Point taken but your instruction is harshly worded to say the least 🙂
We keep being told on here that brexit is over. Multiple times. We have not even finished the negotiations yet nor implemented the withdrawal agreement and there clearly are major battles still to come both at westminster adn with the EU. Brexit clearly is going to be a major issue at the next election
I do understand the position labour believe they are in and why they are cautious. I strongly believe it to be the wrong policy given that public opinion is moving to rejoin and that is now the majority view and in appeasing those racists in a few northern England constituencies he is abandoning the majority in the UK
I am totally frustrated by Starmers lies. " no economic case to rejoin" labour will " make brexit work" Both are lies
Point taken but your instruction is harshly worded to say the least
I was trying my best to be as moderate as possible.
We keep being told on here that brexit is over.
Well. A few posters keep posting that. I don't think that's any more than the opinions of a few people. That's not particularly significant. Objectively, Brexit is not over of course for the reasons you state - we will always be right next door to the EU and any time we have trouble (which is likely to be often) it will be brought up again.
I do understand the position labour believe they are in and why they are cautious. I strongly believe it to be the wrong policy
It'll change when it needs to change. Labour will be watching polls and judging mood in certain areas. Starmer is a genuine remainer I'm fairly sure, so he will be as pro-EU as he is able to be given his position.
This is the fundamental problem of democracy of course. You may know what's right and you may want to do what's right but you can only do what voters think is right, otherwise you won't get to do anything at all.
More cash - I reopened this thread in an attempt to keep it off others and stinking them up
but you can only do what voters think is right,
Majority view is brexit is a mistake and we should rejoin. Starmer is not following that so he is not doing what the voters think is right
i also want him to show leadership on this issue. He has blown the chance. and has shown zero leadership
Majority view is brexit is a mistake and we should rejoin.
It is, but under FPTP it isn't the majority that gets to decide. The swing voters are the decision makers. If we had PR, your argument world be correct, but we don't.
Good point
Majority view is brexit is a mistake and we should rejoin. Starmer is not following that so he is not doing what the voters think is right
It's more complex than that. There are many issues affecting who'll vote for which party. For example there's no point promoting a policy that will appeal to people who'll never vote for you for other reasons. The biggest Labour loss last time was the 'red wall' and those are a key sector he'll need to get back, and they may well be alienated by a pro-EU stance.
In fact, 'make brexit work' is a pretty open ended statement, that can mean anything short of actual rejoining, so there's loads of wiggle room. I think they probably have many people focusing closely on this. Also, as I understand it, Labour policies have to be voted on at the conference so they also need to be things that the membership wants and the members are more likely to vote according to their own preferences not those of the people whose votes the need.
You make it sound so very simple, and I don't think it is.
EDIT onewheelgood put it more concisely.
i also want him to show leadership on this issue. He has blown the chance. and has shown zero leadership
Well what do you think 'leadership' means? Is it making everyone agree with you? Or is it finding a compromise? His main aim is to get Labour elected.
to me “make brexit work” means...
To me it's just another empty soundbite of the kind that got us here in the first place.
Leadership on this one is leading and shaping public opinion. LIke Sturgeon has done
IMO he should have been making the tories own brexit and making sure the population know that the blame for much of the mess we are in is down to brexit
NHS crisis " Tory brexit created staff shortages and medicines shortages"
Inflation - half of the inflation we have had is down to brexit So cost of living crisis - its the tories fault for brexit
Loss of trade - brexit and tories fault etc etc
He should have been hammering away at this for the last 6 years.
Instead he has taken ownership of brexit and lost his biggest weapon and also lost the best way to get out of this mess. I am disgusted he is continually lying over brexit.
To me it’s just another empty soundbite of the kind that got us here in the first place.
Build back better!
Take back control!
Brexit means Brexit!
Facepalm dot Jpeg!
Starmer is certainly looking to the tories for inspiration.
Leadership on this one is leading and shaping public opinion.
You mean trying to persuade leavers to become remainers? Er yeah good luck with that.
Some things are shapable, some are not.
Those floating voters?
Are you really sure that if rightfully blaming tories for brexit and all the damage caused would not over a period of years have shifted public opinion?
Leadership on this one is leading and shaping public opinion. LIke Sturgeon has done
Leadership? Some don't agree but I think she has her style.
IMO he should have been making the tories own brexit and making sure the population know that the blame for much of the mess we are in is down to brexit
To split the country further? Does he want to be known as a "splitter"?
NHS crisis ” Tory brexit created staff shortages and medicines shortages”
Nothing to do with brexit but rather incompetent management at all levels, refer to all politicians and parties. The NHS problems have persisted for a long time.
Inflation – half of the inflation we have had is down to brexit So cost of living crisis – its the tories fault for brexit
I doubt half of it is down to brexit, minimum really. Brexit might cause a lot of tough competitions from EU, normal in any business - like barriers etc, but the elephant is in the room but most just can't admit that the biggest cause of inflation is the energy crisis with the war in Ukraine. Then the other contributing factor is the Covid-19 backlog/shortage.
Loss of trade – brexit and tories fault etc etc
That's called competitive business retaliation. Do you think Scotland will have an easy ride with trade with the rest of UK if Scotland has gained independence?
He should have been hammering away at this for the last 6 years.
Brexit feels like yesterday coz many agreement/disagreement in trade is still under negotiation etc. It has not even started yet.
Instead he has taken ownership of brexit and lost his biggest weapon and also lost the best way to get out of this mess. I am disgusted he is continually lying over brexit.
Well, for a start he can sort out NHS problems first before he tries something beyond his means.
Some things are shapeable and some things are shaping themselves. A few million of those old Brexity types have already died to be replaced by young voters who are pissed that their grandparents and great grand parents have made them prisoners of the British Isles. Starmer is pandering to a dying breed of elector. labour voters tend to be younger and pro EU, why he is pandering to racist grandads I have no idea.
He cannot sort the NHS outside of the EU unless he continues stripping staff from red list countries. We need to import healthcare staff and it will take 6 years minimum after the election for new nurses to be trained in the UK and more like 15 for doctors
tories have already reduced the entry requirements for nurses so we can more easily strip them from those red list countries
MOlgrips - public opinion has already shifted massively on brexit until rejoin is now the majority opinion. How much further woyuld it have swung with Starmer doing as I suggest. Many brexiteers have already changed their minds even tory voters
Some things are shapeable and some things are shaping themselves. A few million of those old Brexity types have already died to be replaced by young voters who are pissed that their grandparents and great grand parents have made them prisoners of the British Isles.
I doubt the young voters have missed out on "globalisation".
Starmer is pandering to a dying breed of elector. labour voters tend to be younger and pro EU, why he is pandering to racist grandads I have no idea.
If he cannot be voted in what can he do? He needs the votes first before even attempting to do something else.
He cannot sort the NHS outside of the EU unless he continues stripping staff from red list countries.
Sounds like the domestic labour force does not want to join NHS. i.e. a sector that's not attractive enough for the younger generation to join.
We need to import healthcare staff and it will take 6 years minimum after the election for new nurses to be trained in the UK and more like 15 for doctors
Might as well make the sector more attractive first before starting to import staff from overseas.
tories have already reduced the entry requirements for nurses so we can more easily strip them from those red list countries
That's not the solution. The sector needs to be made more attractive first for domestic labour force.
TJ: you're retired now, aren't you? Get yourself down to that there London and offer your services as a political analyst for SKS! Go tell him to pull on his big boy pants! 😄
I can see both sides of the argument. There's definitely two different styles of leadership that could be useful here. "Quiet consensus" v "Firebrand".
I'm guessing your somewhat combative style prefers the Firebrand type 😉
The basic point is that Starmer isn’t showing leadership at all, he’s only showing followership. And by arguing for Brexit these past years, he’s a drag on public opinion.
Public opinion has now clearly turned against Brexit, it would have done so sooner and more decisively had he not been so cowardly and instead dared to speak some sense about it.
Thats my point.
Also by taking the stance he has done he makes recovery much harder as he is dead set against any meaningful rapprochement with the EU
Labour has a significant poll lead while maintaining the position that they’re not going to rejoin the EU.
Agreed Nickc but its very soft being more of an anti tory vote than a pro labour one from the polling
I'm just disgusted at his attitude and lies about brexit while I understand "don't scare the horses" in doing so he is abandoning large parts of the UK and the population. I would love to be able to vote labour again but can't while labour support brexit,
That’s not the solution.
It’s what is actually happening though. And it is what people warned would happen. Sums up the whole Brexit problem neatly really. The gap between the Brexit people voted for, and the inevitable result of their vote. People were promised that leaving would reduced demand on the NHS, increase the resources available to to it [ remind yourself with this video ], remove the need to recruit from abroad. The truth is that there was never going it be a fall in demand, and Brexit would empower those politicians who pushed for it to happen who also happened to be those least interested in increasing NHS resources to the levels required. And you can’t magic staff from nowhere, it takes time and training, and, again, Brexit empowered Brexit backing politicians who weren’t interested in prioritising that, so we’ll have lost at least another 8 years with them in control. So, in the short term, because people voted for Brexit and to Get Brexit Done, we still have to recruit from abroad to fill the gaps in the workforces. Telling the Europeans they weren’t welcome (in law in recent years, as well as signalling our hostile intentions so clearly before and after the referendum) means we are recruiting from elsewhere. As TJ says.
How much further woyuld it have swung with Starmer doing as I suggest
I'm sure they've done plenty of analysis on this...
Also - he's the leader of a party with a 22 point lead, and you're telling him he's doing it all wrong?
Also – he’s the leader of a party with a 22 point lead, and you’re telling him he’s doing it all wrong?
If it was down to him that would be a fair comment. However his personal lead over Sunak isnt exactly amazing and the overall lead is purely based on the tories hitting the self destruct.
Instead of taking advantage he is simply normalising their lies and allowing the pretence brexit wasnt a crap idea. The closest he has come is acknowledging why many voted out but even then he fails to say anything beyond platitudes.
I beleve so. If labour had unequivocally pinned the blame for the mess we are in as mainly due to brexit as it is and pinned that blame on the tories I believe labour would make more gains. I beleive his lies over brexit will come back to haunt him - not least in failing to make gains in Scotland. I believe 30 ish sets are there for the taking in Scotland with a pro EU labour party. Remain areas will be have a lot of abstensions as remainers / rejoiners have no one bar the discredited lib dems to vote for in England.
As it is the SNP are able to portray labour quite rightly as tory lite brexit party which is what they have become due to Starmers craven capitulation to those red wall racists and the right wing press. There is now not even a pretense of being leftish nor internationalist in out look.
He is basically letting the tories off the hook and it will come back to haunt him
too late now tho
Well, I disagree. I think that if started banging on about what a stupid idea Brexit was his poll lead would be smaller, as many people who voted for Brexit would feel attacked and be less inclined to vote for him. That's how people work.
We get it TJ, you want a Labour Party telling Brexit voters they were wrong. Starmer might have a better idea of how that would play out in key seats in England than you (or any of us) do… we can be pretty sure it’s a calculated move, not done on a whim. In key seats Corbyn, Brexit and being seen as not backing Britain came up as the big vote losers… hence the long painful period of “new leadership” banner pushing with flags in the background, and now the “take back control” label being hung on the bill that’s come from Brown’s policy work on decentralising political power in the UK. I’m pretty sure there was a “Britain” or “Great” label, or perhaps both, smacked on the proposals that came from Miliband’s policy work on ramping up on shore renewables with state funding as well. Labour is attempting to persuade all voters that they have the ideas, and plans, for Britain. And that’s all of Britain, not just those of us who can see and are dismayed by the damage of Brexit… some if it irreversible, and some of it very slow to either reverse or mitigate.
You can achieve **** all in opposition.
Once in power you can hoof the manifesto down the road...
Why are Brexit voters the only ones that matter?
There are more remain voters than Brexit voters, and that ratio is increasing daily. Starmer is chasing a dying rump of the electorate, pandering to them by repeating the lies that they fell for 7 years ago.
Brexit good, 34%
Brexit bad, 51%
Don't know 15%
Which is, you know, hopeful in a way, at least public mood may soon support a sensible narrative about trying to actually get on with our neighbours.
So that is a clear and significant shift in public opinion without anyone saying to english voters ( I assume the welsh nationalists have a similar stance to the scots but I don't know) that brexit was a mistake. How much more would it have shifted if Starmer had not veered to being a brexiteer? If he had told the truth?
I am sure that will shift further once we get to the election campaign as those pro european voices that currently are frozen out get some airtime.
Labour is attempting to persuade all voters that they have the ideas, and plans, for Britain. And that’s all of Britain,
Errmmm - not in the slightest
labour is saying that remainers don't count and they only have plans for part of England. Nothing for Scotland indeed they are saying the wishes of the scots electorate don't count at all. . All labour are interested in is racist brexit voters in the north of england
Sometimes in this life we get things wrong. I’ve been wrong many times. The trick is not to agonise over it - if you’re clearly not getting the results you wanted or expected, try something different, change your position.
That is a good thing, the sensible thing and the strong thing to do.
I’ve done it many times.
Why are Brexit voters the only ones that matter?
Electoral calculus, I expect.
You mean trying to persuade leavers to become remainers? Er yeah good luck with that.
Disagree, enough of them have died off, utterly embarrassed with their vote and/or changed their minds - it was only 52/48 at the top of their support.
IMO Starmer is aiming for the wrong audience and (luckily I live in Scotland) won't be getting my support as I've a proper left-of-centre who support my position on the EU to vote for, and who'll get into:
A - Govt in Scotland
B - probably enough seats into Westminster to make a difference, ie Starmer will need these pro-EU votes
C - continue making headway on independence
but can’t while labour support brexit,
I think their position is that they accept that Brexit has occurred. I don't know is you missed it but there was a vote an everything.
something something democracy...
IMO labour have become a brexit party supporting brexit. also telling lies about it. When did they last say its a horrendous mistake that has badly damaged the country? they now are brexiteers to the detriment of the UK
This becomes obvious when you have two pro remain/ pro rejoin / leftish parties to vote for. I know you don't have that in England but here we do have
IMO labour have become a brexit party supporting brexit.
Accepting that Brexit has happened does not automatically make one a Brexiteer. This has been pointed out numerous time now.
When did they last say its a horrendous mistake that has badly damaged the country?
I can't remember, mostly as I think that Labour need the votes of many folks who voted out. Telling those voters that they made a horrendous mistake and are damaging the country perhaps isn't the sure-fire vote winner you may think it is.
I can’t remember, mostly as I think that Labour need the votes of many folks who voted out. Telling those voters that they made a horrendous mistake and are damaging the country perhaps isn’t the sure-fire vote winner you may think it is.
Again, disagree - and if we're wrong then it is the electorates desire to really **** the country, and until they stop with this desire there's nothing we can actually do about it. Will of the People and all that bollox.
Accepting that Brexit has happened does not automatically make one a Brexiteer.
Perhaps not but making statements like " there is no economic case for rejoin" and labour can " make brexit work" are the words of a brexiteer as both are lies.
labour have become a brexit supporting party. that is undeniable that makes them brexiteers.
Yes Brexit has happened but the only way to “make it work” is some form of SM/CU membership. Until labour argue in that direction they won’t get my vote, simples.
Accepting that Brexit has happened does not automatically make one a Brexiteer. This has been pointed out numerous time now.
Saying 'Brexit has happened' is as meaningless a phrase as 'Brexit means Brexit'.
Technically it's correct to say that Brexit has happened but at the same time we haven't yet figured out what our relationship with the EU is going to be so in that sense it hasn't yet happened.
I've said it numerous times now, but 'making Brexit work' is going to mean giving up sovereignty to the EU. Unless the policy is to completely isolate ourselves from the EU and have no agreements in place it has to happen that way.
Until the UK establishes what it's relationship with the EU looks like then Brexit still hasn't happened.
Unless the current situation is what the future relationship is going to look like. Then the UK is on it's way to becoming a proper basket case country.
I'd like to see the opinion poll of voters, split by current voting intention on the question
If Labour made reversing Brexit* a fundamental manifesto commitment would you be more. or less likely to vote for them in a GE.
Because I think labour would lose more voters than they would gain, and right now it's about getting into power with a majority that enables reforms across the piece.
* Brexit can't be reversed, we're out. We need to build relationships, beg to be allowed back in to participating in various cross-EU activities, and possibly look to rejoin in the future but that won't be under old allowances and entitlements. Much as I'd love to be able to wake up Patrick Ewing style and it's all a bad dream, the cake and eat it days are long gone.
