closer economic ties that isn't even part membership along the lines of Norway* or Switzerland
* wasn't this Farages preferred option?
* wasn’t this Farages preferred option?
Part of the big bait and switch. Many people voted for exactly that back in 2016.
Neither Labour nor Tory will support the policy I consider vital to getting my vote. Labour has promised not to work with the party that will support that policy. I certainly cannot vote for Labour on the basis of "ahh they're saying one thing but don't worry they're actually going to do the opposite" Therefore it will be SNP for me.
A lot of the UK ecomomic power comes from the City but it's not because of the pound, it's because of the various services provided to hide money away in tax havens, concentrate profits where taxes are low and place money in off-shore trusts. Brexit has allowed the continued provision of those services which recent EU legislation attempts to limit. The current regulatory landscape is one of the reasons the Tories wanted Brexit and why they don't want a swiss-style deal that would put the City under the same scrutiny as Switzerland now is. I can only assume that Stamer's opposition to such a Swiss-style deal is because he too wishes to maintain the City's ability to money launder.
All the people fantasising that if only Starmer wins, he'll do a reverse ferret and ditch all the current rhetoric in favour of pro-EU policies....
It's sad to see. Didn't you learn your lesson in 2017, 2019 when "80% voted for pro-brexit parties" and the Labour party subsequently fell in lock-step to the Tory plans and whipped for and voted for Brexit?
Fool you once, shame on them. Fool you twice, shame on you. Fool you three times, you're past reason.
Making up nonsense about having to joint the Euro is desperate straw-clutching. Firstly, "rejoin" is years off, doesn't mean we can't join SM and CU much faster, a promise to do this would get my vote (I'd even vote Tory if they promised this). Secondly, we don't have to adopt the Euro, it's a vague political statement that would never be enacted unless and until we were strongly in favour, which.
Remind me again what currency the Germans and French use, and how large their economies are?
One of the justifiable complaints about the Euro is how it serves Germany in particular at the expense of other countries in the Euro. France gets its bonuses in other forms again often at cost to others.
Giving up a independent currency does reduce your options massively. Just ask the Greeks or Spanish.
The question is whether the other benefits outweigh it.
Personally I am rather dubious about the Euro since for a shared currency to work well you do need a lot of integration of other fiscal controls. At the moment the EU and Euro are in a awkward and risky halfway house.
I think their position is that they accept that Brexit has occurred. I don’t know is you missed it but there was a vote an everything.
something something democracy…
Ah, Yeah, I actually remember; the non-binding referendum back then (the referendum that wasn’t actually a referendum).
I also remember ‘lending’ my vote to Labour when May called her snap election. Apparently I voted for Brexit then, so now that Labour have specifically ruled out any meaningful future engagement with the EU (SM, FoM, etc.) then I’ll not be making that mistake again.
Fortunately I have an alternative that is actually much more representative of my beliefs… and whats more, highly likely to get voted back in (and represent these for me). Guess that’s democracy.
Awkward and risky compared to the UK's situation, is that?
All the people fantasising that if only Starmer wins, he’ll do a reverse ferret and ditch all the current rhetoric in favour of pro-EU policies….
It’s sad to see. Didn’t you learn your lesson in 2017, 2019 when “80% voted for pro-brexit parties” and the Labour party subsequently fell in lock-step to the Tory plans and whipped for and voted for Brexit?
Fool you once, shame on them. Fool you twice, shame on you. Fool you three times, you’re past reason.
Yes, that’s more or less what I was just trying to say too…
Greece and Spain suffered from Merkel's refusal of Eurobonds in the PIGS period but the EU has learned form that mistake and Corona bonds bailed out both Greece and Spain.
Fool you once, shame on them. Fool you twice, shame on you. Fool you three times, you’re past reason.
I'm not expecting miracles, I would just like to have someone a bit less Tory in power. That's the most I can hope for right now.
Awkward and risky compared to the UK’s situation, is that?
It has its own set of issues. Which is the main tragedy of brexit that some quite handy exemptions were given up.
Without those it would need revaluating whether the benefits outweigh the costs.
A lot of the UK ecomomic power comes from the City but it’s not because of the pound
Where does the city get it's money from? You can't have lots of pounds until someone creates them, and that someone is the Bank of England, which is owned and controlled by the UK government.
I’m not expecting miracles, I would just like to have someone a bit less Tory in power.
But what you like isn't available.
There's only 2 parties capable of winning a general election in the UK. One very Brexity and one less Brexity but not prepared to change anything (in the short/medium term).
So does your vote go to the less Brexity one as the other policies they bring are better for society. Or do you vote for a marginal party who might win a couple of seats?
All the people fantasising that if only Starmer wins, he’ll do a reverse ferret
I'm not fantasising that at all, my vote for Labour is simply that they're more likely to enact policies that are closer to the ones I want to see than the Tories are. UK elections are a two horse race, choose the party that looks more like the one that aligns with your own thoughts. I don't expect them to be exactly what i want. They never will be. As an individual voter that's all I can do.
That's it.
Where does the city get it’s money from?
Various places. As a starter for ten look at the FTSE100 to see how many are international companies which have most staff and profits made overseas.
Or Eurobonds for that matter.
All the people fantasising that if only Starmer wins, he’ll do a reverse ferret and ditch all the current rhetoric in favour of pro-EU policies….
Nothing to do with fantasy, that is just my thoughts on what will happen. Let's find out.
Various places.
Are you suggesting that the city of London doesn't deal mostly with pounds sterling?
